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High sec plexes need entry keys

Author
Tel Airuta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-05-21 08:28:46 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Tel Airuta wrote:
oh! but some people would say! you could have fought him or flipped the wreck...yeah sure, a month old char in a drake against a 2 year old char in a tech 3 legion.. we all know which way that fight would go.


I don't disagree with your general sentiment, but I don't think an Exploration ship would be fitted with a point should you go for the wreck :D As soon as they see you flashy they'll run away, anyway.


I thought the same thing too, but another new player found out no this is not the case. Not only do the freebooters get their jollies blitzing through the plexes and making tons of money , but they know they can insta-pop anyone in a frig or destroyer and using one mid slot for a point scram costs them next to nothing in terms of tanking and dps output when compared wither to the rats OR THE NEW players.
Quote:

I think also this is the sort of thing you could yak to a CSM member about. Maybe T3s are too strong for the easiest sites and should be locked out like Battleships are? This wouldn't stop the oldest characters going through the sites faster, but it might help newer characters compete in highsec.


Dont know much about CSM, only been active for a month, and wouldnt know how to get in touch with em.

I dont think just locking peeps out based on hull size will matter, the freebooters can just downgrade to a t2 frigate or DS fitted destroyer in 1-2/10 sites anyway. They wont risk 4/10s anyway, and 3/10s then can easily solo. By putting a key at the entrance gate it atleast gives new peeps a chance to finish the site without being blitzed by these carebears.

As it is the plex is risky for a new player, who doesnt have much money and skills to begin with, plus the threat of being scrammed by the rats is always there and if you want to balance things out, if he Warps away, he can no longer access the plex.
Shirakus
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-05-21 09:03:46 UTC
Since you seem rather new to Eve, I'll give you some friendly advice on how issues like this are normally solved in Eve. Going to the forums and asking for the game to be changed generally doesn't work and usually gets you ridiculed and flamed. Instead, get together with some friends, use a locator agent to find out where your nemesis is. Stalk him to find travel patterns. Get yourself and so friends in cheap ships with high damage. Park along his path and suicide gank him. If as you say, It's a deadspace fit T3, you should be able to scoop enough loot to cover the losses. Repeat this ever time someone **** you or your friends off.
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-21 09:38:46 UTC
Roime wrote:
Nerf the hisec plex drops to a reasonable level, and maybe the evernoobs leave them to realnoobs.


The easiest way to do that would be to increase the supply, which would reduce the price.
BeforetheStorm90
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-05-21 09:43:02 UTC
Tel Airuta wrote:

From what I understand the whole business of 1-3/10 complexes is to give new players a leg up rather than grinding through missions


Where in the world did you get this idea? The only new player slated content in this game is the tutorial and the sister epic arc. Everything else is a free for all.

1. I for one enjoy complexes greatly because of their highly competitive nature. I feel that that is one of their greatest features.

2. As you say, you are new to Eve, as such, I'll try to give you some advice. Don't go to freaking 0.9s and expect empty plexes. Find less traveled space; 0.6s and lower will get you away from most hubs.

3. Everyone starts out small and works their way up. I first used an ishkur back in the day, fantastic ship, cheap, and relatively easy to train into. Using that ship I was more than able to find and run the vast majority of high sec plexes. It seems that you don't consider yourself competitive in your Drake, well, I can tell you right now that you are WRONG. If your attempts up to this point are not working, then TRY SOMETHING ELSE, and if that dosen't work? KEEP TRYING.

4. Furthermore, lets examine your seemingly lack of being in a player corp (assuming you're not posting with an alt). Do you know what one of the best ways to counter high SP toons in pimped out ships is? Superior numbers. Can you honestly expect a new player to be equal in combat effectiveness to a toon years in the making? And do you know how you gain superior numbers? You join a competent player corp. NPC corps are for trial accounts and those who cannot bear to communicate with fellow human beings. I shudder to think how many accounts have gone active because people took NPC corps as representative of the rest of Eve.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#25 - 2012-05-21 10:03:43 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
I have seen this a few times, single Tengu, usually Russian, tanking all aggro, pop the boss, get the loot, fly off. Last time it was owned by what appeared to be a 0.0 corp or former 0.0 corp.

Not sure if the Botpocalypse has any effect on this, but I can confirm a pattern :Tengu, can tank all, straight for the boss.

