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How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!
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Pres Crendraven
#21 - 2012-05-20 02:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pres Crendraven
I'm not sure you can turn carebears into PVP'er but I'm pretty sure you can turn PVP'er into carebears.

Crows used to **** prolifically on my van back in the nineties, so I posted an owl when ever I parked in the parking lot. In a couple of days they became very irreverent towards it as if to prove that it wasn't scary.
One day I parked and posted the owl and hid in the van with the rear door ajar.
As they began to rage and approach, I shot one with a high powered pellet rifle.
The screaming became intense so I shot another. About half flew away. The rest continued to rage about their two dead comrades so I shot another. More flew away. Now out of an initial flock of perhaps 200, there were only about six or eight left to raise ruckus. I shot another, they all went away.
For the next few years that I used that parking lot, there was no crow **** on my van.
They didn't know how the owl was doing it but they knew that the owl's presence meant dead crow.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-05-20 03:11:57 UTC
Broken, old out dated, we didn't know how to create meaningful awesome content that is just the age old adaptation of other MMO's

Camping

Yup...broken and boring as ****.

1. Jump through a gate, align with a fast frigate...BLAM! by a high sensor resolution battleship supported by 3 other ships. Total time - 3 seconds

2. Set out, turn off safe route though lowsec as its only 8 jumps with 3 through lulz, tell yourself WTZ all the way as your in a fast align frig...BLAM! Land in a smartbomb battleship on the last incoming jump gate. Total time - 45 minutes

3. Spend three hours looking for an area to do PI using Dotlan, Last 24 hour ships destroyed, Last 24 hour pod destroyed,, load up the industrial and not even 3 jumps in...BLAM! Total time - 5 hours

End result...******* waste of time everytime. Sensor resolution and choke points to create meaningful content...only to lose in seconds short of the week and months spent training for your ships because EVE is not in fact space...its just perch points on select areas where no matter what direction you take and scout it all you want...there is always a guy down the hall with a shotgun waiting to shoot you in the face with it since CCP's brilliant niche game from 2003 is about as dated as EQ1. Try as you might, every trick short of the MWD+Cloak fails...so in fact the game fails since its so simple to up sensor resolution and someone always wins against you everytime. Why try entering the rest of the game, sure you can replace cheap ass ships...but you cannot replace the waste of time spent getting the isk to buy those ships and its just a waste of time to try enter space nobody wants you to enter since they want you their by demanding CCP move level 4s but infact they don't want you there since all they want are targets but it couldn't be those guys fault nobody goes there since all they do is shoot people (Predator vs Prey - wipe out the prey in a given area you will kill yourself since you can't force a prey into your hunting grounds)
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2012-05-20 04:57:30 UTC
Good Hedbergite wrote:
I'm a new player (9M SP) returning after a two year hiatus. It seems the carebear vs PvPer mentalities haven't changed one bit, so I've come up with an idea that could encourage new players and carebears to actually WANT to get more involved with PvP and it's simple - hands on training!

The biggest part of the problem is that most noobs and carebears don't know how to fight and learning is a huge time and ISK investment they don't feel like making.

This time around, I'm much more interested in PvPing (I was a carebear last time) - so I don't mind spending the time and ISK - but here's the typical scenario for getting some practice at PvP:

Build a ship - 15-30 minutes
Fly to an area and hunt for a semi-fair fight - 15-30+ minutes
Fight and die - approx 3-5 minutes

So roughly an hour+ investment for 3-minutes of actual "fight training" - which is fine if you WANT to be a PvPer. If you're a carebear, it's a pain in the butt, a timesink, and all risk with no reward.

So? Where am I going with this - some type of training/arena area. This would build CONFIDENCE in new players and carebears and after a few arena-style fights (ie. 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, or 5v5) - they would get tired of "practice" fights and be excited to get out there and actually participate in the real-deal.

