These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Using a tier 1 carrier for solo low sec pve

Author
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#81 - 2012-05-22 17:50:36 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
When you provide a solution so that it does not affect anyone else but you still get what you want, I see nothing wrong.


What is wrong is that banning carriers from stargates is a deliberate balance choice. If you don't like that choice, either get a cyno alt like every other capital pilot, or accept that you aren't going to be able to do this particular stupid and suicidal thing. Or just buy your carrier and self destruct it immediately, which will produce the same end result but without forcing some poor programmer to change the gate code to accommodate you.
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2012-05-22 17:57:59 UTC
Denying capitals from using Stargates simultaneously or within a short period of time from each other is a balance decision, absolutely.

To outright deny them all indefinitely is just lazy.
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-05-22 18:51:10 UTC
People said thanatos repeatedly -_-

Either way carriers are not menacing except as super logistics.

It's funny how you want to change the sandbox to suit you, when it would make it worse for others (slow jumping of caps through gates)

Yes a sandbox lets you use a ship for something it wasn't meant to be used for, but you can't ALSO expect it to be very effective.
One of the "effectiveness" stats on a carrier is the jumpdrive/no startgate balance.

You don't solo mission in a Scimitar or an Onyx either, even though it's physically possible.

Think of it like trying to fit an aircraft carrier up a river. EVE has never been solo friendly, it just tolerates solo activities.

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#84 - 2012-05-22 19:07:24 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
I like the fact no one has yet to provide a valid reason why my alternative suggestion wouldn't work for capital stargate travel.


Ok, fine.

Capitals are meant to move by cyno because the beacon lights to the entire system, basically broadcasting to anyone interested that a capital may be entering. This is intentional. Obviously, gate jumps don't light up a system the same way.

In fact, cynos are meant to provide tactical points at which combat can/should occur. Without the beacon, that doesn't happen, and that's bad.

As for why a gate timer wouldn't work so well... you do realize that all it would take to tackle a cynoless cap would be to jump your own cap through before your gank, right? Silly carrier reapproaches gate only to have a Moros jump through and siege.

Bottom line is that cyno travel was put in place for a reason. Capital travel without cynos means no cynos are lit and there's no beacon showing incoming capitals. Gate travel would also limit the effectiveness of cyno jammers, which are rather a big deal in null. Incursions also cyno jam systems, which presumably is also a fully intended mechanic to limit investment of capital ships on those fronts.

So no, I don't think your timer idea really solves anything, and yes I do think it creates more problems than you realize.

Look, it's been said many, many times already: just get yourself a damn cyno alt and go for it. Buddy program one and you can have it up in less than week for the price of a single plex. If you decide it's something you want to stick with either keep the account or gang up with some other people to make it work for you. But at the very least, you ought to try it the way it works now before you propose massive changes.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#85 - 2012-05-22 19:14:14 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
Denying capitals from using Stargates simultaneously or within a short period of time from each other is a balance decision, absolutely.

To outright deny them all indefinitely is just lazy.

you can petition to CCP, none of us gives a f what you think is balance.

thanny is the best carrier for what you want, anything can tackle you and you won't be able to kill them, you can't jump gate, and you need cyno to move out of your current system.

all are facts, accept it or stfu
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-05-22 20:24:21 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Drakarin wrote:
I like the fact no one has yet to provide a valid reason why my alternative suggestion wouldn't work for capital stargate travel.


Ok, fine.

Capitals are meant to move by cyno because the beacon lights to the entire system, basically broadcasting to anyone interested that a capital may be entering. This is intentional. Obviously, gate jumps don't light up a system the same way.

In fact, cynos are meant to provide tactical points at which combat can/should occur. Without the beacon, that doesn't happen, and that's bad.

As for why a gate timer wouldn't work so well... you do realize that all it would take to tackle a cynoless cap would be to jump your own cap through before your gank, right? Silly carrier reapproaches gate only to have a Moros jump through and siege.

