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Looks like we're winning the war: Highsec mining drops by HALF!
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#221 - 2012-05-17 07:33:05 UTC
Ares Renton wrote:
This is the consequence of gladhanding away massive amounts of isk to one playerbase and not another. The goons control the economy and they can use that money to control it even more.

And is CCP going to fix it? No, they're just going to make nullsec even wealthier in the future.

Posting to confirm goons are the only alliance in null sec and that CCP literally just throw ISK at them. I personally saw Hilmar slipping at least three fitty dollar notes into mittens' thong last night.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-05-17 09:35:32 UTC
We currently are being boosted by a patch that CCP released which improves refining skills. So any given item will give out 20 times the output. Since we are one of the biggest ratters in the game within the CFC Alliance, it make sense to give us this bonus as we do not mine. It is only exclusive to members of the CFC & Pandemic Legion.
Khadann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#223 - 2012-05-17 09:53:33 UTC
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
We currently are being boosted by a patch that CCP released which improves refining skills. So any given item will give out 20 times the output. Since we are one of the biggest ratters in the game within the CFC Alliance, it make sense to give us this bonus as we do not mine. It is only exclusive to members of the CFC & Pandemic Legion.



WTF?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#224 - 2012-05-17 10:16:56 UTC
Khadann wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
We currently are being boosted by a patch that CCP released which improves refining skills. So any given item will give out 20 times the output. Since we are one of the biggest ratters in the game within the CFC Alliance, it make sense to give us this bonus as we do not mine. It is only exclusive to members of the CFC & Pandemic Legion.

WTF?

This is actually true, any goonswarm owned null sec station refines at many times the output of a standard station model.

Some in the past have called this unfair, personally I am of the opinion that since they as an alliance have little in the way of mining operations it is a necessary evil. And good on CCP for being kind enough to introduce such a mechanic to support their goon overlords valued customers.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Karadion Kohlar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#225 - 2012-05-17 10:58:55 UTC
Khadann wrote:
Karadion Kohlar wrote:
We currently are being boosted by a patch that CCP released which improves refining skills. So any given item will give out 20 times the output. Since we are one of the biggest ratters in the game within the CFC Alliance, it make sense to give us this bonus as we do not mine. It is only exclusive to members of the CFC & Pandemic Legion.



WTF?

Problem?
Phugoid
Absolute Order XL
Absolute Honor
#226 - 2012-05-17 12:28:50 UTC
I think the OP, James 315 is trying his best to become the next The Mittani. Someone needs alot of attention.

I have mined some during Hulkageddon, tho of course with a Covetor and not as frequent as before. But all will go back to normal after Hulkageddon. And I do, do other things in Eve while Hulkageddon is going on.......

I find it very interesting that with all that there is to do in Eve, the OP can only find satisfaction in ganking miners.
Meh, we will continue to play the game as we want, regardless of any lame "Manisfesto" by someone needing attention!

Flugzeugführer
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#227 - 2012-05-17 13:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Severide
Plentath wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Doc Severide wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
I hope every single high-sec miner rage-quits in tears. Until they do, I'll be upping my ransom prices on T1 hulls, which are finally worth something.

Pathetic... Let's drive away subscribers in droves until there is no one left to pay the bills...

Dramaqueen. That's how the game was in the beginning anyway and it was pretty awesome.


Yay, sure the 350 people CCP has hired since then will think exaclty the same about CCP losing the income that justifies their paychecks...
But, according to your kind, CCP ought to make the game more like the themepark MMOs that are losing subscribers?

Okay.

Not my kind, I'm not asking for that. It just doesn't make sense to me to wish that "every single high-sec miner rage-quits in tears." Ans no I don't mine, I hate it...
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#228 - 2012-05-17 13:59:30 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ares Renton wrote:
This is the consequence of gladhanding away massive amounts of isk to one playerbase and not another. The goons control the economy and they can use that money to control it even more.

And is CCP going to fix it? No, they're just going to make nullsec even wealthier in the future.

Posting to confirm goons are the only alliance in null sec and that CCP literally just throw ISK at them. I personally saw Hilmar slipping at least three fitty dollar notes into mittens' thong last night.

OUTRAGEOUS !!!