(does not beat my BC with the battleship size AB every time though)

This problem I do not have when exploring in 0.0 space.



Must also point out that in the Exploration channel, I brought up the use of T3 ships in high sec exploration and they started to act like incursioners talking down to someone pointing out the fallacy of VG grinding - same "it's my ISK fountain! How dare you" attitude.

If the high sec exploration is intended to noobs - though you have to admit that 4/10 DED threat level is not easy - CCP should be aware that indeed people are blitzing/botting them in T3 ships.


I don't know when you were in the Exploration channel, but there are in fact people there that have raised the same concern as you. Of course the tengu pilots (seemingly 95 %) will mostly react 'not amused'.
I would also like to point out that when you find a juicy deadspace module, you sell it to someone else, thus taking his money - the comparision to incursions is moot, since there is no isk generated (except the little bounties and when you sell your overseer effects).

Finding the sites has just become too easy with all the changes and community efforts (keys for probe formation moving/resizing, signature filtering, not totally random sig-ids and so on). This also lead to an influx of people doing exploration.

Now making those sites 'lowsec pockets' would be hilarious, but i doubt it will/can be implemented.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#26 - 2012-05-21 10:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Most of the old static complexes used access keys, so CCP certainly had the option to do this with exploration plexes as well.

I think they wouldn't be a bad idea for some plexes (not all), reducing the window of opportunity for someone to ninja (and especially ninja-blitz) the loot. Ofcourse you'll still have people coming in and ninja the keys, so it won't disappear, but that's OK.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#27 - 2012-05-21 10:26:45 UTC
Tel Airuta wrote:
Dont know much about CSM, only been active for a month, and wouldnt know how to get in touch with em.


EVEmail them, or go to Jita Park Speakers' Corner topic, they are taking submissions for issues to mention to CCP. Stuff like the new player experience is something they will pay attention to (that's not just the tutorials but everything you'll run into your first few months).
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2012-05-21 10:34:37 UTC
Tel Airuta wrote:
. If they were in low and 0.0 they would need to be in a fleet, and share the loot and be vulnerable to attack.




No, not really. Plenty of people solo everything up to 10/10s out in nullsec. If they watch intel and dscan, they won't die.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-05-21 10:45:05 UTC
Cross-posting is bad.
Tel Airuta wrote:
Let me give you a reality check. T3 and DS fitted pilots have turned 1-3/10 plexes into THIER PRIVATE Playground.
No they haven't. What you're suggesting is that they should do that, though, because guess who's going to get all those keys — the newbies or the guys with the tools and experience to do things quickly?

The fact that you are there with them proves that it's not their private playground — it just proves that they're better at doing them than you are. If you don't want to compete, there is (semi)non-competitive ways of making ISK. If you're going to engage in an inherently competitive activity, expect to compete and don't expect the other guy to do it on equal terms.

Quote:
That is the reality.
No. The reality is that you're making assumptions about how things should work that are directly contradicted by reality. 1-3 complexes are not for new players — they're for small ships. While there is some correlation between the two, they aren't actually connected. The reality is that they're not freebooters — you are just being inefficient. They're already first-come, first-serve… and you're not quick enough to be the first in line.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#30 - 2012-05-21 10:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Tippia wrote:
Cross-posting is bad.
Tel Airuta wrote:
Let me give you a reality check. T3 and DS fitted pilots have turned 1-3/10 plexes into THIER PRIVATE Playground.
No they haven't. What you're suggesting is that they should do that, though, because guess who's going to get all those keys — the newbies or the guys with the tools and experience to do things quickly?

The fact that you are there with them proves that it's not their private playground — it just proves that they're better at doing them than you are. If you don't want to compete, there is (semi)non-competitive ways of making ISK. If you're going to engage in an inherently competitive activity, expect to compete and don't expect the other guy to do it on equal terms.


With the time necessary for a player not in a T3 to complete a 3/10 or a 4/10, it means you can pretty much guarantee competitors showing up in more crowded areas like Caldari space.

Having to liberate the key in the first room would reduce the window of opportunity for ninjas, giving newer players a bit more chance against players in T3 who can usually simply blitz the loot at the end.

I've done more then a year of exploration, a lot of it in high-sec, and I ninja every chance i get (usually successfully because I prefer to do exploration paired up with a buddy). But I think adding keys would be a good thing.