Bottom line is that cyno travel was put in place for a reason. Capital travel without cynos means no cynos are lit and there's no beacon showing incoming capitals. Gate travel would also limit the effectiveness of cyno jammers, which are rather a big deal in null. Incursions also cyno jam systems, which presumably is also a fully intended mechanic to limit investment of capital ships on those fronts.

So no, I don't think your timer idea really solves anything, and yes I do think it creates more problems than you realize.

Look, it's been said many, many times already: just get yourself a damn cyno alt and go for it. Buddy program one and you can have it up in less than week for the price of a single plex. If you decide it's something you want to stick with either keep the account or gang up with some other people to make it work for you. But at the very least, you ought to try it the way it works now before you propose massive changes.


I think you may have misunderstood me. I was never proposing that cynos and jump drives be removed. Those will still function, and to move more than 2 capitals in any sane amount of time that would be the only way to go about doing it. Make the timer every 30 minutes for 1 capital, per stargate. No problem. It can be long, as long as it's possible for just one to slip through every now and again. It's not totally unreasonable is it?

I guess I'll have to get an alt, but man. Having to compromise immersion to just function normally after years of playing the game. That's not really cool.

It's hard when EvE is the only hardcore persistent MMORPG on the market. Certainly the only one involving spaceships.. it's hard when this is true and it tends to reject your playstyle. Frustration tends to build up in me, I'm sorry if I might come across as cold or rude. I don't mean that. I just like going at it alone, and when the only game close to what you want doesn't like that playstyle much it can mess with your head.


Mr Ranger
Players vs. EVE
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2012-05-22 22:29:45 UTC
Drakarin wrote:


I think you may have misunderstood me. I was never proposing that cynos and jump drives be removed. Those will still function, and to move more than 2 capitals in any sane amount of time that would be the only way to go about doing it. Make the timer every 30 minutes for 1 capital, per stargate. No problem. It can be long, as long as it's possible for just one to slip through every now and again. It's not totally unreasonable is it?

I guess I'll have to get an alt, but man. Having to compromise immersion to just function normally after years of playing the game. That's not really cool.

It's hard when EvE is the only hardcore persistent MMORPG on the market. Certainly the only one involving spaceships.. it's hard when this is true and it tends to reject your playstyle. Frustration tends to build up in me, I'm sorry if I might come across as cold or rude. I don't mean that. I just like going at it alone, and when the only game close to what you want doesn't like that playstyle much it can mess with your head.



How do you decide which captial jumps if two capitals attempt to use the gate at the same time, is it 1 jump/30 min per way. Can i jump one way and someone else jump back the other? How does it help you if someone else who is soloing in a carrier in the same system uses the gate before you do, now you are stuck waiting 30 min before you can even try to move, not to mention he will want to come back in system after he is done so will be waiting on the other side. Your solution doesnt really fix the problem you seem to have, which there is no problem, you can solo carrier all you want without leaving system. If you want to move, get friends or alts.
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#88 - 2012-05-22 22:43:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Copine Callmeknau
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
Drakarin wrote:
If you can explain to me what reason there is that would validate complete denial of stargate use for capitals, I'm perfectly open to hearing it. As long as there is a timer on each stargate preventing more than one capital from jumping through every 5 to 10 minutes, I can't think of a good reason.

I am genuinely curious to know if there is one. I am not saying the game should be broken or severely changed to suit my needs. I merely pointing out an effective solution that would allow for both parties to be satisfied without penalty.


Have you ever taken a really large poop? The kind that strains your rubbery ring-piece to the snapping point, and makes you feel like you're giving birth to an adult Shaquille O'Neal who's punching his way out of your bowels?

That's why carriers can't fit through stargates.

Seven years since reading about the infamous impoc incident, thinking that was just the coolest thing ever, and immediately signing up for an eve trial.

