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Incursion fixes/feedback thread

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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#701 - 2012-05-20 19:20:23 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Looks like the CCP DEV the OP talked about took a dump on Incursions I guess thats what you get when you hand off a fix on a retireing DEV. I hope before he goes they hand off fixing Tech moons to him too

Seriously dude?

You are doing a great job of turning CCP against incursion runners. By the time you've finished they're going to be so pissed off at you petitioning them, messaging them and constantly reviving all these threads that they're going to nerf incursions all over again just to **** you off.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Serge Bastana
GWA Corp
#702 - 2012-05-20 19:42:12 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Halboreth wrote:
Ok, it was about time that something has to be done about the overpowered payout of vanguard sites. Especially something about those 'blitz'-fleets.

But really guys, what you did with escalation wasn't tweaking or nerving vanguards a bit, it was a complete hammer-break-down. I know there was a whole river of tears from null-sec players, but are you really that easy to influence from the ones crying out loudest?
(snip)

(snip)

That's just a the tip of the iceberg i can keep going but i can say this much many of the incursion runners have given up on them or left the game because of 0.0 river of tears. Stay out there 0.0 care bear land and leave empire alone you got plenty of nullbears to play with


Looks like the same old story with history repeating itself by the CCP DEV's: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/05/16/jesters-trek-demon-suit/

" I’ve heard from more incursion runners that are just unsubbing rather than submit to that indignity. "


So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

WoW holds your hand until end game, and gives you a cookie whether you win or lose. EVE not only takes your cookie, but laughs at you for bringing one in the first place...

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#703 - 2012-05-20 19:59:56 UTC
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#704 - 2012-05-20 20:13:49 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.


Look at it again its going down last week Sunday peaked at 47k this week 43km ( hint put your mouse over the graph for specific dates to appear )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#705 - 2012-05-20 20:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.


Look at it again its going down last week Sunday peaked at 47k this week 43km ( hint put your mouse over the graph for specific dates to appear )

A difference of ~4k with two sample points is not a significant variation.

To highlight that fact, the Friday night one month ago (the highest point all week, on the 18/03/2012) the login count was 46k. That's a 3k deviation between now and a Friday night one month ago. Or screw it, let's look at a peak in January. The 23rd of January 42k, the 28th? 43k.

Etc.

And Darth fails hard at analysing data accurately again. This is starting to get embarrassing.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#706 - 2012-05-20 21:22:13 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.


Look at it again its going down last week Sunday peaked at 47k this week 43km ( hint put your mouse over the graph for specific dates to appear )

A difference of ~4k with two sample points is not a significant variation.

To highlight that fact, the Friday night one month ago (the highest point all week, on the 18/03/2012) the login count was 46k. That's a 3k deviation between now and a Friday night one month ago. Or screw it, let's look at a peak in January. The 23rd of January 42k, the 28th? 43k.

Etc.

And Darth fails hard at analysing data accurately again. This is starting to get embarrassing.



Yeah, you just keep believing the attacks on high sec have no impact on sub rates.
And when the numbers are down all summer, you will say "Diablo III and it is summertime".

But when the numbers are down in October, that is when things will get interesting. CCP may finally have to listen to some sane people, rather than the null sec zealot faction, which includes their own ex-goon (or is he still goon) lead designer.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#707 - 2012-05-20 21:28:49 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.

It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.


Look at it again its going down last week Sunday peaked at 47k this week 43km ( hint put your mouse over the graph for specific dates to appear )

A difference of ~4k with two sample points is not a significant variation.

To highlight that fact, the Friday night one month ago (the highest point all week, on the 18/03/2012) the login count was 46k. That's a 3k deviation between now and a Friday night one month ago. Or screw it, let's look at a peak in January. The 23rd of January 42k, the 28th? 43k.

Etc.

And Darth fails hard at analysing data accurately again. This is starting to get embarrassing.



Yeah, you just keep believing the attacks on high sec have no impact on sub rates.
And when the numbers are down all summer, you will say "Diablo III and it is summertime".

But when the numbers are down in October, that is when things will get interesting. CCP may finally have to listen to some sane people, rather than the null sec zealot faction, which includes their own ex-goon (or is he still goon) lead designer.

An argument based in unfounded prediction is worth nothing.

The data provided does not support your hypothesis, so what do you do? "TROLOLOL WHEN THE DATA DOES SUPPORT MY PREDICTION IN THE FUTURE.".