Though I would prefer it if they worked for the entire fleet, not just the ship that has it in it's cargo (I can't remember how it worked for static complexes).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Roime
Shiva Furnace
#31 - 2012-05-21 11:07:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The fact that you are there with them proves that it's not their private playground — it just proves that they're better at doing them than you are. If you don't want to compete, there is (semi)non-competitive ways of making ISK. If you're going to engage in an inherently competitive activity, expect to compete and don't expect the other guy to do it on equal terms.


You miss the point. Competition is not the issue, but the unfairness of it for the new guys. T1 cruiser/BC pilots are forced to compete with 30mil SP pilots in 3bil ISK ships, who shouldn't be in the starter systems anymore in the first place.

And under current aggression mechanics, there is very little the new guy can do about it. Unlike in lowsec, where you can violence that annoying Tengu.

Competition is good, but it should emphasize player skill, not skill points.

.

Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2012-05-21 11:11:04 UTC
any sort of instance mechanic (lol captain's quarters) in eve online is inherently bad and you should feel bad for proposing it

this is a competitive game

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#33 - 2012-05-21 11:13:56 UTC
Roime wrote:
Competition is not the issue, but the unfairness of it for the new guys.
And you missed my point: so what? We're not talking about starter systems here — we're talking about free-floating and static complexes that are open to all and sundry and that are subject to competition over a limited resource.

Quote:
Competition is good, but it should emphasize player skill, not skill points.
…and chances are that those who get to the end first have a good combination of both. They're not wasting their time on the unnecessary stuff and are keeping their eyes on the goal. Adding entry keys would not make it any more about player skill than it already is — quite the opposite, since you could now get the goods while being very bad at it, just because you got lucky.
Tel Airuta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-05-21 11:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tel Airuta
Tippia wrote:
Roime wrote:
Competition is not the issue, but the unfairness of it for the new guys.
And you missed my point: so what? We're not talking about starter systems here — we're talking about free-floating and static complexes that are open to all and sundry and that are subject to competition over a limited resource.

Quote:
Competition is good, but it should emphasize player skill, not skill points.
…and chances are that those who get to the end first have a good combination of both. They're not wasting their time on the unnecessary stuff and are keeping their eyes on the goal. Adding entry keys would not make it any more about player skill than it already is — quite the opposite, since you could now get the goods while being very bad at it, just because you got lucky.


I see so what you are saying is, getting 30 million SP is a matter of "skill". Most of these carebears are either alts or missioners who now find themselves in fast t3 and ds fits thanks to the billions of ISK they have in store. Then on top of it, rather than actually risking their ships , they can now farm exploration sites with impunity since they will ALWAYS be faster than the new guys.

And no it doesnt matter what time I try it. 6 AM 12 AM, 5 PM, they are there, either camping the DED sites or blitzing the exploration sites that new players spends time and aggravation trying to find. No real skill was involved.

You know what how about we turn all the plexes be they DED or exploration sites into low sec pvp zones? we will see how much skill is involved then.

and all this crap about not wasting unneccessary time..WTF does that mean? I have been skilling precisely on combat and astrometrics, yet I get screwed over because some carebear realizes its far more lucrative to hoover up high sec plexes then risk his ship in low sec? Bull.

Oh and I like your quote...must be ironic.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#35 - 2012-05-21 11:25:47 UTC
Tippia wrote:
And you missed my point: so what? We're not talking about starter systems here — we're talking about free-floating and static complexes that are open to all and sundry and that are subject to competition over a limited resource.


Those complexes are in starter systems, ie. hisec.

[quote]…and chances are that those who get to the end first have a good combination of both. They're not wasting their time on the unnecessary stuff and are keeping their eyes on the goal. Adding entry keys would not make it any more about player skill than it already is — quite the opposite, since you could now get the goods while being very bad at it, just because you got lucky.
[/quote

I'm not suggesting entry keys, I'm for locking the overpowered ships out from hisec plexes (and removing 4/10s and nerfing hisec drops, but that is another discussion) to level the competition. Anyone could still compete from plexes, but on more level terms.


.

Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
#36 - 2012-05-21 11:35:16 UTC
So what you're saying is that the guy with billions of isk, more skillpoints better ships and more experience shouldn't have any advantage over you ? In fact he shouldn't even be ALLOWED to compete with you.

