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Missile trails kill my framerate and what is that sound???

First post
Author
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#81 - 2012-05-23 14:03:32 UTC
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
..................


;) lol and ur trolling here too? ;P

- Please link the vid of Astronauts roasting marshmellows on the Moon ;)

- That 'smoke' would be FROZEN matter

- Thank GOD there are AMD processors in industrial equipment \o/

- Ur not going to try and sell me a intel chip, r u? ;p


You'd need oxygen on the surface of the moon to sit around and roast marhmallows, but though you could in theory manufacture a marshmallow roaster to work under those conditions, it would be relatively pointless as you could not eat them. Not immediately anyway, which defeats the purpose.

Smoke would be frozen, (i.e: solid), depending on what it was comprised of wouldn't it. Every element has different states depending on pressure and temperature. Also, it takes time to cool something, particularly in the wake of a heat source. I don't imagine you think it's cold in the vacuum of space near the sun do you, for the matter that is there?

Don't make arbitrary assumptions based on only a few facts; you're bound to be wrong, though that hasn't stopped even brilliant scientist, (by histories measure), from doing the same thing now and then.

Actually, one major benefit of AMD processors is that they are durable and tend to function well in adverse conditions and seem to be lest susceptible to voltage spikes and unclean power. That's a pretty good benefit, and if I wanted a computer that functioned post apocalypse, I'd probably want an AMD.

I don't sell Intel chips. I'm also not going to try and convince you to buy one, though I might recommend you upgrade to a better AMD processor based on your system specs and you preference. There really isn't any reason an AMD can't do what an Intel does provided good hardware compatibility, good hardware, and a decent set-up.

It may not have quite the performance per clock and it might be more visibly inferior at higher clock speeds, and it might show less gain from an overclock, but it is still perfectly functional provided you have a good one that is relatively recent when using more recent technologies.



Just for reference, an OC quite often grants you very little performance increase, and most benefit gained through OC is due to opening up pathways for data transfer and the like, which allow components to feed data back and forth more effectively. More often, people pump 2-3 times the power into their system for marginal gains of 10-15% processing capability which doesn't necessarly translate to better gameplay or faster program loading and executing.

Quite often, (more often than more often), they just end up with an unstable PC that garbles all the code in it and makes a mess of everything, and they eventually have to either restore their PC to an earlier time or reinstall their operating system. Net result being that OC doesn't count for much for the average user.

However, if you compare similar clocked AMD and Intel processors of the same, (approx.), generation, the Intel does process better and handle memory and any other things more effectively in recent years. On the other hand, most people wouldn't notice the difference in everday use or even while gaming. Fact is, most gaming is GPU dependent these days, (with a few exceptions), so that often matters much more than the effectiveness per clock of your processor.

tl;dr: buy whatever you like; just make sure it is good.
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Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-05-23 14:37:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
I do hope ccp isn't tryin to sell out to nvidia and focus their developing towards 'The Popular Corporation'
I use ATI/AMD, and have for many years, they OC better and are more stable than nvidia/intel. I know this from many years of experience. Just because nvidia, intel, and microsoft are trying to monopolize the market, doesn't mean they are better, in fact, in their case, it's very much the contrary. Any1 can sell crap if they advert it everywhere and make it cheap enuf for a noob to buy.


I use my PC as a HTPC as well as gaming and the only card with an HDMI output that supported putting out full HDMI 7.1 sound was an AMD card, haven't had the chance to log on yet and see how it works now but just saying nVidia isn't all that.
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#83 - 2012-05-23 14:42:01 UTC
Vhan wrote:
Ituhata Saken wrote:
I noticed some people complaining about a drop from 150fps down to 60. I find it amazing people can even notice these things (unless they are watching an fps monitor), it wasn't long ago we were watching movies at 24fps. I'm pretty sure either the eye or the brain can't really comprehend it.

EDIT: come to think of it, aren't most monitors running on 60Hz anyway, so anything over is a waste?


Higher frame rates help with camera panning. Also, while the frame rate may be constant, your eyes don't sample the same frequency the computer runs at.

You can notice issues (jitters, flashes, and missing frames) at lower frame rates that are higher than 24fps. This is a common issue with first person shooters in multiplayer. I find issues with playing first person shooters that are lower than 80fps, although much of that is related to network issues and rendering.

