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I really Know why Eve don't get more Players....
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Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#101 - 2012-05-24 02:14:22 UTC
You do realize that you basically said "Eve Online is why Eve Online is a niche game". You're also overlooking something. It's only "niche" in comparison to WoW. It's not really all that niche at all compared to pretty much every other MMO on the market other than Star Wars.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-05-24 02:22:05 UTC
CCP's best option way back should of been to pull the plug when its obvious that too harsh was to much and 5k online. They could of then spent more time redeveloping Twight Sparkle Vampire online instead of a niche game requiring one person, multiple accounts, bloated numbers for the investors that they actually don't have 300,000 different players, and that everytime someone leaves EVE looses more then "1" player.
Typherian
Criterion.
Pandemic Legion
#103 - 2012-05-24 02:25:36 UTC
OK I'm still wondering where all these new players get ganked. I see plenty of hulks getting ganked but you can't really be a "new player" and be in a hulk.
Llewelyn
Doomheim
#104 - 2012-05-24 02:27:09 UTC
Didn't UO do something like this, resulting in massive inflation and a mass-exodus of players?
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-05-24 08:19:36 UTC
EVE just will have problems and lots of lag to deal with if the player base gets too large.
Human nature being what it is people like to mass at trading hubs like Jita.
So making the universe bigger to handle more players is just not going to work.
Everybody will want to be near Jita. Ok not everybody but say a given percentage of the player population will want to be near Jita.
What ever that number is. Say 25% of the player base. AS the player base grows so to does the load at Jita as 25% of the total will hang out in Jita. Until the game becomes unplayable do to lag. Tell them to go somewhere else hmm yea that will work in a sandbox game like EVE.

So regardless of what everybody else thinks about why this game does not get lots of players, I say none of that even matters and we should be happy we do not have too many players. Too many players=bad gaming experience with EVE.
What exactly is that sweet spot number? I do not know for sure but I think we are not too far away from having too many players online at once. I have seen at most about 45,000 online at the same time. I would guess at maybe 90,000 online we would be having problems all the time and not just at Jita. Every thing would be crowded try to anchor a container near a mining spot, good luck with that, try to explore and find a site that has not already been cleared out, good luck with that.
No a lot of players is not a good thing for this game. It could use some more before it gets too overloaded but not that many more. Imagine if the goons had 7,000 players or more online at once and all jumped into Jita to burn it? No too many players=bad.
Lexmana
#106 - 2012-05-24 08:22:38 UTC
OP is forgetting that EVE has grown its subscription base every year since launch.
Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#107 - 2012-05-24 09:38:36 UTC
Allyxy wrote:
I think I’m going to express now a very controversial opinion that will be prolly fought especially by veteran eve players.

However I feel I have to talk. Shocked

It seems that there is a “mantra” in eve that cannot be discussed because, for many players, it’is the fundamental reason why they play Eve… at the same time I think this is exactly the same reason why Eve is a relatively “Niche” game that, in it’s current format, cannot really aspire to a larger audience of players.

Before coming to the point, I’ve to say that I’ve been myself a game developer and now CEO of an IT firm, I also played a lot of games online and offline for many years, including many of the today online best-of-breed games and a core eve player since more than two years now running multiple accounts.

So, In my modest opinion, the MAIN big point why EVE, in its current form, is destined to remain a “core ppl game” with a relatively small number of players is this:

“PVP”

Wow PVP!!!!

Yes, this is the main reason why many of us like this game so much and this is exactly why much more ppl don’t like it.
It’s easily to check with relatives and friends the main problems they encounter when they get into the game, we all know about learning curve, scarce tutorial, cold interface, complex actions etc… however if you dig deeper, while some like to try pvp sooner or later, many more are completely scared by it, frustrated if they try it and, most important, they don’t want to care about competition!

Yes, think about it without prejudice: compared to the number of competitive ppl that like games like EVE today, many more prefer cooperative game environment.