There would be NO REWARDS - by doing so it would eliminate the possibility that people just login and fight in arena style situations. It certainly wouldn't pull existing PvPer's in, as they're already trained and can fight for REAL and make some great ISK by doing so... In fact, it would probably be a good idea to limit the number of fights to 1-2 per day so as to prevent the system from 'stealing' already existing PvPers away from real battle.

I could envision the ability to zone into a battleground type situation and purchase a standard pre-fit type of ship. If you want to learn electronic warfare, you could grab a Blackbird (or equivalent) with standard ECM gear equipped and go learn how to USE it against other players. You would also be able to learn to fly in a fleet in the 5v5 variations and learn the value of having a couple of frigs, an ECM boat, and a few BC/BS's.

This 1. gets rid of the time spent building ships and hunting for a fight 2. builds the desire and confidence of noobs and carebears to defend themselves and actually get more involved in the PvP world instead of crying about it and 3. would allow players to learn new types of ships and the 'stock' fittings associated with that playstyle before they dive into combat and get their ass handed to them.

Again, in no way would I want to see this system distract from the 'real-life' PvP that occurs - but it would be a great option for new players and carebears to learn and build confidence on HOW to participate in both solo and gang warfare. After a handful of skirmishes in a new type of boat, most players would be WANTING to get out there in 'real-life- and try it out in a genuine battle.

I'm interested in hearing thoughts on both how this idea could be better and implemented without impacting the natural flow of the 'real-world' in EvE - and also, feel free to punch holes in the idea as I'm sure there are reprecussions I'm not even thinking about.

Thanks for reading.


Its called the test server, it does everything you want described here and even cuts the time from build to pvp to mere seconds.

You should look into it

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-20 07:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: EvEa Deva
Dear OP in the 2 years you were gone this subject has been beaten to death

Turns out this is a sandbox game and forcing a playstyle on people don't work.

The End
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#25 - 2012-05-20 07:25:10 UTC
EvEa Deva wrote:
Dead OP in the 2 years you were gone this subject has been beaten to death

Turns out this is a sandbox game and forcing a playstyle on people don't work.

The End


But you can bet that CCP Goonwave will keep trying.
Graic Gabtar
The Lemon Party
#26 - 2012-05-20 07:53:04 UTC
Good Hedbergite wrote:
How to get carebears to WANT to PvP!


Work the shaft OBVIOUSLY!
Vyl Vit
#27 - 2012-05-20 08:00:37 UTC
Why the hell would you want Carebears to PvP? If PvP is so damned popular, it would seem there's enough of you out there to PvP your little hearts out. This is way past ridiculous. Maybe what is needed is for some people to get off the junk food and get on the BRAIN food.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-05-20 08:32:48 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit.

I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be.

What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.)
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-20 08:41:22 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit.

I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be.

What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.)

It would be consensual political PVP Blink
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#30 - 2012-05-20 08:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Romar Agent wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
If people want to be carebears, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - no need to try turning into something different - actually eve needs people mining all the trit.

I would agree with this statement, if not for the fact that they're having a whole lot of success pressuring CCP to make massive concessions, and in turn changing the game into something it probably shouldn't be.

What does stop you, or what does stop any PVPer to try to get the same political clout with CCP? (If that clout even exists, which I doubt.)

We try, but there's simply more of them. They start playing a new game, do so just long enough to ruin it, and then move on without any second thoughts or regrets. We are left to pick up the pieces and rebuild.

Do you think the people who whined about the privateers, for example, still play? I still have hundreds of war targets saved on one of my contact lists from as far back as 2008/2009, and believe me, I only see the bear ones sign on every blue moon. The pvper ones on the other hand...

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-05-20 09:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Romar Agent
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
We try, but there's simply more of them. They start playing a new game, do so just long enough to ruin it, and then move on without any second thoughts or regrets. We are left to pick up the pieces and rebuild.

