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High sec plexes need entry keys

Author
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#121 - 2012-05-22 11:43:44 UTC
Asinar wrote:
I got bored of missions and bought an Interceptor to do hisec DEDs, you know, the ones that appear on map. All were camped, I looked for empty sites for 3 days...finally I got to do one. Of course it was in lowsec.

I just get the feeling that the universe is designed for 5000 players. Too few sites etc. If 10 players decide to do same thing as you, forget it.

If the sites (or rather the loot that drops from them) weren't scarce, they wouldn't be worth fighting over Smile
Asinar
The Hotdog
#122 - 2012-05-22 12:03:35 UTC
St Mio wrote:
Asinar wrote:
I got bored of missions and bought an Interceptor to do hisec DEDs, you know, the ones that appear on map. All were camped, I looked for empty sites for 3 days...finally I got to do one. Of course it was in lowsec.

I just get the feeling that the universe is designed for 5000 players. Too few sites etc. If 10 players decide to do same thing as you, forget it.

If the sites (or rather the loot that drops from them) weren't scarce, they wouldn't be worth fighting over Smile


Plenty of other avenues if all you want is cash, I (try to) do them for a change of pace.
Thee Joker
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-05-22 12:16:46 UTC
Asinar wrote:
I got bored of missions and bought an Interceptor to do hisec DEDs, you know, the ones that appear on map. All were camped, I looked for empty sites for 3 days...finally I got to do one. Of course it was in lowsec.

I just get the feeling that the universe is designed for 5000 players. Too few sites etc. If 10 players decide to do same thing as you, forget it.


Only proves how few of the sites you have run.

The 1/10 sites are more often empty than not.

Seems like you tried the same site 5 times and it was occupied and called it "all plexes in all the space are all camped 23.5/7"

Even so, they only get the "loot at the end" if you let them have at it.
You can compete for it just as much as them.

Sometimes all it takes is a faster internet connection.




Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#124 - 2012-05-22 12:35:57 UTC
Eve is a MMO right? Why don't you guys bring a friend?

seriously, 4/10 can be done < 5min without a T3 but just a friend or 2.....

T1 fit

or maybe PI is the answer for ppl who loves solo PVE?
Asinar
The Hotdog
#125 - 2012-05-22 14:32:05 UTC
Thee Joker wrote:
Asinar wrote:
I got bored of missions and bought an Interceptor to do hisec DEDs, you know, the ones that appear on map. All were camped, I looked for empty sites for 3 days...finally I got to do one. Of course it was in lowsec.

I just get the feeling that the universe is designed for 5000 players. Too few sites etc. If 10 players decide to do same thing as you, forget it.


Only proves how few of the sites you have run.

The 1/10 sites are more often empty than not.

Seems like you tried the same site 5 times and it was occupied and called it "all plexes in all the space are all camped 23.5/7"

Even so, they only get the "loot at the end" if you let them have at it.
You can compete for it just as much as them.

Sometimes all it takes is a faster internet connection.






Sure, rogue drones 1/10 and 3/10...done em a thousand times.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#126 - 2012-05-22 15:12:52 UTC
St Mio wrote:
Plentath wrote:
Liliana Rahl wrote:
On that note though, T3 should be locked out of high sec plexes. Not for the reasons the OP has given but simply because its just silly that such a powerful ship is used to do those sites.

I welcome all tengu pilots to delightfully refute this point.


Name another ship with a scan bonus that can run 3 or 4/10s ?

The strat cruisers are pretty much specifically designed to do exactly this; locking them out would be like saying a Stiletto can't fit a warp disruptor as it's too good of a tackler.

I don't actually fly a Tengu, but I should be allowed to if I want to. There's nothing about a Tengu that shouldn't allow it into highsec scan sites except YOU don't think it's worthwhile.

Yesterday I saw a 2005 toon in a Legion running highsec ANOMALIES.

Now I think this is sad as all hell, but he should be allowed to do it if he wants to.

Clearly the solution is to ban T3s from highsec exploration sites, and introduce a Sisters of EVE faction frigate that can field 5x light drones and has scanning related bonuses.




In before Nova Fox.



I remember now - last time I saw a T3 in a 4/10 with full aggro I was just a hair away from bumping it with my BC running a 100mn doing 1048k/sec. It's crucial for it to warp off the moment it pops the boss and gets the loot because every rat and its brother is gunning for it. Should not take much to bump it though - I'll try it with a Comet and MWD next time.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2012-05-22 19:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Back before this game became infected with griefer/ganker madness, there used to be an 'unwritten' code of conduct that explorers would demonstrate in high security. It was an honorable sportsmanship type attitude, otherwise known as common courtesy towards each other.

