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Cargo Container Right Confusion
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David Dekx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-19 09:54:24 UTC
I was mining with a pair of Secure Cargo Containers in 0.9 sec space. Both were password protected but unanchored so the password was disabled. Someone came in and dropped some jetcans of his own in what I assumed was an attempt to bait me into a fight. Later on he comes back when my containers were about 75% full and transfered all the contents to his containers.
That's fair enough, it's EVE afterall, but what I'm struggling to understand is how he did it without me getting any sort of kill/aggression rights. As far as I can tell he took my cargo right in front of me and completely got away with it, but half an hour later when I took that same cargo back from his jetcan he (and his corp) scored kill rights on me. I placed my containers with the 'Launch for Self' option. Is there a more secure way to do it (without moving to a lower security region)?

I'm not raging over the loss or anything. I got it back and even if I didn't it was only a few hundred thousand ISK worth. I'm just really confused about how it happened. As far as I can tell this means just shooting my cargo directly out into space is more secure than Secure Cargo Containers (at least in +0.8).


[On a side note, why is it that you can only password protect when anchored? And why do we have to go so far out to anchor in the first place?]
gfldex
#2 - 2012-05-19 10:09:59 UTC
The answer to your question is:

David Dekx wrote:
unanchored


David Dekx wrote:
[On a side note, why is it that you can only password protect when anchored? And why do we have to go so far out to anchor in the first place?]


Game designers usually don't tell us why they do things. The general consensus is that they are confused by their own actions as often then we are.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
David Dekx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-19 10:58:59 UTC
Just to be clear you're saying that a Secure Cargo Container out in space is actually a public container open to everyone (until anchored and password protected)? If I see one I can fly up to it, put things in and take them out, scoop the whole thing up and wander off without anything negative happening? So in order to continue jetmining in mid-to-high sec regions I'll want to leave the Secure Cargo Containers in my mover ship's cargo hold (giving me the 1800m^3 bonus cargo space from the containers) and use the standard free jetison container while mining?
It won't get CONCORD to fight my battles but it will allow me and my corp to go after the culprit, which is the maximum I can do to protect cargo while it's out in space. Right?

Sorry if this seems dumb I'd just imagine that if anything it'd work the other way around.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-05-19 11:50:06 UTC
In relation to your original post:

In 0.8 and above secure containers are useless. They can't be anchored (and thus not password protected), which means you might as well use your normal jet-can which holds much more ores.

Below 0.8 you can anchor them and password protect them which means nobody would be able to access them, yet they don't have many space so they will be full quickly and if you are in anything bigger then a frigate they will fill up really fast.

---

When the person stole from your can, was it coloured white (your can) or blue (abandoned). If white, you would have received a 15 minutes ability to kill the person (this is something totally different then kill rights - kill rights are granted when someone for instance suicide gank you and you don't fight back, this will get you the right to get back to the guy and kill his ship once) cause he stole from you (like he got the same 15 minutes when you stole stuff back), if it was blue the can is free for all to take.

The more secure way to jet-can mine is:

- Don't jet-can mine.
- Use 2nd account / friend to haul while you mine. Your miner jetcans the ores in normal jet can + a bookmark. The hauler takes everything but the bookmark (the bookmark keeps the can open for the duration of its life - 1h when unnamed, 2h when named) and with this only the bookmark can be stolen.
- Use 2nd account / friend in an Orca to give you boost and provide huge storage system.

Don't know why you can only password protect anchored cans, but it's a game mechanic so we have to live with it. Same for the distances.

---

In relation to your reply:

Any unanchored container in space is free for all, period. Yes you can PUT things in it without kill-rights as it's not stealing, it's donating. Taking stuff however from owned containers is considered stealing and will get the owner (and his player corp) kill rights on you for 15 minutes.

Also CONCORD doesn't fight your battles, CONCORD is there to punish offenders.
Also your corp can only help you if you are in a player corp, so SAK members can't help you.
But yes, you're right that the only protection against steal from you is that you can shoot the person for the next 15 minutes. Or like I already said, don't jetcan mine or get an orca to help you it's the only way to make it completely safe.

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Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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David Dekx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-19 12:04:58 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
When the person stole from your can, was it coloured white (your can) or blue (abandoned). If white, you would have received a 15 minutes ability to kill the person (this is something totally different then kill rights - kill rights are granted when someone for instance suicide gank you and you don't fight back, this will get you the right to get back to the guy and kill his ship once) cause he stole from you (like he got the same 15 minutes when you stole stuff back), if it was blue the can is free for all to take.


This is where all the confusion has stemmed from. It was white, I watched him take it (I'd just transfered some minerals in) and nothing happened. I thought I'd get the yellow aggressor message or his ship indicator would change colour but it didn't. Not like when I retrived the cargo later.


Overall it sounds like good advice. I'm not quite ready to commit to being a miner so I might hold off on the second account for now (I'm mostly just doing it while reading guides and taking a break from security missions). Although from what I understand I can give it 51 days game time pretty cheap.

Thanks for the help guys.
gfldex
#6 - 2012-05-19 12:33:33 UTC
David Dekx wrote:
This is where all the confusion has stemmed from.