Do you think the people who whined about the privateers, for example, still play? I still have hundreds of war targets saved on one of my contact lists from as far back as 2008/2009, and believe me, I only see the bear ones sign on every blue moon. The pvper ones on the other hand...
Then redefine the threat and act accordingly. The problem is not PVEers and what they want - it's that there are more PVEers than PVPers so the former add more weight to their wants.

Now I can sympathise with the idea of turning a PVEer into a PVPers because for every one you adjust the scales by two, but honestly, most people will not readily change the way they want to play the game.

So perhaps better invest those ressources into getting more PVPers into EVE?

Sure, some may be lost by the possibly high rewards for PVE. But as we already know we probably cannot change that, because there are more PVEers equaling more political weight.

So bring in even more PVPers.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-05-20 09:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Romar Agent
... one day, I'll petition for removal of those quote-buttons ... *mumble mumble*
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#33 - 2012-05-20 09:24:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
Nobody need actual non-stop PvP in EVE in form of arenas with free ships because it doesn't have potential to force you into carebear activities. Arenas may turn EVE into World of Tanks: million(s) of people killing each other non-stop for free without any preparations. No craft, no scams, no exploration, no mining, no ratting, no corp taxes - just shooting. Nobody want boring game like that - except for 25 millions of WoT players.
knulla
Doomheim
#34 - 2012-05-20 09:58:51 UTC  |  Edited by: knulla
cut highsec in half, turn that into new lowsec, nerf highsec based income so much only new and broke players would live there, or use as income stream unless trading/hauling, bufff income in lowsec and 0.0/wh, make gate guns in lowsec stronger and around lowsec stations, write guides about d-scan and using map stats and other stuff on the eve login screen.

Remove Local Chat or make it as wormholes.

click "apply patch".

 [u]Malice Redeemer[/u] - "Post if you are unsubing over the new inventory"  Posted: 2012.05.23 01:39

    lol
Otebski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-05-20 10:15:12 UTC
From my experience locking up and opening fire makes everyone want to pvp.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-05-20 10:18:16 UTC
knulla wrote:
cut highsec in half, turn that into new lowsec, nerf highsec based income so much only new and broke players would live there, or use as income stream unless trading/hauling, bufff income in lowsec and 0.0/wh, make gate guns in lowsec stronger and around lowsec stations, write guides about d-scan and using map stats and other stuff on the eve login screen.

Remove Local Chat or make it as wormholes.

click "apply patch".
And that would make players who do PVE want to PVP, how? Instead of leaving the game?

It would make PVE harder and PVP easier, yes, but that still doesn't break the wall around those who want to PVE for PVE sake, not because PVP is too hard (I can not know, but I suspect the larger part of PVEers).

Making the PVE part of EVE more uncomfortable will most likely only make more PVP players than PVE join the game, okay. It will most likely also make more PVE players than PVP players leave the game, hmm.

Ultimately it could lead to more PVP players than PVE players in the game. But would it could also lead to less players in EVE overall? EVE is known as a PVP heavy game, the PVE to PVP ratio we have today is based on that. But the (somewhat small) playerbase is based on that as well.

Depends on what you want. A larger playerbase with PVP and PVE or a smaller playerbase with mostly PVP and next to no PVE.
knulla
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-05-20 10:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: knulla
Romar Agent wrote:
knulla wrote:
cut highsec in half, turn that into new lowsec, nerf highsec based income so much only new and broke players would live there, or use as income stream unless trading/hauling, bufff income in lowsec and 0.0/wh, make gate guns in lowsec stronger and around lowsec stations, write guides about d-scan and using map stats and other stuff on the eve login screen.

Remove Local Chat or make it as wormholes.

click "apply patch".
And that would make players who do PVE want to PVP, how? Instead of leaving the game?



I know this might be too complicated for you, but that would also make it easier for those of us doing industry to do so outside highsec and in general improve our standard of living not to mention experience of the game.