Don’t tell me that EVE is cooperative…. I know it is, but most of the cooperation is always open to PVP and you have to plan all you work on the game, you corp, your alliance etc… around PVP.

A simplistic example: I met many many ppl that would love to join fleet where they cannot kill each other nor be attacked by other players etc… but just focus con carebearing things like exploration, plexing, mining etc…
Beware, I’m not saying remove PVP from EVE!

What I’m saying is that if we would like to have double players, or triple or ten times what we have today, EVE shall implement places where non-competitive, non-aggressive, friendly players can simply enjoy the fly in space and the sandbox universe (OBV Empire today is not the answer, way too much PVP takes place there).
Most non-pvp ppl don’t really want to care about win something against other players, but just fix their own simple targets and try to make those with some friends or even alone.

Someone could argue: do we really want 10 times more players in eve? Or 10 times more carebears?
My answer would be YESSSSS!!!! All life long!

At least three very good reasons:
1. We can finally have some (or some more) RL friends playing the game we love with us!
2. CCP will have 10 time more real life ISKS to provide us a much better game, with faster implementation and a bigger universe
3. We will have a bigger market, more options, more isks and overall more fun

To finish this long and probably boring issue, something for CCP:
Every time you say, advertise, write or in any other way put out sentences like “more shooting in face, more player wars etc…” while you push up the core-players for sure, you LOSE MANY MANY more potential players!

I had to say the above for the passion I have toward EVE, don’t shoot me now but if you want to I’m ready Bear

Allyxy
Lol



Problem solved, just implement it and we go on.

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !
Allyxy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2012-05-24 09:40:49 UTC
First of all I wish to thank all of you that expressed very interesting constructive opinion about this point.

As foreseen many veteran EVE players rant&raves a lot, probably scared by thinking that eventually CCP could listen to such opinions and ruins their(our?) belowed game.

As some of you clever guys recognize, without prejudice, enlarging the player base would be a big benefit for the game overall but the real problem is how to get in non PVP-ERS that are the large majority of potential players into Eve without ruining it's core.

I understand all the implication mentioned such as: risk vs reward, market instability due to safe mining, non symmetrical impact capabilities between PVP and NON-PVP part etc...
And yes these are true concerns! At the same time the fact the solution is not easy does not mean that the solution does not exists.

I think that also CCP understand that and it's first serious attempt to find broader solution was made with a lot of resources but, UNFORTUNATELY for us all, failed miserably.
I'm sure many of you already understand that I'm talking about Incarna.
Yes in the trial to getting fresh blood into the game big failure as CCP also admit
Even being a failure, Incarna has been imho, a good tentative to approach this problem in a new, creative, way without changing the core eve mechanics.

So I'd like to push you all to think in a broader way! Idea

There are still many things that can be put in place to solve the above problems and open EVE to a larger audience.
A few examples are:
1. Introduce "BOP" (Bind on Pickup) items available only in PVP space: this could be a big change since BOP items cannot be put on the market and can also be a very nice isk sink source also will allow overpowered modules that could provide much fun

2. Expand BOE items (Bind on Equip): items like rigs and implants.... imagine if in the "safe non-PVP zone" items are all BOE ...

3. Easy one: drastically reduce isk sources in non-pvp space but introduce fancy items that ppl would love to collect without impact on PVP

4. Make transition from pve to pvp areas much more long and complex and maybe expensive: pass throug a series of test and exams like a strong advanced tutorial before admission, and of course, segregate markets

5. Ah, one very brilliant idea posted a few comments up: remove stargates in non-pvp area! Let ppl to slowboating around, enjoy the scenery, fly low altitude on planet surfaces etc... no more gate camps! (in non-pvp areas obv). Actually this idea is quite cool for PVP area too but prolly deserve much more time to get tested well.