In Eve, it's not a twitch issue, since locking and firing at ships is a simplified simulation compared to first person shooters. It should be perfectly playable at 60fps, however lower than that I have problems with camera panning/rotation that drops the frame rate.


I used to play with ~150, but hard capped mine at 60 and I frankly don't notice any difference whatsoever. In fact nowadays I run all my games at a stable 60 and am quite pleased with it. In fact, I'm too lazy to check right now but pretty sure I never record/fraps stuff above 30 even? But as other people pointed out, there's more to it than just fps.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
#84 - 2012-05-23 14:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanth
Zyress wrote:
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
I do hope ccp isn't tryin to sell out to nvidia and focus their developing towards 'The Popular Corporation'
I use ATI/AMD, and have for many years, they OC better and are more stable than nvidia/intel. I know this from many years of experience. Just because nvidia, intel, and microsoft are trying to monopolize the market, doesn't mean they are better, in fact, in their case, it's very much the contrary. Any1 can sell crap if they advert it everywhere and make it cheap enuf for a noob to buy.


I use my PC as a HTPC as well as gaming and the only card with an HDMI output that supported putting out full HDMI 7.1 sound was an AMD card, haven't had the chance to log on yet and see how it works now but just saying nVidia isn't all that.


Really age-old argument.. but to put things in a perspective;

I ran a 750 euro ATI-card for a while. It was perfect in every game/application I ran. But then one day when EVE had patched, suddenly my heat went up so quick I managed to kill the card from heat damage. In a single EVE patch. I used to play high-end FPS games on it at max settings with zero issue, and boom, two clients of EVE = dead card. I bought a temporary 60 Euro nVidia card to replace it, since I was gonna get a new PC later anyway and didn't want to fork out too much money.. well. Turns out for EVE, that 60 Euro card performed just as well for EVE, and it did not melt.

I can't simply find it sensible to risk expensive ATI-cards when I know EVE have had memory glitches at numours occations, and at least once killed my expensive card.

Today I run nVidia, not because they are better in any way, I simply just don't trust CCP. And I know for a fact that EVE is a) the only application, ever, that has burned a card for me. And b) I used that card for numerous things, with no shows of heat going up, or bad performance. But the exact same time an EVE patch is released, the heat immediately goes up and card melts. Coincidence? I think not.

TL;DR can you afford risking ATI cards? I feel the risk is not worth it.

AFK-cloaking in a system near you.

CCP Zorba
C C P
C C P Alliance
#85 - 2012-05-23 16:50:24 UTC
Franz7657 wrote:
lol, i like the answer i get from BH team to my bug report

"Hello ,
Thank you for your bugreport titled: Missiles: impressive fps droping

The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug.

It´s not a majority of users, it´s a small minority that are affected by FPS drops due to the GPU particle effect. Driver updates from your manufacturer may fix this in the future, but there is nothing that we can immediately do to improve client performance as it has been through optimisation and performance testing.

The BugHunter Team "

^^ i'm not really sure the fps drop is an intended feature


Well I don't know what the report looked like but FPS drops are clearly not a feature, and we are most definitely not done optimizing this feature. In fact CCP Choloepus (the man who built the feature) sits right next to me and just burned his hand swapping out his graphics card for an ATI card because he's working on this stuff right now.

CCP Zorba | EVE Online Technical Director | @techartistsorg

Damien Valdes
Doomheim
#86 - 2012-05-23 16:55:13 UTC
CCP Zorba wrote:
Well I don't know what the report looked like but FPS drops are clearly not a feature, and we are most definitely not done optimizing this feature. In fact CCP Choloepus (the man who built the feature) sits right next to me and just burned his hand swapping out his graphics card for an ATI card because he's working on this stuff right now.


I doubt I need to tell you this, but don't let these guys get to you. People rarely post good things - they're too busy playing.

If someone can't figure out that you guys aren't going to alienate half the hardware that people use, screw 'em.

Keep up the good work.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#87 - 2012-05-23 17:01:13 UTC
CCP Zorba wrote:

Well I don't know what the report looked like but FPS drops are clearly not a feature, and we are most definitely not done optimizing this feature. In fact CCP Choloepus (the man who built the feature) sits right next to me and just burned his hand swapping out his graphics card for an ATI card because he's working on this stuff right now.