When an explorer entered a smaller site and saw another player was already there, he would usually watch for a bit and then leave. Maybe even ask you in chat if any help was required. If no help was needed, would wish you luck and move on.

The larger sites were a lot of fun to do with a few buddies in a small fleet. Quite a few times would run into other small fleets at those sites and the same thing would happen. Watch for a couple of minutes and if it looked like it, ask if assistance was needed and if not, do a good luck wave in local and head off to another site.

There was hardly any documentation available about the sites and you didn't know what to expect or which rat triggered the fat loot. When I first started doing exploration, that's how it was.

Hell, I can remember when meeting another player in the static 1/10 and 2/10 complexes, usually would convo each other, fleet up and share the complex by taking turns getting the Overseer.

Then the whole cut throat 'screw you' mentality started happening. Players began hoarding and stealing keys which resulted in a 'Rat Race' to the end and camping it 23/7.

When CCP changed the scanning mechanic and made it much easier for players to train and do probing, that mentality infected exploration. Especially with the introduction of the Evelopedia where the information is documented and easily available to access.

Anyway, so much for the walk down memory lane. I must say the amount of hypocrisy in this thread from some of the so called veterans is so thick a blind man can see it. Unfortunately the same type of mentality that has infected the game is also prominently displayed here in the forums.

First of all, most of the high security sites have some form of 'Lock Out' mechanism in place, usually in the form of a key. That means 'Instanced' areas for PvE. It doesn't necessarily mean solo though since multiple players can access the gate with a single key for a short time period.

Secondly, the sites were never designed to be tanked as a 'race' to the end. It's actually supposed to be unknown, not documented and planned out. You're not supposed to know which rat is the trigger for the fat loot. Also some of the sites are indeed 'starter' sites set up for new players with low skills. Mainly the static DED 1/10 sites. It's plainly listed in the on screen pop up message when warping to the site - DED Threat Assessment: Training (1 of 10). Also the 'Hideout' sites are basically starter exploration sites. The expedition locations gained from those sites are all high security systems.

Thirdly, I agree with what some of the other posters are saying about the T3 Cruisers. They are way overpowered for the DED 3/10's and 'Lookout' sites. Even though I use a T3, I think they should be locked out from those sites.

To the OP, check out the CCP YouTube probing video and practice scanning, train up your skills at least to level 4 and take your time studying the star map. Look for areas with low population count and check the system stats, such as active pilots in system, active pilots docked, amount of NPC kills, etc. For the larger high security sites, get a couple of fleet mates to join you in running them. Even the small sites are fun to run with a friend, especially the expeditions.

For ship, I first started out with a Covert Ops Frigate and would ask players in NPC corp chat to come kill the rats at Radar and Mag sites. While I was scanning for other signatures, I would give those players bookmarks to various anomalies and also have them do a quick check of the asteroid belts for rats. That way they weren't just sitting around waiting, basically keeping them busy till needed. After finding a few combat sites, I would change ships and off we'd go.

After a while though I decided that I needed a better ship to both scan and complete the small sites without asking for help. Yeah, I just got tired of waiting for backup to arrive so I used a Force Recon Cruiser. With just one T2 scan rig, scanning implant, Sisters Equipment and exploration skills trained to level 4, I had no problems getting signatures locked at 100% very quickly. The Force Recon Cruiser has enough slots to fit up exploration equipment as well as defensive and offensive modules. Plus it can use a Covert Ops Cloak for completing expeditions that end in low security. Basically I ran all Radar, Magnetometric, Landmark Beacons showing in overview, Hideaway and Burrow Anomalies (seem to spawn a lot of Commander NPC's), the mid level combat sites - DED 3/10, Lookout and Watch Cosmic Signature sites as well as the expeditions gained from those sites. I usually would refit ship for total combat on the Watch sites and expeditions.

Anyway, good luck to you and don't give up.


DMC
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2012-05-23 08:26:52 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
(...)
Secondly, the sites were never designed to be tanked as a 'race' to the end. It's actually supposed to be unknown, not documented and planned out. You're not supposed to know which rat is the trigger for the fat loot. Also some of the sites are indeed 'starter' sites set up for new players with low skills. Mainly the static DED 1/10 sites. It's plainly listed in the on screen pop up message when warping to the site - DED Threat Assessment: Training (1 of 10). Also the 'Hideout' sites are basically starter exploration sites. The expedition locations gained from those sites are all high security systems.
(...)

Hideouts work as starter sites, because you have to scan down the site (most veterans don't fly around scanning in a frig that can run them), and then run them (reshipping to a combat frig isn't worth their time.)

However, for DED 1/10s: while it's theoretically easy for a few day old newbie to warp to site and run it, it's even easier for an older player to just leave their deadspace pirate frig inside the plex whole day and kill the overseer/structure as soon as it respawns. As long as static sites are static and as easy as warping to a beacon on the overview, they're always just going to be free commander NPC spawns for older players. They're really not teaching new players anything at all about exploration.