This is not a logical argument, it is a sign of desperation. There is no evidence of subscription rates dropping, yet you claim they will drop. There is evidence that subscription rates are stable, even growing slightly. You dismiss it, and continue with your analysis based on fictional data that will support everything you say come October.

Sometimes I wish children had the scientific method stuffed down their throats as they were growing up.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#708 - 2012-05-20 21:38:18 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:


Yeah, you just keep believing the attacks on high sec have no impact on sub rates.
And when the numbers are down all summer, you will say "Diablo III and it is summertime".

But when the numbers are down in October, that is when things will get interesting. CCP may finally have to listen to some sane people, rather than the null sec zealot faction, which includes their own ex-goon (or is he still goon) lead designer.

An argument based in unfounded prediction is worth nothing.

The data provided does not support your hypothesis, so what do you do? "TROLOLOL WHEN THE DATA DOES SUPPORT MY PREDICTION IN THE FUTURE.".

This is not a logical argument, it is a sign of desperation. There is no evidence of subscription rates dropping, yet you claim they will drop. There is evidence that subscription rates are stable, even growing slightly. You dismiss it, and continue with your analysis based on fictional data that will support everything you say come October.

Sometimes I wish children had the scientific method stuffed down their throats as they were growing up.


Look, you can lie all you want. You can say up is down, black is white.
You can say whatever Orwellian thing comes into your null sec propagandist lizard brain.

But I know numerous people who are letting subs lapse over Incursions, datacores, L4 mission nerfs, or some combination.
Those subs don't drop all at once. They take time to lapse out, but they are starting.

Oh, and BTW, this is one of the accounts lapsing. Will take a few more weeks before the 30 day plex is done.
Oh, and another thing: I stopped running Incursions weeks BEFORE the nerf, because I could not find the time to block off the contiguous hours required to commit. But I still hate what the soundwave and his null sec allies have done to a large population of the game.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#709 - 2012-05-20 21:44:10 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:


Yeah, you just keep believing the attacks on high sec have no impact on sub rates.
And when the numbers are down all summer, you will say "Diablo III and it is summertime".

But when the numbers are down in October, that is when things will get interesting. CCP may finally have to listen to some sane people, rather than the null sec zealot faction, which includes their own ex-goon (or is he still goon) lead designer.

An argument based in unfounded prediction is worth nothing.

The data provided does not support your hypothesis, so what do you do? "TROLOLOL WHEN THE DATA DOES SUPPORT MY PREDICTION IN THE FUTURE.".

This is not a logical argument, it is a sign of desperation. There is no evidence of subscription rates dropping, yet you claim they will drop. There is evidence that subscription rates are stable, even growing slightly. You dismiss it, and continue with your analysis based on fictional data that will support everything you say come October.

Sometimes I wish children had the scientific method stuffed down their throats as they were growing up.


Look, you can lie all you want. You can say up is down, black is white.
You can say whatever Orwellian thing comes into your null sec propagandist lizard brain.

But I know numerous people who are letting subs lapse over Incursions, datacores, L4 mission nerfs, or some combination.
Those subs don't drop all at once. They take time to lapse out, but they are starting.

Oh, and BTW, this is one of the accounts lapsing. Will take a few more weeks before the 30 day plex is done.
Oh, and another thing: I stopped running Incursions weeks BEFORE the nerf, because I could not find the time to block off the contiguous hours required to commit. But I still hate what the soundwave and his null sec allies have done to a large population of the game.

Oh hush child, I know plenty of people that are coming back to Eve because of the refocus on war, combat and the high sec isk fountain rebalancing. See, I can use purely anecdotal evidence too.

The fact is I showed data that suggests a steady growth in subscription rates. You have no data, but provide promises of data to come and anecdotal "evidence" mingled with personal sob stories and goon conspiracy theories.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Hanuman Li Tosh
Nullbear Protection Act of 2019
#710 - 2012-05-21 00:08:46 UTC
Quote:
The fact is I showed data that suggests a steady growth in subscription rates.


The fact is that relatively the same amount of people log onto the server now as in 2010.

No amount of spin can change that.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#711 - 2012-05-21 02:38:35 UTC
Hanuman Li Tosh wrote:
Quote:
The fact is I showed data that suggests a steady growth in subscription rates.


The fact is that relatively the same amount of people log onto the server now as in 2010.

No amount of spin can change that.


The fact is that more people have active subscriptions now than in 2010.