It was my thong...
Immogen Telvani
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#229 - 2012-05-17 14:04:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Immogen Telvani
James 315 wrote:

In light of these facts, we must now realize that the extinction of highsec mining is not just an impossible dream anymore. It's something that we, as the EVE community, can realistically accomplish together. If you have not yet committed to the fight against the carebears, then I encourage you to join us now. This is your chance. Kill some highsec miners before they're all gone!

- 315



Just pointing out that you've missed 2 groups off your list ..


#1] Hi-Sec mission runners.
#2] Nul-sec Corps/Alliances that NAP every/any-thing/one around them.


I eagerly await the results of your forthcoming war on NulSec & Mission Hubs.
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2012-05-18 22:13:54 UTC
James 315 can not even stop mining in one belt much less one solar system or entire eve.
As for hulkageddon it did not even kill 2% of the miner fleet.
Yet the industrialists got roped in big time and way over built hulks believing in goomswarms mission.
They saw profits in hulks. Turns out the bottom fell out of the market as the attack was not effective in doing anything other than
upsetting morale of the carebears.

Mineral prices are back down that has several orders of magnitude more effect on miners than hulkageddon does.

James 315 is trivial. Goonswarm is slightly less trivial but still ineffective in their mission. Eve lives on.
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#231 - 2012-05-18 22:21:25 UTC
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
James 315 can not even stop mining in one belt much less one solar system or entire eve.
As for hulkageddon it did not even kill 2% of the miner fleet.
...is what you'd be able to get away with saying, were it not for the fact that CCP Diagoras released official statistics showing the amount of highsec mining dropped almost by half.

Sorry, but this is what happens when we have access to facts. Blink

MinerBumping.com
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#232 - 2012-05-18 22:31:29 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
James 315 can not even stop mining in one belt much less one solar system or entire eve.
As for hulkageddon it did not even kill 2% of the miner fleet.
...is what you'd be able to get away with saying, were it not for the fact that CCP Diagoras released official statistics showing the amount of highsec mining dropped almost by half.

Sorry, but this is what happens when we have access to facts. Blink


Simple morale failure of those miners they will be back if they have not already.
And hulks are so cheap now people are getting into mining that never did it before.
Even goonswarmes are training for mining. See posts on page 5 or 6.

But none of this changes the fact that you (James 315) are ineffective in stopping mining even in one belt.
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#233 - 2012-05-18 23:59:41 UTC
TBH, the battle between ganking and mining doesn't have anything to do with how tough (or lack of toughness) Hulks are. No matter how tough you make your Hulk, there will be people who will want to gank you. Let's face it, a top notch destroyer costs about 15 mil to purchase and outfit. An entire squad could dedicate themselves to wiping out a hulk and still come out ahead.

And it isn't about if ganking is 'proper' pvp. It's really about in gameplay mechanics.

Basically, the activity of mining is designed to make miners sitting ducks. Fat, immobile, sitting ducks. We can't mine unless we're rooted to one spot, with nothing to protect us. Heck, with default warp points in the system menu, it's like Eve is designed to make it easier for people to gank miners.

This is completely unlike something like PvE, where most missions occur in deadspace areas where you have to at least enter through a gate, or PvP, where you must use your own (or your friends) cunning to get kills.

I agree that once caught, miners should be easy kills. After all, they're industrial vessels, and even the strongest civilian ship pales in resilience to many military craft. But it should be harder to catch us than *warp to belt...kill...move on*.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#234 - 2012-05-19 01:53:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ditra Vorthran
The OP isn't wrong, to a point (admittedly I haven't read his whole manifesto, there's only so much wall o'text I can plow through in one sitting), but he misses on a few crucial points.

First, he blames the extinction of the nullsec miner on imbalance of the risk vs reward calculation as applied between High Sec mining and 0.0 mining. This calculation is made up of two variables: risk and reward. He focuses solely on reward and blames the high sec miner for unbalancing the equation. Except that HS miners don't control the reward aspect. The market does. In fact, by moving to High Sec, the miners reduced the reward of high sec mining by increasing the supply of High Sec minerals.

Second, he completely glosses over the risk factor. In fact he covers the topic nostalgically, like a conservative wishing for the heyday of the Regan years (or even worse, the '50s). The risk of null sec grew until the nullsec miner was driven out. The reward shrank, the risk grew. You can't blame the prey for moving away from the killing fields, especially if it's not worth their while to stay.

