These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123
 

Medium and Heavy neuts vs frigate sized hulls
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-05-18 14:17:29 UTC
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
In a real NAVY battle (pretend it's 1v1) if a frigate were foolish enough to engage a BC sized target, the fight wouldn't end in 15 seconds. There would be shelling from both ships for about 15 to 30 minutes depending on how well the frigate/destroyer positioned itself.


Wrong, a battlecruiser in reallife has (beside his mainweaponry) weapons especially to fight smaller ships. In eve, this is the neutralizer. If you nerf this then bigger ships have no defense against smaller ships and that would be bullshit.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#42 - 2012-05-18 14:20:36 UTC
Reina Supremus wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Cpt Cosmic wrote:
I can do this with any ship that has an utility high slot. cyclone, cane, rupture, arbitrator, tempest and many more...


Really? Seems I can do it with ships that don't have utility high slots as well...Big smile

The point is that Winmatard ships have the advantage of not being as cap dependent as other races


Can u stop hijacking this thread for your winmatarwhinage?
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-05-18 21:42:32 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
In a real NAVY battle (pretend it's 1v1) if a frigate were foolish enough to engage a BC sized target, the fight wouldn't end in 15 seconds. There would be shelling from both ships for about 15 to 30 minutes depending on how well the frigate/destroyer positioned itself.


Wrong, a battlecruiser in reallife has (beside his mainweaponry) weapons especially to fight smaller ships. In eve, this is the neutralizer. If you nerf this then bigger ships have no defense against smaller ships and that would be bullshit.


Start reading up on historical naval battles, especially how the English actually won against the Spanish armada with much smaller ships.

A modern destroyer could certainly slug it out for a 15-30 minutes with a modern battlecruiser, since the BC could never "cross the T."

Two Modern destroyers would force a "crossing of the T" and completely demolish the lone battlecruiser.

If you argue this I'll just post some long naval history diatribes and embarrass you.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-05-21 00:58:46 UTC
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
Unimaginative Guy wrote:
Frigates should feel useless near anything bigger than it. In a Navy battle would you bring a fishing boat with a 50mm cannon to a cruiser and carrier fight?

Frigs are meant for speed or disposable tackle or ***** and giggles. a Battlecruiser will own one and in a way really should be able to destroy one.


Well you are quite unimaginative. However I agree that a BC should pwn a frig and be guaranteed a win 99% of the time in a 1v1 fight. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they should wtfpwn them in under 15 seconds either if they are close range combat frigates.

In a real NAVY battle (pretend it's 1v1) if a frigate were foolish enough to engage a BC sized target, the fight wouldn't end in 15 seconds. There would be shelling from both ships for about 15 to 30 minutes depending on how well the frigate/destroyer positioned itself.

Now am I saying that EvE should mimic the real high seas of the 18 and early 19th century and have frigate vs BC fights that last 15 minutes or Battleship fights (1v1) that last 2+ hours? No, that would face pounding for 99% of the EvE population (it's a game in the end).

However, I do a believe an entire redesign of the game is due, such that a combat vessel fighting it's same hull size vessel should take about 3-5 minutes (assuming similar skills and loadout). A frigate vs BC should last about 60-120 seconds with the BC winning the fight (this means a BC would be very vulnerable to a swarm of 4+ frigates and perhaps bring about an end EvE- Drakes and Hurricanes Online).

So sir may I redirect you to:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107690&find=unread

except that you must rememebr thats back in the day when the best of our guns were about on apr with the ebst fo our defenses, a ship coudl take a ebating and eb fixed AT SEA>

hwoever, even just in this modern era, we have spedialty rounds, high-powered guns,a dn whatnot DESIGNED to wtfbbq a target tod eath in udner 5 minutes.


most fo the reason things back in the day took forever was ebcause they were ALWAYS MISSING or just hitting unnecesary parts of their taregt, but with computer-aided targeting your nearly guaranteed a good hit to anything your guns are fast enough to track, emaning fights get ended mroe quickly.


add in to the fact that eve is in space, and holes in containers tend to do nasty things when exposed to a vaccuum. it amkes sense that a 1v1 same-hull fight would end VERY QUICKLY.
Ayame Tao
#45 - 2012-05-21 16:58:53 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Archimedes Eratosthenes wrote:
Unimaginative Guy wrote:
Frigates should feel useless near anything bigger than it. In a Navy battle would you bring a fishing boat with a 50mm cannon to a cruiser and carrier fight?

Frigs are meant for speed or disposable tackle or ***** and giggles. a Battlecruiser will own one and in a way really should be able to destroy one.