Lol

My GTX560Ti will run at around 80 C if I don't force the fan to run at 70% or more. Now, I don't feel like doing the math to convert it so something my simple American mind can understand, but I do believe that is too hot to touch. P I hear alot of people say that's really bad for the card, I can't understand why the auto-fan insists on letting it get that high. Do the manufacturers not feel the same way, or is it a super sekrat conspiracy to burn out their cards, insuring future sales for new cards? Inquiring minds want to know.

So close...

Shreya Esil
Nyan Cat Logistics
#88 - 2012-05-23 17:31:42 UTC
I'm running crossfire Radeon HD 5750s.

Generally speaking EvE is smooth, however I will lose 80% of my frames with any sort of volumetric fog/smoke effects.
Most notably, ladar sites, base in clouds etc.

This patch has only compounded the issue.

Lighting effects through the fog creates additional performance issues, for instance, your ship fighting in the fog and your camera pointed at the sun/star.

Franz7657
DreddNaut
#89 - 2012-05-23 17:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Franz7657
CCP Zorba wrote:
Franz7657 wrote:
lol, i like the answer i get from BH team to my bug report

"Hello ,
Thank you for your bugreport titled: Missiles: impressive fps droping

The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug.

It´s not a majority of users, it´s a small minority that are affected by FPS drops due to the GPU particle effect. Driver updates from your manufacturer may fix this in the future, but there is nothing that we can immediately do to improve client performance as it has been through optimisation and performance testing.

The BugHunter Team "

^^ i'm not really sure the fps drop is an intended feature


Well I don't know what the report looked like but FPS drops are clearly not a feature, and we are most definitely not done optimizing this feature. In fact CCP Choloepus (the man who built the feature) sits right next to me and just burned his hand swapping out his graphics card for an ATI card because he's working on this stuff right now.


the bug report is id 136183 then you can look at it, i replyed a bit harder after the 1st answer he give me, i agree, but desactivating a function is not a solution for me

the good news is that you actually looking at this problem, and i hope you found the solution
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#90 - 2012-05-23 17:48:39 UTC
Well this is odd.


I am running a single core WinXP system I built in 2006 with 2005 parts, with a newer video card that might have been "up to date" in late 2007, but I am running a steady FPS in the high 50s even with missiles firing.

Evidently the problem might be in video drivers or settings - most of my settings for the game client are pretty low.

I would recommend that anybody seeing a performance hit from missile trails try reducing the graphics settings on the other aspects first and then see if the performance hit still occurs. It might be possible that, barring old driver issues, the video cards are simply being overworked.

I have an 8-core x64 laptop with Win7 and a EvE client on high settings that I will try later this week.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Timural
#91 - 2012-05-23 18:17:23 UTC
I have a Sapphire Radeon OC 7970 and I wanted to see what the missile trails looked like so I went into a belt with my cerberus, fired 5 beautiful missiles then noticed that my fps went from 60 to 40 where it hovered for as long as I was firing.

So confirming the missiles are the issue.
Dieter Rams
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2012-05-23 18:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dieter Rams
Shreya Esil wrote:
I'm running crossfire Radeon HD 5750s.

Generally speaking EvE is smooth, however I will lose 80% of my frames with any sort of volumetric fog/smoke effects.
Most notably, ladar sites, base in clouds etc.

This patch has only compounded the issue.

Lighting effects through the fog creates additional performance issues, for instance, your ship fighting in the fog and your camera pointed at the sun/star.



I'll second this, ATI Mobility Radeon 4850.

Setup: 27" iMac 2009 running EVE in Windows 7 64-bit, Driver Packaging Version 8.961-120405a-137225C-ATI
Sir John Halsey
#93 - 2012-05-23 19:08:18 UTC
CCP Zorba wrote:
To those experiencing performance issues: There are known issues with some cards, especially ATI cards. So telling us your card will help us know what people are suffering.
...



Microprocessor 2.00 GHz AMD Turion X2 RM-70 Dual-Core Mobile Processor
Microprocessor Cache 1 MB L2 Cache
Memory 4096 MB
Video Graphics ATI Radeon HD 3200


Even in tactical view, with particles off when i'm in a room with 10 frigates firing at me (and my Caracal shooting them) the game is barely playable.