No amount of spin can change that either. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#712 - 2012-05-21 10:19:33 UTC
Hanuman Li Tosh wrote:
Quote:
The fact is I showed data that suggests a steady growth in subscription rates.


The fact is that relatively the same amount of people log onto the server now as in 2010.

No amount of spin can change that.

Yeah sorry, as the above poster pointed out I wasn't entirely clear on that. Whilst the peak login rates have only risen slightly, the number of active subscriptions has risen steadily.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#713 - 2012-05-21 17:33:01 UTC
So i see Darth has gotten his head up his ass now. well folks maybe we should do a recap

1> 0.0 tears over Incursions and how we were able to make iskies within Empire space.
2> Legion blitz fleet ran VGs within minutes. This is not COOL!
3> Many Felt the payouts compared to risk was not balance.

So CCP put a solution together on this
1> Lets Make the Vanguards tougher. Added a few more ships and must destroy everything except in OTAs you do not need to Eysturs
2> Decrease VG payouts....many GOONs & pets rejoiced.
3> Assaults got some love to. increased Payout and more ships to kill making it longer.
4> HQs got some love to. Increased Payout and longer to do.

Repercusion of Solutions implemented
1> New life in the Incursions.
2> Shield fleets DIEing
3> Legion Blitz no longer blitzing but are considered an ACE tech3 ship
4> Inucursion community decreases in numbers after a week and slowly more over the following 3 weeks.
5> Armor fleets take it easy running the VGs and Assaults. Developed new tactics eventually shared with others.
6> shield fleets still losing ships after #5 is shared with them.
7> Armor Fleet group Born Ara Mob refines tactics getting OTAs down to 8 minutes and VG sites 8 minutes average.
8> Discovered you cannot run OTAs ith any Battlecruiser even with faction mods chance of it popping is too great.

Now there is a rumor that there is a shield group able to run OTAs in 6 minutes and been unable to substantiate this false claim. if you can please step forward and let me know how to contact you i like to know more.

As for the number of players in the incursion community and i mean the numbers are small right now. Someone did point out the obvious.
1>Spring break. need to party
2> Final Exams
3> Avenger Movie. How many seen it more then 4 times now?
4> new exciting movies
5> Diablo III and a few other new gmaes hitting the market
6> the most important one.....SUMMER TIME!!! to go and see the girls in their skimpy outfits and look like drooling morons.lol
The number of people logging in at this time of the year is typical drops off picks up in fall but WOAH!!!! MechWarrior Online comes out then too. Should be exciting no matter what happens.

Good luck Folks and have fun
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#714 - 2012-05-22 07:18:36 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:


So CCP put a solution together on this
3> Assaults got some love to. increased Payout and more ships to kill making it longer.
4> HQs got some love to. Increased Payout and longer to do.

Neither payout more

Repercusion of Solutions implemented
1> New life in the Incursions.



Incursions in HI SEC are now dieing untouched.
NULL/LO Sec communities are dead.
HI sec communities are on life support about to die...
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#715 - 2012-05-22 07:31:30 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Incursions in HI SEC are now dieing untouched.
NULL/LO Sec communities are dead.
HI sec communities are on life support about to die...

Please, tell me more about how you aren't repeating yourself.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#716 - 2012-05-22 08:25:52 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Serge Bastana wrote:
So they only played the game while Incursions were paying as much as they did? Interesting lack of imagination and adaptability there, will be such a shame to lose those players.
It's funny, how all these incursion runners are cancelling their subscriptions and yet the number of online players has remained stable.
Look at it again its going down last week Sunday peaked at 47k this week 43km ( hint put your mouse over the graph for specific dates to appear )
A difference of ~4k with two sample points is not a significant variation. To highlight that fact, the Friday night one month ago (the highest point all week, on the 18/03/2012) the login count was 46k. That's a 3k deviation between now and a Friday night one month ago. Or screw it, let's look at a peak in January. The 23rd of January 42k, the 28th? 43k. Etc. And Darth fails hard at analysing data accurately again. This is starting to get embarrassing.