6. Introduce an "achievements" system for non-pvp players

7. In non-pvp system you could be able to fly a fighter or a small ship like "star-wars" type of game: first person perspective fast action moves, dive on a station or on a capital NPC ship and shoot arcade-style

8. ....

Many many things we don't want to see in current eve scenario could be a very nice addition to a slightly separate but interconnected world.... oh well... CCP is doing another already another attempt in the interconnected worlds direction.... did you see DUST? Oh well that's PVP only again sigh.


Yes iteration is nice, shooting in face is nice, blowing up ppl ships is nice.... but there could be more, much more, friends! Just be open don't fear to lose something if you want to gain much more!

Sincerely Yours, Allyxy Bear
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#109 - 2012-05-24 09:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirime Nolwe
You cant have the economy like we have at the moment with free and safe pve, that will make the market implode with the ISK growth that would be generated by those players (pve), we need to have destruction in the game and that destruction needs to be balanced with the generation of isk, otherwise EVE turns into any other MMO in the market.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#110 - 2012-05-24 09:52:39 UTC
Most popular MMOs have elves and wizards.

Therefore, to become more popular Eve must have elves and wizards.

Yes, it's a ludicrous suggestion. But it's no more ludicrous than the OP.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#111 - 2012-05-24 09:52:48 UTC
Mirime Nolwe wrote:
You cant have the economy like we have at the moment with free and safe pve, that will make the market implode with the ISK growth that would be generated by those players (pve), we need to have destruction in the game and that destruction needs to be balanced with the generation of isk, otherwise EVE turns into any other MMO in the market.

The Tears Must Flow
Plentath
Sparkle Motion.
#112 - 2012-05-24 09:59:53 UTC
Go play Perpetuum online.

It's a sandbox game that's very similar to EvE online.

It has a PVP flagging system so you can be 100% safe in "highsec"

Now, on their forums, you have people talking about being bored with the game and suggesting they remove the PVP flagging, and the devs state it will never be removed.

They also have almost no one playing the game. So, do the math on whether you think a sandbox game can exist and also provide 100% certainty to anything - as it really can't.
Plentath
Sparkle Motion.
#113 - 2012-05-24 10:02:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Plentath
Other ideas like yours:

"Our new Ferrari's seem to only have a niche market, shouldn't we make them have 5 seats? And a large boot?"

"The prices at our 5 star luxury restaurant are all too high. We need to add a $1.99 bargain meal to attract more customers. I'm just going to assume that introducing a lot of people who would buy that into an environment where people pay $500 for a bottle of wine can have no ill effects"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#114 - 2012-05-24 10:06:42 UTC
Allyxy wrote:
I think I’m going to express now a very controversial opinion that will be prolly fought especially by veteran eve players.

However I feel I have to talk. Shocked

It seems that there is a “mantra” in eve that cannot be discussed because, for many players, it’is the fundamental reason why they play Eve… at the same time I think this is exactly the same reason why Eve is a relatively “Niche” game that, in it’s current format, cannot really aspire to a larger audience of players.

Before coming to the point, I’ve to say that I’ve been myself a game developer and now CEO of an IT firm, I also played a lot of games online and offline for many years, including many of the today online best-of-breed games and a core eve player since more than two years now running multiple accounts.

So, In my modest opinion, the MAIN big point why EVE, in its current form, is destined to remain a “core ppl game” with a relatively small number of players is this:

“PVP”

Wow PVP!!!!

Yes, this is the main reason why many of us like this game so much and this is exactly why much more ppl don’t like it.
It’s easily to check with relatives and friends the main problems they encounter when they get into the game, we all know about learning curve, scarce tutorial, cold interface, complex actions etc… however if you dig deeper, while some like to try pvp sooner or later, many more are completely scared by it, frustrated if they try it and, most important, they don’t want to care about competition!

Yes, think about it without prejudice: compared to the number of competitive ppl that like games like EVE today, many more prefer cooperative game environment.