That is so un-EVE like its not even funny.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-05-21 11:36:12 UTC
Tel Airuta wrote:
I see so what you are saying is, getting 30 million SP is a matter of "skill".
No. I'm saying that they're better at what they're doing than you are: they have the right equipment and the right tactics. SP, as always, is not much of a factor. Nice strawman though.

Quote:
Then on top of it, rather than actually risking their ships , they can now farm exploration sites with impunity since they will ALWAYS be faster than the new guys.
And again: so what? If they're always faster, then that's the cost of doing business: you need to get above a certain threshold in order to make the cut. Adding entry keys does not change this and will, if anything, only make it worse: those faster guys will still be faster and will therefore have an even larger strangle hold over the new guys.

Quote:
…or blitzing the exploration sites that new players spends time and aggravation trying to find. No real skill was involved.
…aside from finding that exploration site much more quickly than the new player and knowing how to get to the end without being bogged down by the irrelevant stuff in-between. Learn what equipment you need. Learn how to do them quickly. Learn to compete. Stop assuming that it's somehow meant for new players or that there is supposed to be any kind of “fairness” to it just because new players can try to access it.

Roime wrote:
Those complexes are in starter systems, ie. hisec.
No. There are no complexes in the starter systems. Highsec is not a starter system. Highsec is just a place where aggression comes at a cost.

Quote:
I'm not suggesting entry keys, I'm for locking the overpowered ships out from hisec plexes (and removing 4/10s and nerfing hisec drops, but that is another discussion) to level the competition. Anyone could still compete from plexes, but on more level terms.
That won't really change anything. Those with the right tools and tactics (i.e. not the newbies) will still get the prize.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#38 - 2012-05-21 11:47:11 UTC
o/ Just to check

EVElopedia lists 1/10 sits as for frigates, 2/10 for desties, 3/10 for cruiser, 4/10 for BC, 5/10 for BS

What ship types are allowed in these and what of those ships are actually on a level with each other? What sites can T3s enter? Can any other ship in the lowest site a T3 can enter compete with the T3? What is the purpose of separating these sites into ship classes?

I don't think people are wrong in saying that there should be competition (HTFU), but I don't think newbies should be cut out like this, either. People joining the game alone already feel cut out from pretty much every interesting activity. There's not much to guide newbies into group exploration if the big shots are doing it solo?

Sounds like the OP is headed to lowsec soon enough anyway \o/
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#39 - 2012-05-21 11:53:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. There are no complexes in the starter systems. Highsec is not a starter system. Highsec is just a place where aggression comes at a cost.


Which makes it just a big, glorified starter system with out-of-proportion rewards. High security exists as a place where new pilots can learn the basic game mechanics before venturing out to where the game EVE Online begins, and continue learning there.

Quote:
That won't really change anything. Those with the right tools and tactics (i.e. not the newbies) will still get the prize.


Yes it will change, getting into an AF, cruiser or BC is much faster than getting into a maxed out officer Tengu. The better pilot would still get the price, but the guy with 5mil SP would have a better chance against the 30mil SP guy than at present.

.

Tel Airuta
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-21 11:53:38 UTC
Ya Huei wrote:
So what you're saying is that the guy with billions of isk, more skillpoints better ships and more experience shouldn't have any advantage over you ? In fact he shouldn't even be ALLOWED to compete with you.

That is so un-EVE like its not even funny.


No whats unfunny is the fact that people in T3 DS fits hide behind concord so they can exploit high sec plexes for millions, cutting out the new players.

I never said he cant compete what I said was clear: If I find a plex before you, I should have the oppurtunity to clear it, since I am actually risking my ship as a newbie while someone in a t3 is not since he can instapop just about anything in 1-3/10s.

The whole idea of high sec plexes is to give new players the oppurtunity to engage in a higher risk higher reward so that if they succeed the amount of rewards would make them more likely to risk ships in PvP, instead you have a system where new players are forced to grind because they have been cut out of the very rewards system with which they could more quickly jump toward a pvp role.

Instead we have high sec carebears who hide behind concord mechanics exploiting these plexs at ZERO risk to themselves, while new players can just stand aside and wait while the new royalty of EVE allows them a few scraps now and again.