Before inferno i had 0 problems.
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#94 - 2012-05-23 19:52:40 UTC
AkaiDruiD II wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
..................


;) lol and ur trolling here too? ;P

- Please link the vid of Astronauts roasting marshmellows on the Moon ;)

- That 'smoke' would be FROZEN matter

- Thank GOD there are AMD processors in industrial equipment \o/

- Ur not going to try and sell me a intel chip, r u? ;p


...I don't think frozen, matter, and smoke mean what you think they do

.

Godsdood
Duiwelse Navorsing Korporasie
#95 - 2012-05-23 20:07:17 UTC
On a Radeon HD5700 my FPS drops from 60 (in space) to 10FPS the moment i enter a mission, from the slideshow that is the mission then, the effects looks really cool.

Time for a new GPU, I know
Malphilos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-05-23 20:09:37 UTC
Misanth wrote:

I used to play with ~150, but hard capped mine at 60 and I frankly don't notice any difference whatsoever.


Nobody really does. Critical flicker fusion, I think humans top out around 60Hz.
NAM TRON
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-05-23 20:48:06 UTC
Malphilos wrote:
Misanth wrote:

I used to play with ~150, but hard capped mine at 60 and I frankly don't notice any difference whatsoever.


Nobody really does. Critical flicker fusion, I think humans top out around 60Hz.


That's not correct at all, read the article on Flicker Fusion Threshold. Also, most LCD monitors max out at 60 Hz anyway therefore having the game render more than 60 FPS won't visually matter at all. So, if you're saying you can't see a difference with more than 60 FPS then perhaps it's because your monitor is only updating at 60 Hz to begin with. I know from personal experience that with an old Viewsonic 1024x768 CRT if it wasn't running at least 85 Hz then I would notice an annoying flicker because the phosphor had rather low persistence below 14 milliseconds causing it to flicker. While LCDs subpixels don't require updates at a minimal rate therefore they do not flicker.
Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#98 - 2012-05-23 20:49:09 UTC
Lfod Shi wrote:
Win 7
Alienware M17xR3
Intel Core i7 2.00GHz
8 GB RAM DDR3 @ 664MHz
AMD Radeon HD 6870M

Hope that helps!


That's hilarious, my system is half of this and runs flawlessly!
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#99 - 2012-05-23 21:22:03 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:
Sellendis wrote:
If you turn missile effects off, you dont even see who is shooting at you, or if you are being shot at in the first place.
If you turn GPU particles off, there are no missile trails, just hit effect, and unless you are zoomed in to the ship you are not likely to notice them.

So as always visibility suffers and we get a big performance hit. Even with full effects if you zoom out your ship, you cant see the missiles flying at anything at all.
So we trade bad visibility, big performance hits and crappy missile hit sound (more like a fart really) for a upgrade that most of us will turn off...sadly.


On this point, we'll be adding a cheap booster/flare effect to missiles to increase visibility when missile trails are disabled.

In terms of performance, the GPU particles themselves incur a fairly constant GPU overhead while any of them are alive, irrespective of number of missiles in flight etc. CPU-side, that does seem like a larger hit than we've seen internally, so we'll look into that.

Thanks for the feedback, all.


Can we just get a new version of the "Premium Lite" client again? I miss a lot about the "classic" graphics, at any rate.
Yes, I get the frame-rate hit too, and I don't have much to spare as it is.

Rig (Yes, I know, I know--upgrades hopefully soon, not Soon(TM)):

HP MediaCentre m8125x
2 GB RAM (DDR2)
Intel CoreQuad2 Q6600 quad-core at 2.4GHz
NVIDIA GeForce 7350LE (<---first thing to go once $$$ is available, I'm well aware that it's the weak link here)
Windows Vista SP2 32bit.

Most settings medium, with shaders and shadow quality low or off, A/A off, all effects on.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Kalpel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-05-23 22:11:02 UTC
CCP Choloepus wrote:
Great, thanks! GPU particles really shouldn't be eating ~50ms of frame time, we'll check this out.


Please do so, as it's eating my FPS too .....Sad

You failed to target nothing! ≡v≡ online ... (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