And you are still making me lol ^^


Drakarin wrote:
I guess I'll have to get an alt, but man. Having to compromise immersion to just function normally after years of playing the game. That's not really cool.

ahahahahaha, AN alt? If you're serious about running l5's you're gonna need 2 or 3 of them. In case you missed it before, you'll get less than a 50% hit rate on l5 missions, they'll give you gated ones you can't take a carrier on.
You'll need to be pulling missions from multiple char's if you want to chain l5's the same way you would chain l4's, I'd also really recommend having one of them go gung-ho on social skills so you can reject a good amount of missions even when in reject cool down.

btw I wouldn't really call this 'function normally', I'd call this min-maxed cashwhoring endgame for a solo player.

There should be a rather awesome pic here

Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-05-22 23:49:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Carriers are not designed to be solo ships. Stop crying and accept it.
I mean what next, are you gonna burst into tears over the fact the Megathron isn't designed for cargo hauling or something?

Every ship has a defined role - while you could cram on 7 cargo expanders to a Megathron and call it a hauler, you'll still run into problems. Same principle here really. You can run a "true solo" PVE carrier, but it's not gonna function well within the utterly arbitrary limits you placed on it.
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#90 - 2012-05-23 00:13:53 UTC
bring back AOE DD
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#91 - 2012-05-23 00:18:26 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Freighters and Jump freighters are the only capitals which can use gates.
Technically, the orca is a capital ship.

Drakarin wrote:
With the new drone damage modules coming out, as well as more skill points into drones, that should not be a problem unless you brought along 20 battleships and 5 HICs.
What ? Lol
Any active battleship with a bonus (rokh, mael, hyperion, abaddon) can tank a carrier (until you run out of cap boosters).

Drakarin wrote:
Yep, makes sense that a multi billion isk ship can't kill one small tackle ship eventually.
I think you missed the titan memo and all the goon tears lol.




This thread is one of the best I have ever read. Pirate

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2012-05-23 01:00:46 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
bring back AOE DD

You'd like that, wouldn't you?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-05-23 01:30:29 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
They are forcing me to either have an alt, which I refuse to on the grounds that it's 100% cheating, or have friends, which defeats the point in this case. I want to go solo.


roflmao

Look at this. Just look at it.
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2012-05-23 02:06:36 UTC
Mr Ranger wrote:
Drakarin wrote:


I think you may have misunderstood me. I was never proposing that cynos and jump drives be removed. Those will still function, and to move more than 2 capitals in any sane amount of time that would be the only way to go about doing it. Make the timer every 30 minutes for 1 capital, per stargate. No problem. It can be long, as long as it's possible for just one to slip through every now and again. It's not totally unreasonable is it?

I guess I'll have to get an alt, but man. Having to compromise immersion to just function normally after years of playing the game. That's not really cool.

It's hard when EvE is the only hardcore persistent MMORPG on the market. Certainly the only one involving spaceships.. it's hard when this is true and it tends to reject your playstyle. Frustration tends to build up in me, I'm sorry if I might come across as cold or rude. I don't mean that. I just like going at it alone, and when the only game close to what you want doesn't like that playstyle much it can mess with your head.



How do you decide which captial jumps if two capitals attempt to use the gate at the same time, is it 1 jump/30 min per way. Can i jump one way and someone else jump back the other? How does it help you if someone else who is soloing in a carrier in the same system uses the gate before you do, now you are stuck waiting 30 min before you can even try to move, not to mention he will want to come back in system after he is done so will be waiting on the other side. Your solution doesnt really fix the problem you seem to have, which there is no problem, you can solo carrier all you want without leaving system. If you want to move, get friends or alts.


Well my solution does not make it easy for me to move about through different systems, it just makes it possible alone and without an alt; without destabilizing null sec sov systems or anything since it would take forever for an actual feel of capitals to travel that way.

Both people get what they want so I don't really see an issue with it.

As for the mechanics, whoever the server receives a packet from first goes through, the other person is denied. It's 30 minutes per stargate but not on both sides, just the individual stargate. So I could go through, and come back once every 30 minutes as long as no other capital ships use it. And, let's be honest, even if it were possible to use a stargate I doubt many would, so it would rarely be an issue for me.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#95 - 2012-05-23 02:25:09 UTC
Drakarin wrote:
Both people get what they want so I don't really see an issue with it.


