Assembly Hall

Having more complexity for fleet fights is certainly one of the aims of this idea.


Regarding counters to an Aegis destroyer there were a couple of things I thought might work.

Position and Effectiveness
First, the limitations of positional requirements: distance to line of fire, and perhaps distance to protected target are factors in the effectiveness of the modules. The closer the Aegis destroyer is to the line of fire between attacker and protected target, the more time the module has to intercept incoming fire, hence the more effectively it places the countermeasure.

The notion of reaction time also generates the second factor for effectiveness. The closer the Aegis destroyer is to the midpoint of the line between attacker and protected target, the more effective the countermeasure is. Being too close to the attacker reduces reaction time, being too close to the protected target reduces the space in which protective measures may be deployed. The ideal position for an Aegis destroyer, then, is midway between attacker and protected target, directly on, or very near the line of fire.

Naturally, skills at using the modules, and the effectiveness of the modules themselves would also be a factor. Beyond that, the effectiveness should also be proportional to the size of the weapons system, in the same way that weapons system size affects ability to hit targets today. Incoming fire from a frigate would be nearly impossible to intercept, whereas incoming fire from a battleship is much easier to mitigate.

Counters to Aegis Destroyers
Given that position and size plays so important a role in the effectiveness of the defense, a number of tactics arise that would be effective against a large group of Aegis destroyers.

First, and foremost, sniper fit destroyers and assault frigates could have a distinct advantage against Aegis destroyers. Imagine a fleet composition as follows:

• Battleships, Command Ships, Battlecruisers, Cruisers and Logistics ships form the main fleet
• Auxiliary tackle and Ewar ships
• Aegis destroyers protecting bigger ships, including logis

The attacking fleet would have to punch through the defensive wall of Aegis destroyers in order to effectively attack the higher value targets they protect. Primary fire from blobs of BS, BC, or cruisers wouldn't be all that effective because the Aegis destroyers are protecting themselves as well as Logistics which can also lend support to the defensive wall.

But, Aegis destroyers are vulnerable to sniper-fit destroyers and assault frigates. Imagine using an initial wave of dessies and AFs to punch a hole in the wall. Imagine also, using tacklers to pin Aegis destroyers to pull them out of position. Even better, if we had another new module, say, a combat tractor beam, that could be used by a tackler to pull the destroyers out of position, we could have even richer sets of tactics.

While the initial wave of destroyers and AFs are working to create a hole, the larger fleet assets are maneuvering (!) to aim through that hole in the defense to start putting the hurt on the higher value assets of the defending fleet.

As you can see, there are richer tactics, maneuver, counter, target handling, that would arise from the addition of these capabilities. The role of wing command would become more important. The role of Logistics pilot would become more interesting (rep the wall, abandon the wall, rep the assets, run!).

Another alternative, given that range between attacker and protected target is important... Point-blank range with blasters becomes a reasonable countering tactic. Gallente buff!

Please help me refine the idea. Also, I ask for your support.

Help wanted: Please help identify the rough edges / holes / balance problems with this idea. If you can't find any, then please support

While I think that this is genuinely a good idea, there are a couple of problems, one that you point out yourself



For an "active" (individually targeted) solution: pretty useless. You'd have so many pilots throwing so much **** at each other that the human mind would just not cope with the sheer amount of information that it would need to deal with to selectively counter each and every possible target.

For a "passive" (similar to AoE weapons) solution: not difficult but then you've got the additional server load to counteract it as well as balancing out the module that would actually be used.


In a smaller fleet skirmish situation (20-30 pilots for example), your suggestion may hold water - but again your going to have issues in regards to whether the module in effect would be an active or a passive solution - and then the poor pilot controlling it would have to be extremely careful not to be primaried.

Also, racially, the Amarr would be the "strongest" against most of the weapons used by the other races - Lasers are being developed to shoot down missiles and, in space, would prove to be the most viable option - missiles are too slow to be completely effective and railguns are going to be near Phalanx/Goalkeeper levels of ROF to have a chance of striking its target (firing as they are, dumb munitions).

You'd also have to consider the extremely short range these weapons have (especially in the real world - CIWS generally only go around 2-4km , although some are as close as 350 metres) - and the rate of fire as well would be immense.