Don’t tell me that EVE is cooperative…. I know it is, but most of the cooperation is always open to PVP and you have to plan all you work on the game, you corp, your alliance etc… around PVP.

A simplistic example: I met many many ppl that would love to join fleet where they cannot kill each other nor be attacked by other players etc… but just focus con carebearing things like exploration, plexing, mining etc…
Beware, I’m not saying remove PVP from EVE!

What I’m saying is that if we would like to have double players, or triple or ten times what we have today, EVE shall implement places where non-competitive, non-aggressive, friendly players can simply enjoy the fly in space and the sandbox universe (OBV Empire today is not the answer, way too much PVP takes place there).
Most non-pvp ppl don’t really want to care about win something against other players, but just fix their own simple targets and try to make those with some friends or even alone.

Someone could argue: do we really want 10 times more players in eve? Or 10 times more carebears?
My answer would be YESSSSS!!!! All life long!

At least three very good reasons:
1. We can finally have some (or some more) RL friends playing the game we love with us!
2. CCP will have 10 time more real life ISKS to provide us a much better game, with faster implementation and a bigger universe
3. We will have a bigger market, more options, more isks and overall more fun

To finish this long and probably boring issue, something for CCP:
Every time you say, advertise, write or in any other way put out sentences like “more shooting in face, more player wars etc…” while you push up the core-players for sure, you LOSE MANY MANY more potential players!

I had to say the above for the passion I have toward EVE, don’t shoot me now but if you want to I’m ready Bear

Allyxy
Lol




In essence, you're advocating changing the only game of it's kind into being just like every other game.

Why not simply play any other kind of game, then? Why would anyone want to play EVE rather than some other MMO if it was no different to any of the others?

In short, I strongly dispute that making EVE into Generic PvE MMO #1392 would dectuple the subscriber count. EVE has more subscribers than the vast majority of subscription MMOs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2012-05-24 10:09:36 UTC
Allyxy wrote:
First of all I wish to thank all of you that expressed very interesting constructive opinion about this point.

As foreseen many veteran EVE players rant&raves a lot, probably scared by thinking that eventually CCP could listen to such opinions and ruins their(our?) belowed game.

As some of you clever guys recognize, without prejudice, enlarging the player base would be a big benefit for the game overall.

Sincerely Yours, Allyxy Bear




I think your assumption is wrong. This game has limits on how many players it can handle without inducing too much lag.
Game play would get so bad at some point that people would rage quit because of the lag issue alone.
Obviously we are not at that point now. But how many more can the game handle? The burn Jita event gives clues to how many the servers can handle. No I do not agree that more players =big benefit for the game overall. How many more are you talking about anyway? Ten times as many as we have now? 50 times? How big do you want it?
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#116 - 2012-05-24 10:10:37 UTC
Allyxy wrote:

As foreseen many veteran EVE players rant&raves a lot, probably scared by thinking that eventually CCP could listen to such opinions and ruins their(our?) belowed game.

As some of you clever guys recognize, without prejudice, enlarging the player base would be a big benefit for the game overall but the real problem is how to get in non PVP-ERS that are the large majority of potential players into Eve without ruining it's core.


So the 'clever' people are those that agree with you and the rest of us are 'ranting and raving'. EVE is not a 'mainstream' game and may not be better with a much larger playerbase and I'm not convinced that your ideas would help it any either. If they were interested we might as well rename New Eden to New Trammel to be blunt.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#117 - 2012-05-24 10:11:14 UTC
Allyxy wrote:
First of all I wish to thank all of you that expressed very interesting constructive opinion about this point.

As foreseen many veteran EVE players rant&raves a lot, probably scared by thinking that eventually CCP could listen to such opinions and ruins their(our?) belowed game.

As some of you clever guys recognize, without prejudice, enlarging the player base would be a big benefit for the game overall but the real problem is how to get in non PVP-ERS that are the large majority of potential players into Eve without ruining it's core.