We've already explained the issues, you just don't want to accept that "it is a deliberate balance decision to make it impossible to move capital ships solo" is the answer.

Anyway, let's say that CCP decides to have pity on you and allow an occasional capital ship through a gate. Now they need to add code do:

1) Restrict the use of the gate with your timer.

2) Detect ship classes and prevent capitals from using any gate into highsec.

3) Detect ship classes and prevent capitals from using any gate into a system where a cyno jamming effect exists (which is not a permanent thing, so you can't just set the go/no-go flag once on patch day).

4) Detect the maximum jump range with your ship and skills and prevent you from entering a gate to a system that you couldn't jump to (some gates connect systems separated by a longer distance than a capital ship can move in a single jump) so that you don't gain any advantage over the cyno alt.

5) Detect that you used a gate in a capital ship and remove your cap, so you can't, say, jump through a gate to attack a camp on the other side and enter the fight with a huge advantage over the (hypothetical) carrier that jumped into the same camp through a cyno.



Now, once CCP has done all that work (and probably more to address balance issues I'm missing), instead of spending that time on things that actually matter, what do we gain? The ability to jump a carrier un-scouted through a gate and die shamefully. Sorry, but this is not a productive use of time.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#96 - 2012-05-23 02:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
No alt character here, although this is merely for the immersion [dust 514 character doesn't count as an alt].

I used to have a carrier and it was a mistake to skill for one [maybe if I see one without a pilot the skill will come in handy],
but the problem for me was that it was just so slow. Since then I have owned multiple tech 3's [although I have been ship spinning the last year really].

Oh and I am a solo player too [but an RPer who hates mission running etc] which makes hauling a carrier around a pain.
Gorenaire
Theosophical Society
#97 - 2012-05-23 11:04:28 UTC
please proceed to Amamake or Old Man Star, I heard they have a lot of lvl 4 agents down there in low sec.

What could go wrong with doing missions in low sec in a carrier ? and dont forget to put faction/officer mods on it if you can .

If someone shows up on your site, just insta warp to the next gate and jump.
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-05-23 17:04:46 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Drakarin wrote:
Both people get what they want so I don't really see an issue with it.


We've already explained the issues, you just don't want to accept that "it is a deliberate balance decision to make it impossible to move capital ships solo" is the answer.

Anyway, let's say that CCP decides to have pity on you and allow an occasional capital ship through a gate. Now they need to add code do:

1) Restrict the use of the gate with your timer.

2) Detect ship classes and prevent capitals from using any gate into highsec.

3) Detect ship classes and prevent capitals from using any gate into a system where a cyno jamming effect exists (which is not a permanent thing, so you can't just set the go/no-go flag once on patch day).

4) Detect the maximum jump range with your ship and skills and prevent you from entering a gate to a system that you couldn't jump to (some gates connect systems separated by a longer distance than a capital ship can move in a single jump) so that you don't gain any advantage over the cyno alt.

5) Detect that you used a gate in a capital ship and remove your cap, so you can't, say, jump through a gate to attack a camp on the other side and enter the fight with a huge advantage over the (hypothetical) carrier that jumped into the same camp through a cyno.



Now, once CCP has done all that work (and probably more to address balance issues I'm missing), instead of spending that time on things that actually matter, what do we gain? The ability to jump a carrier un-scouted through a gate and die shamefully. Sorry, but this is not a productive use of time.


You act as if I am the only person it would benefit. I'm sure other capital pilots would use it here and there too. Of course, CCP cannot devote too many resources to a game improvement that few would use, but every now and then? Sure. The minority can't be the focus but to completely ignore them all the time, that's not good.

I am not without reason though, of course if coding in this change truly was difficult beyond what you'd assume as a laymen I can accept that. I honestly doubt know, but I doubt anyone else does besides a CCP dev.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#99 - 2012-05-23 17:18:42 UTC
CCP could let caps use stargates if they wanted.

Not allowing it is a deliberate balance choice, much like not giving drones to nagas.