The confusion came form the assumption that secure containers act like jet cans. They don't because they don't need to. Using a secure container in space where you can't anchor them is pointless because anybody can scoop them.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Oraac Ensor
#7 - 2012-05-19 13:41:31 UTC
This will totally confuse a lot of newbies:

J'Poll wrote:
When the person stole from your can, was it coloured white (your can) or blue (abandoned). If white, you would have received a 15 minutes ability to kill the person (this is something totally different then kill rights- kill rights are granted when someone for instance suicide gank you and you don't fight back, this will get you the right to get back to the guy and kill his ship once) cause he stole from you (like he got the same 15 minutes when you stole stuff back), if it was blue the can is free for all to take.

>>>

Any unanchored container in space is free for all, period. Yes you can PUT things in it without kill-rights as it's not stealing, it's donating. Taking stuff however from owned containers is considered stealing and will get the owner (and his player corp) kill rightson you for 15 minutes.


gfldex wrote:
David Dekx wrote:
This is where all the confusion has stemmed from.

The confusion came form the assumption that secure containers act like jet cans. They don't because they don't need to. Using a secure container in space where you can't anchor them is pointless because anybody can scoop them.

Granted that using an unanchored secure container is pointless, but just to be clear, are you saying that J'Poll is wrong and that doing so will not get you shooting rights if someone steals from it?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-19 14:02:33 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
This will totally confuse a lot of newbies:

J'Poll wrote:
When the person stole from your can, was it coloured white (your can) or blue (abandoned). If white, you would have received a 15 minutes ability to kill the person (this is something totally different then kill rights- kill rights are granted when someone for instance suicide gank you and you don't fight back, this will get you the right to get back to the guy and kill his ship once) cause he stole from you (like he got the same 15 minutes when you stole stuff back), if it was blue the can is free for all to take.

>>>

Any unanchored container in space is free for all, period. Yes you can PUT things in it without kill-rights as it's not stealing, it's donating. Taking stuff however from owned containers is considered stealing and will get the owner (and his player corp) kill rightson you for 15 minutes.


gfldex wrote:
David Dekx wrote:
This is where all the confusion has stemmed from.

The confusion came form the assumption that secure containers act like jet cans. They don't because they don't need to. Using a secure container in space where you can't anchor them is pointless because anybody can scoop them.

Granted that using an unanchored secure container is pointless, but just to be clear, are you saying that J'Poll is wrong and that doing so will not get you shooting rights if someone steals from it?


Scooping a container isn't the same as taking stuff out of it IMO

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
David Dekx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-19 14:03:29 UTC
Oraac Ensor wrote:
Granted that using an unanchored secure container is pointless, but just to be clear, are you saying that J'Poll is wrong and that doing so will not get you shooting rights if someone steals from it?


I wouldn't recommend rushing out to try it on strangers until you've confirmed it but that seems to be the case. I'm happy to admit I'm not 100% at home in the UI yet so I might have missed something but if something did happen there was no notification of it in the upper corner where the yellow aggressor timer appears and the offending ship's indicator on my Overview didn't change at all.

I know it's not the right way to go about it now. I didn't realise jetcans could hold so much and it seemed like a fair deal swapping 3000 space for 3900 in an easy to pick up container. I knew that it could be scooped up and/or emptied when I started and I'm fine with that risk sort of risk being in the game. I just assumed it would remain flagged as mine and was confused when it didn't. Live and learn.
I'm not here asking for the system to be changed so that Giant Secure Containers can be anchored anywhere, locked 100% safe and under constant CONCORD guard (as useful as it would be I'd vote that idea down in a heartbeat). I just found it really strange that putting items into an unlocked safe resulted in forfeiting my ownership rights while just throwing them out the airlock didn't.
David Dekx
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-05-19 14:05:09 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
[quote=Oraac Ensor]Scooping a container isn't the same as taking stuff out of it IMO


It wasn't scooped. He simply took what was in the Giant Secure Container out and loaded it into a jetcan he had placed next to it.
Oraac Ensor
#11 - 2012-05-19 15:47:27 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Scooping a container isn't the same as taking stuff out of it IMO

Apologies - I missed the distinction gfldex was making between stealing and scooping. Oops
Oraac Ensor
#12 - 2012-05-19 15:49:25 UTC
David Dekx wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
[quote=Oraac Ensor]Scooping a container isn't the same as taking stuff out of it IMO

It wasn't scooped. He simply took what was in the Giant Secure Container out and loaded it into a jetcan he had placed next to it.

So we still need clarification as to whether it's possible to steal from a secure container without giving its owner shooting rights.
Orlacc
#13 - 2012-05-19 17:14:40 UTC
I guess I don't get why you would put out a GSC and not anchor it. He should have got flagged for stealing from the can, unless he first scooped it then put it back out, then it would be his. So petition.

As for why does it need to be anchored to be locked, use your head.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2012-05-19 17:15:46 UTC
I remember my noob days... running around highsec looking for unanchored cans and then flying up in a hauler and just taking the whole can Pirate

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
gfldex
#15 - 2012-05-19 21:53:27 UTC
On Build 7.41.375815 nicking stuff from a giant secure does not get you a criminal flagging. Would not make sense anyway because an you could just scoop the secure can and relaunch it, to take it's content.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.