So what does all this mean?

First of all, in order to fix the issues he raises, one of two things need to be done (preferably both). Risk needs to be reduced. Now since CCP can't change the price of Hulks and make them cheaper, they the need to be harder to lose, and thus more miners would be willing to put them at risk.

Second, the reward needs to be increased. Due to the composition of the NS available ores, their value is less than or equal to the value of HS ores. CCP could do this by redistributing mineral compositions in NS and HS space and, if necessary, change the type of ores available in NS belts.

It's easy to blame miners for these problems. It's kind of like blaming Canada. It's easy, but hardly appropriate. Miners only go where the money is. Make NS mining more profitable, and they will come.

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#235 - 2012-05-19 02:53:56 UTC
Ditra Vorthran wrote:
TBH, the battle between ganking and mining doesn't have anything to do with how tough (or lack of toughness) Hulks are. No matter how tough you make your Hulk, there will be people who will want to gank you. Let's face it, a top notch destroyer costs about 15 mil to purchase and outfit. An entire squad could dedicate themselves to wiping out a hulk and still come out ahead.

And it isn't about if ganking is 'proper' pvp. It's really about in gameplay mechanics.

Basically, the activity of mining is designed to make miners sitting ducks. Fat, immobile, sitting ducks. We can't mine unless we're rooted to one spot, with nothing to protect us. Heck, with default warp points in the system menu, it's like Eve is designed to make it easier for people to gank miners.

This is completely unlike something like PvE, where most missions occur in deadspace areas where you have to at least enter through a gate, or PvP, where you must use your own (or your friends) cunning to get kills.

I agree that once caught, miners should be easy kills. After all, they're industrial vessels, and even the strongest civilian ship pales in resilience to many military craft. But it should be harder to catch us than *warp to belt...kill...move on*.

You know why people generally gank hulks and not those 20k EHP mission tengus? Its because mission runners, whilst doing an incredibly boring repetive task, generally don't go AFK. A tengu is worth far more than double the price of a hulk, they can be found everywhere and they already have rats shooting them if you gank them in a mission.

People don't bother because mission runners would just warp off. I think miners could learn from that, this staying at your keyboard strategy sounds like a winner.

Alternatively you could, you know, take those hulks out to low sec and null sec where they belong. Let the genuine new players in coveters and mining frigates mine veldspar without a massive pile of risk averse hulk pilots driving prices down for them.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Cunanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#236 - 2012-05-23 03:18:12 UTC
James 315 wrote:
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
James 315 can not even stop mining in one belt much less one solar system or entire eve.
As for hulkageddon it did not even kill 2% of the miner fleet.
...is what you'd be able to get away with saying, were it not for the fact that CCP Diagoras released official statistics showing the amount of highsec mining dropped almost by half.

Sorry, but this is what happens when we have access to facts. Blink



High sec mining dropped by half? No way. Man you must have killed half the hulks in existence. And those efforts by CCP to ban RMT bots have not been effective at all, even though they have made at least 3 devblogs about their new efforts to root out a source of money they could be ra... I mean receiving in exchange for game time.

Here's some more numbers, 2 months ago CCP banned 150 accounts in one swoop of the ban bat, then in the following 2 days banned another 450ish accounts. These were reported to drive up awareness and make the EVE community aware of a new focus, that of continual banning instead of quarterly banning based on economic data dumps from the game's database. The last estimate I heard was over 30 trillion in isk and assets was removed from game. You are TOTALLY right, this had ZERO effect and your killing of 4000 hulks totally reduced the number of active mining accounts by half.

Just to throw out some numbers, it is typically considered insignificant if the error bound is less than 10% of the measured value. Hulkageddon accounts for 4000ish kills, CCP banned 500 *ACCOUNTS*, so assuming that those 4000 kills resulted in those individuals nerd rage quitting and leaving mining altogether, your efforts are still affected by CCP ban-bat in a significant way.

Mineral prices as a whole have spiked, not just high sec ores, your efforts are focused on high sec miners. How can you effect low/null sec ores and minerals by attacking high sec? The logic is non existent, if anything their prices would drop in percentages not equal to other mineral prices since the restricting factor on ship manufacture will be high sec ores leaving an abundance of low/null sec. However, this is not the case. Null sec ore/mineral price spiked with the high sec ore/mineral prices, suggesting a disconnect between efforts against high sec and the market forces.