IMHO they (static DEDs) should be moved to the scanning system and their signal strength increased high enough that a week old player with an unbonused ship can scan them down fairly easily. \☻/
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-05-23 08:45:11 UTC
When I started exploring a few months ago I would d-scan a site before going in, if there was someone and a few wrecks I would just leave. Seems I was being naive because I was once in a GGG cleared all 4 rooms, and then a tengu waltzed in and took the overseer in the 5th room. For a few minutes I was a bit miffed to say the least, then I said oh well that's how it is. Since then I've beaten like 90% of the other tengu pilots that I find in a site. If they want competition, I'll give them competition =)
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Mnemosyne Gloob
#130 - 2012-05-23 09:21:59 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
There was hardly any documentation available about the sites and you didn't know what to expect or which rat triggered the fat loot. When I first started doing exploration, that's how it was.
[...]
Especially with the introduction of the Evelopedia where the information is documented and easily available to access.


So don't share the information then and also don't go looking for a 'walkthrough' when you find a site that you haven't done yet. However there's no way to prevent people from documenting sites.

Also It's not like you will be doing every site only once (unless you are some sort of roleplaying explorer), so you will remember triggers and whatnot for the next time you find a particular site and at some point you won't think about it anymore.
Endeavour Starfleet
#131 - 2012-05-23 09:27:06 UTC
Mocktar Olachenko wrote:
The loot (and by extension, the plex) isn't "yours" till the loot is in your cargo bay. Working as intended; HTFU.



This..
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2012-05-23 10:57:50 UTC
St Mio wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
(...)
Secondly, the sites were never designed to be tanked as a 'race' to the end. It's actually supposed to be unknown, not documented and planned out. You're not supposed to know which rat is the trigger for the fat loot. Also some of the sites are indeed 'starter' sites set up for new players with low skills. Mainly the static DED 1/10 sites. It's plainly listed in the on screen pop up message when warping to the site - DED Threat Assessment: Training (1 of 10). Also the 'Hideout' sites are basically starter exploration sites. The expedition locations gained from those sites are all high security systems.
(...)

Hideouts work as starter sites, because you have to scan down the site (most veterans don't fly around scanning in a frig that can run them), and then run them (reshipping to a combat frig isn't worth their time.)

However, for DED 1/10s: while it's theoretically easy for a few day old newbie to warp to site and run it, it's even easier for an older player to just leave their deadspace pirate frig inside the plex whole day and kill the overseer/structure as soon as it respawns. As long as static sites are static and as easy as warping to a beacon on the overview, they're always just going to be free commander NPC spawns for older players. They're really not teaching new players anything at all about exploration.

IMHO they (static DEDs) should be moved to the scanning system and their signal strength increased high enough that a week old player with an unbonused ship can scan them down fairly easily. \☻/

Yeah, the static DED 1/10 and 2/10 sites could be added to the exploration aspect now, especially since CCP has reduced the skill requirements for probing.

Another option could be to implement an automatic 'kick out' timer after the player has triggered the site completion, basically after the Overseer has been destroyed. Probably have the 'Kick out' timer be about 30 minutes to allow looting and salvaging.

When I used to run the static plexes back quite a while ago, I would farm them with just a little bit of camping mixed in. Mainly I would kill, loot and salvage all NPC's in each room. By the time I got to the last room, my Rifter's cargohold was already over 1/2 filled. I could only sit in the last room for a couple of respawns.

When someone else came into the last room while I was topping off my cargohold, I'd convo them, see if they wanted to fleet up, take turns and share the last room or just play on through, like in Golf.

If they said no and wanted to be an A-hole, I'd try to quickly jump on the overseer. Sometimes I'd get it, other times they would get it. It really didn't matter much anyway since my cargohold was just about maxed out so I'd just leave, unload and go to another plex.


Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
There was hardly any documentation available about the sites and you didn't know what to expect or which rat triggered the fat loot. When I first started doing exploration, that's how it was.
[...]
Especially with the introduction of the Evelopedia where the information is documented and easily available to access.


So don't share the information then and also don't go looking for a 'walkthrough' when you find a site that you haven't done yet. However there's no way to prevent people from documenting sites.

Also It's not like you will be doing every site only once (unless you are some sort of roleplaying explorer), so you will remember triggers and whatnot for the next time you find a particular site and at some point you won't think about it anymore.

That wasn't the point of my posted reply. The point is there used to be honor, a code of conduct between explorers showing each other common courtesy. And it wasn't a strickly solo venture either. Exploration teams back then were looking to kill all the NPC's in the site, not quickly rush through it bypassing the other rats in order to get to the Overseer asap.