I understand all the implication mentioned such as: risk vs reward, market instability due to safe mining, non symmetrical impact capabilities between PVP and NON-PVP part etc...
And yes these are true concerns! At the same time the fact the solution is not easy does not mean that the solution does not exists.

I think that also CCP understand that and it's first serious attempt to find broader solution was made with a lot of resources but, UNFORTUNATELY for us all, failed miserably.
I'm sure many of you already understand that I'm talking about Incarna.
Yes in the trial to getting fresh blood into the game big failure as CCP also admit
Even being a failure, Incarna has been imho, a good tentative to approach this problem in a new, creative, way without changing the core eve mechanics.

So I'd like to push you all to think in a broader way! Idea

There are still many things that can be put in place to solve the above problems and open EVE to a larger audience.
A few examples are:
1. Introduce "BOP" (Bind on Pickup) items available only in PVP space: this could be a big change since BOP items cannot be put on the market and can also be a very nice isk sink source also will allow overpowered modules that could provide much fun

2. Expand BOE items (Bind on Equip): items like rigs and implants.... imagine if in the "safe non-PVP zone" items are all BOE ...

3. Easy one: drastically reduce isk sources in non-pvp space but introduce fancy items that ppl would love to collect without impact on PVP

4. Make transition from pve to pvp areas much more long and complex and maybe expensive: pass throug a series of test and exams like a strong advanced tutorial before admission, and of course, segregate markets

5. Ah, one very brilliant idea posted a few comments up: remove stargates in non-pvp area! Let ppl to slowboating around, enjoy the scenery, fly low altitude on planet surfaces etc... no more gate camps! (in non-pvp areas obv). Actually this idea is quite cool for PVP area too but prolly deserve much more time to get tested well.

6. Introduce an "achievements" system for non-pvp players

7. In non-pvp system you could be able to fly a fighter or a small ship like "star-wars" type of game: first person perspective fast action moves, dive on a station or on a capital NPC ship and shoot arcade-style

8. ....

Many many things we don't want to see in current eve scenario could be a very nice addition to a slightly separate but interconnected world.... oh well... CCP is doing another already another attempt in the interconnected worlds direction.... did you see DUST? Oh well that's PVP only again sigh.


Yes iteration is nice, shooting in face is nice, blowing up ppl ships is nice.... but there could be more, much more, friends! Just be open don't fear to lose something if you want to gain much more!

Sincerely Yours, Allyxy Bear





If you want to play WoW with a science-fiction themed skin, as you evidently do, then my I suggest that the game you're looking for is already in existence.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Vyl Vit
#118 - 2012-05-24 10:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
When the BS gets this high it's customary to raise your hand over your head...to save the watches.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#119 - 2012-05-24 10:22:28 UTC
The best property of EvE is about it being different. Many unique features including the full, no safety belts sandbox stem from EvE trying being different.

The OP wants to make it like the other MMOs.

Anyone can foresee a little fail?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#120 - 2012-05-24 10:24:20 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Or, are you just evidence that delusional is the average EVE PvPer's mentality, like the guy who said you consent to PvP by logging on.


That's not "delusional" it's a simple statement of incontrovertible fact. Everything about EVE is based on PvP (not always combat PvP, but players contesting against other players in some way). Therefore, when you log in, you do so to engage in one kind of PvP or another, whether you wish to admit this or not.

Understanding that EVE is structured in this way is what makes the OP's "proposal" so nonsensical. it's like wanting to join in a game of football, but demanding that you be allowed a "no tackle" flag. Because I can play football without tackling you, right? Hey, what's the big deal - I can tackle plenty of other guys on the field, after all!

Of course, when you put it like that, the "proposal" becomes nonsensical; the OP is effectively asking for immunity from combat PvPers while retaining the ability to market PvP, mine PvP, industry PvP, etc. He wants special privileges on the playing field so he can score goals without risking conceding any.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016