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Legions and Lvl 4's, are they effective
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Loriarti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-05-22 04:42:40 UTC
Pretty much what this topic is named, I have a apoc, can field a navy apoc, but I always liked the idea of the t3's....

So, how effective is a legion for lvl 4's? Whats a good fit? Is it worth it? Or should I just buy a battleship... maybe a Nightmare.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2 - 2012-05-22 04:53:52 UTC
The Paladin or Nightmare is better. The Legion just doesn't have the range to be very effective in Level 4s. You'll waste a lot of time moving towards rats.

The Legion is/was awesome in Incursions.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Loriarti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-05-22 04:55:39 UTC
Hmmm well I'm about 30 days out from a effective pala / nightmare....

So the Legion isn't the Tengu of armor? :(
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#4 - 2012-05-22 05:00:27 UTC
Loriarti wrote:
Hmmm well I'm about 30 days out from a effective pala / nightmare....

So the Legion isn't the Tengu of armor? :(


Far from it.

Medium turret weapons, even on bonused ships, just don't quite have the range to make really good Level 4 mission boats.

The only reason the Tengu is good is because HML's have a wonderful range and can reliably apply their DPS at any range.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Loriarti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-05-22 05:08:33 UTC
Makes sense :( but it does not make me happy to hear it
Moabama
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-05-22 05:19:54 UTC
I believe I have seen a fit for a HAM Legion...no lazers. This fit should be comparable to the Tengu but in armor rather than shield.

As a matter of fact I found it in Battleclinic...
[Legion, Legion - HAM]
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Corpum B-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
Domination Warp Disruptor
Domination Stasis Webifier
Republic Fleet Target Painter

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Terror Rage Assault Missile

Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Trimark Armor Pump II
Medium Anti-Thermic Pump II

Legion Defensive - Augmented Plating
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization

Read more: http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/41261-PVP-HAM-Legion.html#ixzz1vZa50N7X

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/41261-PVP-HAM-Legion.html

This fit is listed for PVP, but I bet you could tweak it for PVE to be even better.
ShadowFire15
Arkadian Empire
#7 - 2012-05-22 05:21:57 UTC
even with a tweaked fit like that the range is still bad with hams if im not mistaken

[i]Stan Smith had a snow storm over weekend guy was shoveling snow outside, so i shot him and mined the snow myself. concord never showed up. on an unrelated note, i have a court date next tuesday[/i]
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#8 - 2012-05-22 05:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Your range on that HAM Legion is terrible for missions. Even on a fit designed specifically for HAMs, the range is still terrible:

[Legion, Legion copy 4]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Damage Control II
Imperial Navy Medium Armor Repairer

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Nova Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

Legion Defensive - Nanobot Injector
Legion Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Legion Engineering - Power Core Multiplier
Legion Offensive - Assault Optimization
Legion Propulsion - Chassis Optimization

Does 634 DPS at 34.6km - with 5% missile ROF and velocity implants and nearly maxed skills (HAM Spec IV, Warhead Upgrades IV). That's hardly worthy for Level 4 missions.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-22 05:40:03 UTC
Even though Tengu is getting nerfed it will still have its current range.
Viribus
Aurora.
OnlyFleets.
#10 - 2012-05-22 05:41:30 UTC
The reason the tengu is effective isn't HMLs, it's because it gets an effective 100% bonus to dps, while the other T3s get a 50% bonus to dps.

And does anyone have a source for the supposed tengu nerf or is it just one of those things people mindlessly regurgitate?

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-22 05:55:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Viribus wrote:
The reason the tengu is effective isn't HMLs, it's because it gets an effective 100% bonus to dps, while the other T3s get a 50% bonus to dps.


Legion has optimal range of 33 km with lasers. Tengu can spam HMLs @ 100+ km. Yeah, clearly not a advantage.

Viribus wrote:
And does anyone have a source for the supposed tengu nerf or is it just one of those things people mindlessly regurgitate?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8

So it's the fact that T3s shouldn't be better than T2. Legion is good example of how T3s should be. It's good at everything it does, but it's not better than specialized T2s.
Viribus
Aurora.
OnlyFleets.
#12 - 2012-05-22 06:30:57 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Viribus wrote:
The reason the tengu is effective isn't HMLs, it's because it gets an effective 100% bonus to dps, while the other T3s get a 50% bonus to dps.