Your hypothesis doesn't account for the drop in market prices, however, market prospecting does. Individuals have purchased up significant amounts of minerals to hedge losses from changes in the patch and to gain advantage as the mineral markets are expected to settle at a higher mark with the significant reduction in mining by gun. The purchase of minerals produced a market bubble which was used by some to quantify their efforts at hurting mining, yet the total volume of minerals on market is significantly larger than the volume of minerals produced in the game per month.

Heres the truth of the matter. There exists more in stock piles and reserves of rich players/corps/alliances than can be produced in any short term, ie months. This produces significant lag in the system. The rise/drop in prices is more closely linked to market prospecting by very wealthy individuals about the up coming patch (ie change of looting system...)


Go ahead and continue to believe that your efforts are making more than a drop in the bucket, and I will continue to observe purchases of minerals in the billions from high sec mining corps.
Redbraids Crafterson
The Asteroid is Depleted
#237 - 2012-05-23 04:09:21 UTC
Cunanium wrote:
James 315 wrote:
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
James 315 can not even stop mining in one belt much less one solar system or entire eve.
As for hulkageddon it did not even kill 2% of the miner fleet.
...is what you'd be able to get away with saying, were it not for the fact that CCP Diagoras released official statistics showing the amount of highsec mining dropped almost by half.

Sorry, but this is what happens when we have access to facts. Blink



High sec mining dropped by half? No way. Man you must have killed half the hulks in existence. And those efforts by CCP to ban RMT bots have not been effective at all, even though they have made at least 3 devblogs about their new efforts to root out a source of money they could be ra... I mean receiving in exchange for game time.

Here's some more numbers, 2 months ago CCP banned 150 accounts in one swoop of the ban bat, then in the following 2 days banned another 450ish accounts. These were reported to drive up awareness and make the EVE community aware of a new focus, that of continual banning instead of quarterly banning based on economic data dumps from the game's database. The last estimate I heard was over 30 trillion in isk and assets was removed from game. You are TOTALLY right, this had ZERO effect and your killing of 4000 hulks totally reduced the number of active mining accounts by half.

Just to throw out some numbers, it is typically considered insignificant if the error bound is less than 10% of the measured value. Hulkageddon accounts for 4000ish kills, CCP banned 500 *ACCOUNTS*, so assuming that those 4000 kills resulted in those individuals nerd rage quitting and leaving mining altogether, your efforts are still affected by CCP ban-bat in a significant way.

Mineral prices as a whole have spiked, not just high sec ores, your efforts are focused on high sec miners. How can you effect low/null sec ores and minerals by attacking high sec? The logic is non existent, if anything their prices would drop in percentages not equal to other mineral prices since the restricting factor on ship manufacture will be high sec ores leaving an abundance of low/null sec. However, this is not the case. Null sec ore/mineral price spiked with the high sec ore/mineral prices, suggesting a disconnect between efforts against high sec and the market forces.

Your hypothesis doesn't account for the drop in market prices, however, market prospecting does. Individuals have purchased up significant amounts of minerals to hedge losses from changes in the patch and to gain advantage as the mineral markets are expected to settle at a higher mark with the significant reduction in mining by gun. The purchase of minerals produced a market bubble which was used by some to quantify their efforts at hurting mining, yet the total volume of minerals on market is significantly larger than the volume of minerals produced in the game per month.

Heres the truth of the matter. There exists more in stock piles and reserves of rich players/corps/alliances than can be produced in any short term, ie months. This produces significant lag in the system. The rise/drop in prices is more closely linked to market prospecting by very wealthy individuals about the up coming patch (ie change of looting system...)


Go ahead and continue to believe that your efforts are making more than a drop in the bucket, and I will continue to observe purchases of minerals in the billions from high sec mining corps.


I am curious if we could find the numbers of actual minerals moved through the game via trade and compare it to the amount of minerals mined during the same time span. It might be an interesting number with all this talk of markets.
Xpaulusx
Naari LLC
#238 - 2012-05-23 04:13:24 UTC
Giving the OP the benefit of atleast possibly being right, even in a worst case senario, most Null Sec Alliances even small ones are quite capable of forming self contained economies, mining, building everything they need to survive. Economic Isolationism.