Due to the lowered skill requirements for probing and documentation being easily available, an overabundence of players are doing exploration resulting in a lack of available sites. That has basically helped promote and move the cut throat 'screw you' race to the end mentality usually found in the static plexes into mainstream exploration.

I have no problem with documentation being available for reference. Hell, I've created and edited a lot of the documentation in the evelopedia, I know the shortcuts and how to quickly trigger the Overseer. I also have a pimped out T3 cruiser and can rush right through but guess what, I still approach each site as if it's brand new and totally unknown.

Why, probably due to being an old school explorer but mainly because I enjoy doing all aspects of exploration, scanning the sites down, killing all the NPC's and structures, collecting all loot drops, getting the Overseer and expedition at the end.

In other words, I'm taking my time and enjoying everything, viewing all of the handiwork done by CCP Devs, savoring each and every experience. I'm not looking to rush through the sites like a fail Ebenezer Scrooge counting pennys nor am I looking to screw someone else out of a site if they happen to be there before me, even if I can complete it much quicker.

There's a lot more to this game than just gaining ISK asap at the expense of others.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2012-05-23 11:04:09 UTC
Summary: kids these days have no manners! :O
Plentath
Sparkle Motion.
#134 - 2012-05-23 11:22:14 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mixture of rose-tinted glasses, whine and elitism


I don't think you get EvE at all.

They're a thing that anyone can find at anytime and get the reward. Of COURSE there is competition over them, to suggest there shouldn't be is completely silly.

Also, exactly WHEN did you play EvE when it was all proper gentlemen tipping their hats at other passers by? That's not how I remember EvE at any point.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#135 - 2012-05-23 11:24:17 UTC
Plentath wrote:
Also, exactly WHEN did you play EvE when it was all proper gentlemen tipping their hats at other passers by? That's not how I remember EvE at any point.

I did that once, but Mnemosyne Gloob stole my Radar cans :'(
Mnemosyne Gloob
#136 - 2012-05-23 12:18:29 UTC
St Mio wrote:
Plentath wrote:
Also, exactly WHEN did you play EvE when it was all proper gentlemen tipping their hats at other passers by? That's not how I remember EvE at any point.

I did that once, but Mnemosyne Gloob stole my Radar cans :'(


from under your captain quarters couch no less :D
Dendrin Koljn
NecTech
#137 - 2012-05-23 14:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dendrin Koljn
deleted
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2012-05-23 16:07:29 UTC
Plentath wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Mixture of rose-tinted glasses, whine and elitism


I don't think you get EvE at all.

They're a thing that anyone can find at anytime and get the reward. Of COURSE there is competition over them, to suggest there shouldn't be is completely silly.

Also, exactly WHEN did you play EvE when it was all proper gentlemen tipping their hats at other passers by? That's not how I remember EvE at any point.


Obviously you didn't understand what I wrote or you have no clue due to being a fairly new player. And I never suggested there should be no competition. Also if you're gonna quote something, do it correctly instead of changing it into a sarcastic failed attempt at trolling which will only get your replies reported, edited and or removed.

Exploration was first introduced with Revelations I - Winter Expansion, end of 2006 start of 2007. It was very complicated and time consuming requiring a lot of patience and a much higher skill level than what is currently needed. Not very many players were doing it.

I started playing this game at the start of Empyrean Age - Summer Expansion, 2008. I trained up specifically for exploration.

Exploration was then revamped and changed with Apocrypha I - first half of Summer Expansion, 2009. It was made a lot easier and faster, requiring a much lower skill level than before. More exploration sites were added including w-systems and an Exploration Career Agent. A lot more players are now doing it.

Here's a bit of advice for you:
Try contributing some worthwhile information to the conversation instead of acting like you know everything when you're actually still wet behind the ears.
Kiteo Hatto
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-05-23 16:29:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiteo Hatto
Just did 2 Sansha Vigils today after DT and the second one was done by someone who blitzed it. I warped into a full aggro since the guy ignored the first room.

Ofcourse i had NO idea that anyone has already done it so i proceeded to shoot things with my legion, 4 perma tracking disruptors brought my 40k scorch range to 6k. Eventually(20 minutes or so) i cleared the room and moved through the gate just to find yellow wreck of the overseer. I was MAD.

CCP should just make it so you HAVE to clear the first room to move on, make the damn keys consumable on activation and somehow make sure that the site despawns as soon as the overseer is killed.

Now i know, but my time was wasted because there were no indication that someone skipped to room 2Roll
Gogela
Krigmakt Elite
Safety.
#140 - 2012-05-23 17:08:13 UTC
Actually I think the idea of a nexus chip dropping from certain rats to get into some DED plexes sounds like a good idea to me. F U empire. :p

Signatures should be used responsibly...