Legion has optimal range of 33 km with lasers. Tengu can spam HMLs @ 100+ km. Yeah, clearly not a advantage.


And if the legion had the same 37.5% bonus to RoF and 25% bonus to damage as the tengu, they'd out-dps HML tengus by about 45%. A pulse legion with scorch would have almost the exact same range and dps as a HAM tengu.

Hurr durr way to totally miss my point. Lemme reiterate: if the tengu got the same pathetic 50% damage bonus the other T3s got, it would be awful. A six-launcher tengu would barely do more dps than a drake.

Also thx m8 for linking me to the beginning of a 50-minute long video

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-22 07:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Viribus wrote:
A pulse legion with scorch would have almost the exact same range and dps as a HAM tengu.


33 km optimal IS with Scorch. Pulse Legion dps is a bit over 700 with IN Multifrequency (11,2k+4,6k). HAM Tengu does 900-1100 dps.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-05-22 08:10:13 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5wnCBfkMh8

So it's the fact that T3s shouldn't be better than T2. Legion is good example of how T3s should be. It's good at everything it does, but it's not better than specialized T2s.


i'm at work right now so i can't watch the vid; is there any concrete detail on what the nerf will look like?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#15 - 2012-05-22 11:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Melina Lin
Legion with two tracking mods gets 40K range easily. That said it is not very good as a general purpose mission ship, because Scorch DPS is only 550 or so. Grinding a lot of battleships takes too long IMO and short range ammo means way too much flying around as people have already mentioned. Ammo cost is an issue too.

However it is excellent for blitzing certain annoying missions, so having one in your mission hub may still be worth it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2012-05-22 14:18:13 UTC
Melina Lin wrote:
Legion with two tracking mods gets 40K range easily. That said it is not very good as a general purpose mission ship, because Scorch DPS is only 550 or so. Grinding a lot of battleships takes too long IMO and short range ammo means way too much flying around as people have already mentioned. Ammo cost is an issue too.

However it is excellent for blitzing certain annoying missions, so having one in your mission hub may still be worth it.


This was my experience as well. I kept an Absolution on hand for blitzing missions that were faster in a small ship. Shorter range than the Legion, but did a fine job for those missions.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Viribus
Aurora.
OnlyFleets.
#17 - 2012-05-22 14:45:32 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Viribus wrote:
A pulse legion with scorch would have almost the exact same range and dps as a HAM tengu.


33 km optimal IS with Scorch. Pulse Legion dps is a bit over 700 with IN Multifrequency (11,2k+4,6k). HAM Tengu does 900-1100 dps.


I emphasised the important part. Did you miss the whole bit earlier about bonuses or are you just illiterate?

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-05-22 16:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Viribus wrote:
I emphasised the important part. Did you miss the whole bit earlier about bonuses or are you just illiterate?


Almost same DPS?

~550 vs 900-1100. Yeah, it's very close.

If only T2 and faction mods it's: ~550 vs 950.
Steve Mittal
REACT0R
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-05-22 17:17:03 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Viribus wrote:
I emphasised the important part. Did you miss the whole bit earlier about bonuses or are you just illiterate?


Almost same DPS?

~550 vs 900-1100. Yeah, it's very close.

If only T2 and faction mods it's: ~550 vs 950.


Can you show us a HAM Tengu fit with 900 dps without officer mods?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-05-22 17:32:03 UTC
A pulse Legion with 4 hs does 550 dps with scorch, @50km optimal. With multi, it's 700 dps. It has the tracking to hit everything perfectly.

A NM with 4 hs does 1.1k dps, almost 1.3k if counting drones. Long Tach range. Tracking bonus lets low tracking tachs hit well down to cruisers.

A Tengu with 4 bcs does 750 kinetic dps, 500 nonkinetic (due to lack of 25% kinetic missile bonus). It hits cruisers for full dmg, can hit frigs decently if rigored.

A CNR with 4 bcs does 550 cruise missile dps. Drones add another 150 dps, with max drone skills. Cruise missiles don't even hit cruisers for full dmg even when rigored.


tl;dr:
It's not that Legion is bad, just that competition in the laserboats category is too good.
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