You brought up a graph which has a real negitive slope since the release of Escalation N=28 my comparision of the weekly maximum's which land on Sunday'as so N=4 to simply show how much the standard deviation is increasing for the worse, for a better Confidence Interval we'll want to see N=6 to 8 in the time for N=6 to 8 though it appears that the Incursion communities may well be near dead sadly. Your analysis is falling flat on its face once again Simi... wanna to try to calculate again how many characters live in WH's again while you are at it?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#717 - 2012-05-22 08:58:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
DarthNefarius wrote:
You brought up a graph which has a real negitive slope since the release of Escalation N=28 my comparision of the weekly maximum's which land on Sunday'as so N=4 to simply show how much the standard deviation is increasing for the worse, for a better Confidence Interval we'll want to see N=6 to 8 in the time for N=6 to 8 though it appears that the Incursion communities may well be near dead sadly. Your analysis is falling flat on its face once again Simi... wanna to try to calculate again how many characters live in WH's again while you are at it?

:notsureifserious:

Ok, sweeping aside the fact that you've obviously just discovered the concept of a confidence interval on google (and used it extremely inappropriately, I might add. Reading up on standard deviation may have been more use to you.), the sample you have so blithely chosen to assign the Nth term to is the weekly peak login. You have that data in front of you, and as I said two samples is not enough to generate any kind of hypothesis as to increases or decreases in player activity or subscriptions.

So, because I forced you to analyse three months of data, or even a months, the data no longer supports your claims. So what do you do? You claim that "for a better confidence interval we'll want to see N=6 to 7 in the time for N=6 to 8".

And again, I'm going to kindly sweep aside the fact that that is one of the dumbest statements I have read all week, and give you the benefit of the doubt. I presume what you meant to say was what you'd like to see is a regular, repeated drop of 6 to 8 thousand players from the previous "high" of 46k?

Of course, this magical data supporting your claim doesn't exist yet, so we just have to take it on faith that all the evidence to the contrary so far is... what exactly? How do you explain lower average login rates in January or December than we have currently, Darth?

Expecting us to dismiss credible evidence and take your claims on faith is not using the evidence to support your claim Darth, that is making stuff up to support your claim.

To reiterate, all we see on the two points you chose is a standard deviation of 3k. Looking back over the weekly peaks for the last year this is nothing out of the ordinary. So there is no negative correlation between escalation's release and login rates, there is no reported drop in subscriptions by CCP and there is no evidence to substantiate any of your claims to the contrary.

Ironically if you'd bothered to learn a little about what interval estimation was you'd have been able to use it to show that 3k is well within the normal limits of deviation for Eve Online's peak login*.

/rant over

*EDIT: Let alone when Diablo 3 apparently came out this weekend. Also, wtf am I doing playing Eve? Brb, popping out to buy Diablo 3.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Devious Relation
Obsessive Compulsive Disasters
#718 - 2012-05-22 09:35:18 UTC
Lets be honest, the ONLY reason CCP nerfed incursions was because they felt it was hurting thier buisness model, THAT is all.

The sooner they realise they cant alter 1 aspect of the game without balancing others the better. personaly its just a matter of time till another mmo comes out and im off monocolol and all :D
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#719 - 2012-05-22 09:40:17 UTC
Devious Relation wrote:
Lets be honest, the ONLY reason CCP nerfed incursions was because they felt it was hurting thier buisness model, THAT is all.

The sooner they realise they cant alter 1 aspect of the game without balancing others the better. personaly its just a matter of time till another mmo comes out and im off monocolol and all :D

Well, obviously What? That's the only reason CCP, or any other company for that matter, are motivated to make any changes at all.

If a change isn't good or bad for business, then it can't have a very big impact on the game so why waste developer time on it?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Devious Relation
Obsessive Compulsive Disasters
#720 - 2012-05-22 10:58:47 UTC
Devious Relation wrote:
The sooner they realise they cant alter 1 aspect of the game without balancing others the better.



What i was getting at was, ok sure nerf incursions to curb inflation, but by nerfing 1 aspect without balancing other ways of making ISK they loose players, do it enough times eve will be down to 1 die hard fan with 10 alts.

Other things that need looking at, Tech moons - the ability to make billions without even being logged into the game. Now that is mad. But hey eve is a game you PAY not to play isnt it, with long skill waiting times, and no interest in changing this.

Wormholes - People make as much money if not more if managed correctly than high sec incursions USED to make. This again needs balancing with other aspects. Incursions offer'd far more to eve than wormholes as they made entire communitys accessable to everyone.

My prediction, and please remember i said this. It is only a matter of time before CCP adopt the F2P buisness modle for eve online. The things to back this up are recently failed NeX store, alongside the fact DUST on PS3 will be free to play. Initialy the swap over will create a massive loss in playerbase, shortly followed by the servers being shut down.

dont get me wrong, as a game I love eve, and its sad to see it slowly bleeding to deathSad