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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Targeting empty space
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Kenn
McKae Industries and Research
#1 - 2012-05-17 05:45:46 UTC
Frigates can be a threat to larger ships in large numbers. However larger ships would or should have an ability to target empty space. In fact all ships would have this but it would be more effective with the larger ships like Battleships.

The idea is to allow a player to fire rounds in a given direction by indicating the range like firing artillery. Then train all guns on that location. This can be used as a firing screen against approaching enemy vessels in a fleet battle and since collateral damage occurs by bursts that occur too close to a ship this could have a devastating effect. It would add tactical and strategic elements to fleet battles that didn't exist before.

Imagaine four battle ships are under attack by 20 frigates. The BS Pilots know the frigates will swarm and concentrate fire on one ship at a time. Assuming leaving is not an option then their only chance is to create a line of fire the frigates will have to pass through before getting within range to swarm those ships. 4 Battle ships with 6 large weapons each equal 24 guns making a small patch of space uninhabitable by anything passing through it.

This could also be applied to POS defense systems attempting to put up a screen against attack or by the Dreadnoughts attacking them. A fleet could do this to attempt to secure a gate (cloaked ships would no longer be safe!) . It would add a serious level of realism and excitement to fleet battles.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#2 - 2012-05-17 05:57:18 UTC
Or you could be smart and not fight frigs in battleships

Or suprise WTFPWN them with small guns

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#3 - 2012-05-17 06:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tchulen
The game would have to be altered completely to have LOS and accurate collision detection before your proposal could be implemented. This would require a massive reworking of the code behind the game not to mention (as has been discussed in numerous other threads) a huge increase in server requirements per client connected meaning that the number of ships capable of being in large fights being dramatically reduced. Also, the large infrastructure costs incurred by CCP to beef up the hardware and networking in order to try to compensate for the code changes. Also, completely reworking the targeting system.

On top of that, it's a bit pointless as there is effectively a sphere around the BS which the frigate can use for it's approach. The BS "targets" space and fires it's guns in that direction so the frigate adjusts it's course and approaches from a slightly different angle completely negating the BS weapons still

It's a nice idea if you remove the hardware and practical restraints. Unfortunately, these cannot be removed.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2012-05-17 06:10:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Tchulen wrote:
The game would have to be altered completely to have LOS and accurate collision detection before your proposal could be implemented.

^^ Pretty much this.

Also... wasn't there a recent thread somewhere that declared that frigates were at an extreme disadvantage against big ships?

edit: found it. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1301543#post1301543

How did you Veterans start?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-05-17 11:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
Or you could be smart and not fight frigs in battleships

Or suprise WTFPWN them with small guns



But... but... but.... thats what we do in missions and incursions....

1v1, it is rare that a frig can beat a BS - especially if the BS is fit primarily expecting frigates.

The drones carried by a BS will give the frig huge problems.
Honestly... what frig could beat a Domi in a 1v1?
A scorpion would jam the crap out of that Frig.
A phoon or geddon can still fit enough flights of light drones that the enemy frig is going to be overwhelmed (they can try to pop the light drones, but when you carry 25> of them.... probably isn't going to work)

As already mentioned, you could fit undersize weapons as well, sure you lose your bonus, but you have 6-8 of them, whereas a frig is only going to have 3-5.
And of course there is the tank difference....

The only thing I would change, is the size restriction of the bonuses.
Change the Domi bonus to be 5% to hybrid turret damage per level, not 5% to LARGE hybrid turret damage per level.
Do this will all ships (so cruisers and BCs can fit small guns and still receive bonuses).

Then under-gunned BS's would be a bit more viable.
Kenn
McKae Industries and Research
#6 - 2012-05-17 16:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenn
This was not meant to be an end all solution against frigates just another element both sides have to deal with. As posted frigates have a number of solutions around it. It would still add an interesting element to the game.

As for the total remake of the game I would dispute that and perhaps a Dev could confrim or deny that it would be such a problem. Personally I can see a number of ways to do it with out major programming or game alteration so I reject that argument. The game already has collision detection as it utilizes frigate size versus round size to determine damage. A similar approach can be applied here. Remember the doomsday weapon of the Titans annihilating an area of space did the same thing so the program mechanics are in fact already built into the game.

I don't think this would upset game balance and a few posts were correct in that the Battleships could just equip appropriate turrets to annihilate the frigates. But take this scenario...

Players A are on a mission perhaps with another group where 4 battleships and big guns are needed. So they equip appropriately with let's say 425 mm Prototype Hybrids. They are the snipers. They do their job but either another group shows up or things go wrong for the rest of the team and the frigates on the opposing side attack the Battleships. The battleship pilots cannot change weapons though they can launch drones. But firing at a point in space between the frigates and the Battleships would create a defensive layer the enemy has to pass through. It would only last a few seconds as the frigates will cross the distance quickly but not before they are softened up for drone attacks.

As a pilot on the enemy side watching flak pass you would be a trip first of all and surviving that engagement would be something to talk about. Catch it on video and it's a You Tube hit. Of course for Battleship pilots or any large ship pilot it is a tactic of defense.

How effective is it? With one ship not so effective but two or more it is quite effective. How important is it to the game on a scale of 1 to 10? it's a 4 where 10 is dire and 1 is who cares. Certainly not a priority or a necessity just a fun factor item.