Well you are quite unimaginative. However I agree that a BC should pwn a frig and be guaranteed a win 99% of the time in a 1v1 fight. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they should wtfpwn them in under 15 seconds either if they are close range combat frigates.

In a real NAVY battle (pretend it's 1v1) if a frigate were foolish enough to engage a BC sized target, the fight wouldn't end in 15 seconds. There would be shelling from both ships for about 15 to 30 minutes depending on how well the frigate/destroyer positioned itself.

Now am I saying that EvE should mimic the real high seas of the 18 and early 19th century and have frigate vs BC fights that last 15 minutes or Battleship fights (1v1) that last 2+ hours? No, that would face pounding for 99% of the EvE population (it's a game in the end).

However, I do a believe an entire redesign of the game is due, such that a combat vessel fighting it's same hull size vessel should take about 3-5 minutes (assuming similar skills and loadout). A frigate vs BC should last about 60-120 seconds with the BC winning the fight (this means a BC would be very vulnerable to a swarm of 4+ frigates and perhaps bring about an end EvE- Drakes and Hurricanes Online).

So sir may I redirect you to:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107690&find=unread

except that you must rememebr thats back in the day when the best of our guns were about on apr with the ebst fo our defenses, a ship coudl take a ebating and eb fixed AT SEA>

hwoever, even just in this modern era, we have spedialty rounds, high-powered guns,a dn whatnot DESIGNED to wtfbbq a target tod eath in udner 5 minutes.


most fo the reason things back in the day took forever was ebcause they were ALWAYS MISSING or just hitting unnecesary parts of their taregt, but with computer-aided targeting your nearly guaranteed a good hit to anything your guns are fast enough to track, emaning fights get ended mroe quickly.


add in to the fact that eve is in space, and holes in containers tend to do nasty things when exposed to a vaccuum. it amkes sense that a 1v1 same-hull fight would end VERY QUICKLY.



Comparing any of this to naval history is completely irrelevent. If a 'frigate' engaged a 'cruiser' the fight would be over in as long as it took to launch an advanced anti ship missile with BVR / OTH targetting.

Naval ships haven't fought with guns for a long time.

Besides, 'crossing the T' or any other outdated maneuvering is irrelevant when applied to spaceships with 360 degree full turret coverage. It's even largely irrelevent to modern naval tactics where positioning just means whose shores you're nearest to and whether they have any oil.

Interesting as it is, it completely doesn't apply to spaceships, especially not when balancing them is under discussion. I too would love to see more small ships, but as EvE is such a long running game, power creep is inevitable and people like to win more than they like to have challenge, so increasing cost, size and power of typical ship engagements is the order of the day.

Hoepfully, the continuing revamp of Faction Warfare will help this a lot with hull restrictions placing a hard limit that netralises (ha!) BS blobs.

As said, Frigs can easily get under larger guns where a BS's only sensible option is to neut them. (other options may apply. Neuts are not suitable for children under 5, consult your physician before using this opinion)
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#46 - 2012-05-21 18:34:25 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Reina Supremus wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Cpt Cosmic wrote:
I can do this with any ship that has an utility high slot. cyclone, cane, rupture, arbitrator, tempest and many more...


Really? Seems I can do it with ships that don't have utility high slots as well...Big smile

The point is that Winmatard ships have the advantage of not being as cap dependent as other races


Amarr/Gallente = heavy cap dependant for shooting/moving/tank

Calamari no cap = wreck, however before it explodes in a super beautiful explosion shoots pretty well

Minmatar = what is cap for unless for moving around with an OH MWD? -and, nice joke this one, the generous mid slots aloud you to fit cap injector just in case...

I too wish all races were the same. Oh wait....

So deal with it! Get some webs of your own, and catch the damn thing. All that speed comes at a cost of toughness. Or outrange them. Or TD them. While I agree that the the balance of utility high slots was probably not foremost in the dev's brain, I think the root of the problem is that you can't fit anything else there besides what, a DLA? A Smartbomb? No wonder people have taken to using the only effective non-weapon module that subcaps can fit in a highslot.



I can fly all races in game, how much bothered do you think I am because of this ridiculous drawback when using neuts?

You missed the important stuff, as always, balance doesn't mean everything must be the same nor doesn't mean there must be a top dog for everything and a victim because there must be one.

Your lack of understanding balance, fun factor and gaming is just incredible.

brb
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-05-22 00:07:50 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
scissors are OP
-paper


nerf paper
-rock
TomyLobo
U2EZ
#48 - 2012-05-22 11:02:06 UTC
If you are so concerned about this then find a way to fit cap batteries. Big smile
Previous page123