You need to take a minute and think things through before you hit reply.

PS: You will
Quote:
ALWAYS
need industry in order to build anything.

edit:
Quote:
THINK!

 [u]Malice Redeemer[/u] - "Post if you are unsubing over the new inventory"  Posted: 2012.05.23 01:39

    lol
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#38 - 2012-05-20 10:34:47 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
knulla wrote:
cut highsec in half, turn that into new lowsec, nerf highsec based income so much only new and broke players would live there, or use as income stream unless trading/hauling, bufff income in lowsec and 0.0/wh, make gate guns in lowsec stronger and around lowsec stations, write guides about d-scan and using map stats and other stuff on the eve login screen.

Remove Local Chat or make it as wormholes.

click "apply patch".
And that would make players who do PVE want to PVP, how? Instead of leaving the game?

It would make PVE harder and PVP easier, yes, but that still doesn't break the wall around those who want to PVE for PVE sake, not because PVP is too hard (I can not know, but I suspect the larger part of PVEers).

Making the PVE part of EVE more uncomfortable will most likely only make more PVP players than PVE join the game, okay. It will most likely also make more PVE players than PVP players leave the game, hmm.

Ultimately it could lead to more PVP players than PVE players in the game. But would it could also lead to less players in EVE overall? EVE is known as a PVP heavy game, the PVE to PVP ratio we have today is based on that. But the (somewhat small) playerbase is based on that as well.

Depends on what you want. A larger playerbase with PVP and PVE or a smaller playerbase with mostly PVP and next to no PVE.

I think one important point you are missing is that us PvP types do both PvP and PvE. Some of us even do quite a large amount of PvE.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Forger Lanis
The Augen Nation.
#39 - 2012-05-20 10:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Forger Lanis
I think you are missing the point. OP knows that not everybody will leave the carebear ways. What he/she wants is a training ground where aspiring pvpers can can build confidence before heading out to low/null without being ruined and getting stomped every time.

It would be easy conceptually but maybe not technically. Set aside a system or two that aren't used anyway. Let the system sell cheap generic ships that can only be used in those and make sure that kill mails are disabled.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-20 10:55:39 UTC
knulla wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
knulla wrote:
cut highsec in half, turn that into new lowsec, nerf highsec based income so much only new and broke players would live there, or use as income stream unless trading/hauling, bufff income in lowsec and 0.0/wh, make gate guns in lowsec stronger and around lowsec stations, write guides about d-scan and using map stats and other stuff on the eve login screen.

Remove Local Chat or make it as wormholes.

click "apply patch".
And that would make players who do PVE want to PVP, how? Instead of leaving the game?



I know this might be too complicated for you, but that would also make it easier for those of us doing industry to do so outside highsec and in general improve our standard of living not to mention experience of the game.

You need to take a minute and think things through before you hit reply.

PS: You will
Quote:
ALWAYS
need industry in order to build anything.

edit:
Quote:
THINK!
Yes but in this thread we're not talking about how to open Low and Null to Highsec Industrialists, but about how to convince people to switch from PVE to PVP (or influence the PVP to PVE ratio). That your proposed changes might help to drive more players to Low and Null is possible. I just doubt that the majority of PVEers will be drawn in by that.

Some, yes, anyone who is only repulsed by the risks.

But how do you influence a person whose nature is set on PVE (or set on non-PVP) to change their mind?

Set on PVE regardless of what is needed or not needed ingame, and regardless of the opportunities and non-opportunities ingame.

You don't.

If a game supports a playstyle, and someone plays a game to follow a playstyle, and the game changes to not support that playstyle most people will not continue to play the game for the game. They will choose another game that supports their playstyle.

In my opinion it's not about changing the PVE aspect of EVE. It's about changing the PVP aspect. The question is: Why are not more PVPers eager to play EVE? If they are (true) PVPers the answer isn't "Because there is strong PVE".