How would the modules act (assuming a specific one is added) in terms of % reduction of incoming rounds? Would it be skill dependant (e.g 5% per level) or a flat unmodified value (e.g. 35% destroyed)?

Anyone think this is a bad idea? Anyone have any refinements?

Also, a word about Command Ships:

Command Ships can already boost armor or shields for an entire fleet. But there is a maximum total of 3 that can have this effect at once on ships they are boosters for. They also require very high skill levels and are very expensive ships to fly. An Aegis destroyer, on the other hand, would be something requiring comparatively low skills, and be comparatively cheap. They would be something a "young" player could get into. Losing one would be an expected outcome of a fleet fight. They could be a new start on the path to Logistics Cruisers and Command Ships.

I think the idea is a good one. It is the kind of defense that is a natural outgrowth of warfare. You want defense in depth, if you can't keep the enemy from shooting at you (ECM) then you prevent them from hitting you (This idea) and if you can't do that , you mitigate the damage (Buffer tank) and if that is not enough, you repair (Logistics).

This idea is a good one for a niche that doesn't exist currently.

Implementation could be difficult. I am not sure that the game is built to do complex geometry for EVERY weapon firing. That could get pretty messy.

Perhaps a different way to implement it would be to make some pretty graphics that make it look like it is defending the sh1t out of someone but on the backend all it is doing is providing a boost to defense against some specific weapons.

I.E. when module "anti laser thingy" is active, a buff of "25% less damage from laser based weapons" is applied.

If it needs to be positional, then the simplest way would be to have it calculate a quick ratio of distance to friend vs distance to foe and apply that ratio to some flat damage modification percent.

Then it would work better the greater your ratio.

Conversely, if you made it an absolute ratio then you would have best results being EQUIDISTANT from each (the larger range is always the denominator so anything but equal results in a less than one ratio)

This would also be murder on the server as every shooter has to be calculated for in order to mitigate damage.

The other problem with this simplified approach is that I fear it will not provide the positional maneuver we are looking for since the complexity required to check if the destroyer is INTERVENING in the line of fire would be even harder to accomplish. That means that the "shield wall" you envision would be difficult to make happen.

Request for comments: Please critique and/or support.

I am not completely opposed to this, however do have a suggestion. Aegis cruisers of modern navies utilize point defense weapons (usually in the format of a 20-millimetersuggestion gatling gun linked to radar and acoustical detection). So with that I would say give these new ships "point defense batteries" that require you to target the aggressing missile boat and when missiles come in these batteries open up with an extremely lightweight ammunition in 4-shots per point defense battery. Let the Aegis detroyer fit 4 of them and give it a percentile chance to destroy the incoming missiles and you reduce incoming damage. Also make it so said batteries are purely defensive so that they cannot be utilized to engage other ships and you're golden.

Well, of course it wouldn't actually utilize ammunition until there were incoming fire, thus not blowing its wad prematurely so to speak. Furthermore, I'd say that it would be a sub-ammunition type, such as the defender missile, but would only take up a very small volume in the cargohold, the weapon systems themselves able to hold a significant amount of said ammunition, and having an obscene rate of fire (such as the Phalanx CIWS/C-RAM system).

That would also be good for the market, as it would create new BPOs to be seeded throughout the market (not just for the modules, but the ammunition), and would make for a nice mineral/ISK sink.

So in essence, everyone wins.

If you take a look at the post on tactics and countering (toward the top of this page) you'll note that the intention was to make it so that it would be fruitless to go after the main targets first. You'd now have to break the defense. Yet these destroyers would be highly vulnerable to frigates, sniping destroyers, and drones. In essence, there should be a sharp increase in the number of ships and modules destroyed.

The point is to change the combat mechanics to require some preliminary tactics before a battle reduces to a focus-fire exercise. It also means throwing lots of small, low-skill ships into the fray making an even larger role for newer players for both attack and defense. At the same time, you'd get gank-by-alpha protection in hi-sec through cooperative play (not resorting to solo Hulk buffs, for example) and within Concord rules.

I fixed this for you.

/thread.