We don't know what CCP has up its sleeves with reguards to programming capability so to make that judgment of "Hardware and practical restraints cannot be removed" is simply uninformed. Off the top of my head however a target drone could be created sent to the location and the ships targeting it automatically bracket the area. Not all that difficult. But the game also has a tactical overlay showing ranges. I am pretty sure they could so something with that for this feature or use the Titan method what ever that was (probably involved a player acting as a beacon).

The weapon damages are the same for 425mm Hybrids nothing changes and the velocity rules and signature rules still apply but if a ship enters an area targeted in this manner it receives the damage potential of multiple ships.

Again not a critical idea just a "Hey wouldn't this be a cool feature?" Let's give it some love. Blink
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2012-05-19 02:11:59 UTC
Horrifically complex programming, no.

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If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#8 - 2012-05-19 03:28:53 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
Or you could be smart and not fight frigs in battleships

Or suprise WTFPWN them with small guns



But... but... but.... thats what we do in missions and incursions....

1v1, it is rare that a frig can beat a BS - especially if the BS is fit primarily expecting frigates.

The drones carried by a BS will give the frig huge problems.
Honestly... what frig could beat a Domi in a 1v1?
A scorpion would jam the crap out of that Frig.
A phoon or geddon can still fit enough flights of light drones that the enemy frig is going to be overwhelmed (they can try to pop the light drones, but when you carry 25> of them.... probably isn't going to work)

As already mentioned, you could fit undersize weapons as well, sure you lose your bonus, but you have 6-8 of them, whereas a frig is only going to have 3-5.
And of course there is the tank difference....

The only thing I would change, is the size restriction of the bonuses.
Change the Domi bonus to be 5% to hybrid turret damage per level, not 5% to LARGE hybrid turret damage per level.
Do this will all ships (so cruisers and BCs can fit small guns and still receive bonuses).

Then under-gunned BS's would be a bit more viable.

Give me 5% bonuses to all guns, and I will find a way to fit a citadel launcher or two on my drake.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Razgriz Shaishi
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-20 23:10:51 UTC
Kenn wrote:
This was not meant to be an end all solution against frigates just another element both sides have to deal with. As posted frigates have a number of solutions around it. It would still add an interesting element to the game.

As for the total remake of the game I would dispute that and perhaps a Dev could confrim or deny that it would be such a problem. Personally I can see a number of ways to do it with out major programming or game alteration so I reject that argument. The game already has collision detection as it utilizes frigate size versus round size to determine damage. A similar approach can be applied here. Remember the doomsday weapon of the Titans annihilating an area of space did the same thing so the program mechanics are in fact already built into the game.

Not much to say here except that almost all of your reasoning as to how they would code this in is flawed.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-05-21 00:51:06 UTC
Razgriz Shaishi wrote:
Kenn wrote:
This was not meant to be an end all solution against frigates just another element both sides have to deal with. As posted frigates have a number of solutions around it. It would still add an interesting element to the game.

As for the total remake of the game I would dispute that and perhaps a Dev could confrim or deny that it would be such a problem. Personally I can see a number of ways to do it with out major programming or game alteration so I reject that argument. The game already has collision detection as it utilizes frigate size versus round size to determine damage. A similar approach can be applied here. Remember the doomsday weapon of the Titans annihilating an area of space did the same thing so the program mechanics are in fact already built into the game.

Not much to say here except that almost all of your reasoning as to how they would code this in is flawed.

its always funny to listen to epople without a programming background try and reason what is and sint an easy code to program.

@OP: this would require not only a rework of 99% of the code involved with flying ships in general, but would require brand enw beefier servers, smaller fleetfights, years of developer time and tons of funding, and then would still only be practical if your amking a enw game anyways.
Drakarin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-05-21 15:13:06 UTC
People do not want twitch skills, manual aim or anything like that, primarily because they don't want more expensive, powerful ships to actually be more powerful.

Yup, a battleship is slower, heavier, and the guns do not turn or track as fast. I grant you this completely. This means most of the time they will miss. But guess what? Even today, even decades ago, people who built ships for war new that these large ships had a significant disadvantage against small targets so what did they do? They designed the ship to play host to many smaller point defense turrets across the ship that actually could defense the battleship against smaller ships.

No single small frigate should be an actual threat to a large battleship. It doesn't make sense that the mechanical engineers of EvE are that dumb to forget to plug in this gaping security hole.
Kenn
McKae Industries and Research
#12 - 2012-05-23 17:11:21 UTC
LOL. I see a lot of people feel it won't work. Okay.

I disagree with the coding limits as CCP recently showed new technologies available to them that would lend itself to this sort of thing. If the Dev's see the post only they can truly make that judgement. So let's leave the code limits out of this and let the Dev's decide on that.

As for enhancing game experience what do you think? It was mentioned that it would make the BS too powerful though it is not limited to the BS. It is a valid argument and game balancing would have to be considered. Fun factor? I think both sides of the conflict would love it. There will be some skirmishes that will end in slaughter one way or the other while others will be knock down drag out fights. The players will have something to talk about though.

This is not a "HEY WE DESPARATELY NEED THIS!!!!" sort of idea so if it immediately doesn't appeal to you I get it.