......................................................
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#239 - 2012-05-23 04:26:33 UTC
Anyone that believes hulkageddon is about ridding eve of bots... well, I have a bridge i'm looking to sell, too.

If you look at the bigger picture for a sec you see a few core players maipulating the eve players to bring down ore production so a select few can make a fortune selling their stuff.
Quite simple, really and I'll explaine:

If I sold what I have now i'd make about 4bil, not much but I'm waiting to see will it go higher.

Keep shooting those hulks - you're making me money.
AkaiDruiD II
The Ghost of Creuss
#240 - 2012-05-23 04:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: AkaiDruiD II
James 315 wrote:
According to the official statistics released this week by CCP Diagoras, the volume of ore mined in highsec has dropped by a staggering 45.53%. Nearly half of all highsec mining has been wiped out, thanks to coordinated anti-highsec mining operations (most prominently Hulkageddon V), and the extraordinary shift in public opinion about highsec mining. You can read CCP Diagoras' tweet here.

If we were to believe the conventional wisdom among the carebears and the pseudointellectuals of Market Discussions, highsec mining is too vast and pervasive to stop. Prior to the latest round of Hulkageddon, they confidently predicted that gankers wouldn't put a dent in the amount of mining. They were wrong.

Miners have been slaughtered by the thousands, but that's not all. Anti-mining operations are primarily instruments of terror. While thousands of miners died, more importantly, thousands more miners have given up mining. Ordinarily we wouldn't be able to quantify the effect of the latter, and the carebear apologists would be free, in their ignorance, to keep crowing about the absence of any impact. But thanks to CCP Diagoras, we can make our enemies eat crow instead.

I know there are some skeptics who will grasp to the straws of any alternate explanation, so I'll provide a preemptive debunking service here. The mining of ore in highsec did not decline during the measured period due to a drop in botting. Over the relevant period, there was no mass-banning of bots by CCP. Quite the opposite, in fact. My own observations, corroborated by the dedicated bot-watchers in Crime & Punishment, have actually seen a proportionate increase in botting of late; a new network of easily-identified botters is crawling over the belts in highsec as we speak.

What's happened is that the human miners, unlike the bots, became aware of Hulkageddon and have ceased mining. When humans abandoned the belts, the bots became a larger percentage of those left behind, and they stand out more. For example, a new type of ice-mining bot, very common today, flocks in the ice fields. They use an identical ship name scheme (a space before the ship name, easy to spot groups of them using your D-scanner), and they warp out one-by-one if you lock them. I have cleared out entire ice fields with a frigate just by locking up the bots, because there are no humans left mining there.

The drop in mining has been disproportionately--perhaps entirely--caused by a decline in the number of human miners, not bots. Thus, the decrease in mining among humans in highsec is greater than 45.53%. We don't have official statistics on what percentage of the total mining in highsec is done by bots, but by all accounts it's a hefty amount. Therefore, this is the bottom line:

The majority of human highsec miners have quit mining.

Two weeks ago, I wrote a Manifesto II in which I called upon the people of EVE to put a stop to all mining in highsec. Most people probably thought it was crazy to even consider such a thing possible. Not anymore. We're already more than halfway there!

Granted, some miners will return to the belts once Hulkageddon ends. But many will not. Having been forced to adapt and try out other professions, and having found them more rewarding, they will leave mining for good. As the miners' numbers diminish, so does their power and influence over CCP.

As for the gankers, their numbers are growing rapidly. Each day, more and more pilots are getting hooked on ganking. They see the miners for what they are: targets. And they will prey upon an ever-decreasing number of carebears.

In light of these facts, we must now realize that the extinction of highsec mining is not just an impossible dream anymore. It's something that we, as the EVE community, can realistically accomplish together. If you have not yet committed to the fight against the carebears, then I encourage you to join us now. This is your chance. Kill some highsec miners before they're all gone!

- 315


oh boy! can I become a gank b!tch pilot killin unarmed ships too. And when I finishing picking on all the children I can fly around on the roids....won't that be fun...

The idiot that came up wit the 'carebear' term should get over his loss of his carebear when he was 2yrs old. It's a dumb term and I'm surprised it's used.

I have an idea for an event; How about every gank b!tch become a valid target anywhere in highsec and no matter what ship they fly, they can only fire their dirty diapers....

╭∩╮(◣_◢)╭∩╮