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New dev blog: With Friends Like These... - New Ally System

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leich
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#21 - 2012-05-18 19:37:34 UTC  |  Edited by: leich
Avila Cracko wrote:
first

edit:
And you know whats the funniest part about all this "war changes"?
You did not solve anything.
You even didn't implement the main thing that you talked about and that is commitment.
Attacker can war dec without any consequence at all.
And they dont have any commitment on that war, just don't pay and you are out.
And defender have onle one option and that is to become ISK cow for an "Ally".

Only consequence that attacker might have is that defender make war mutual (and they have only 24 hour window for that) and then look for ally to make some problems for attacker - and even that you want to remove. Roll
And easy way for attacker to remove and that problem is to quit/kill corp and make a new one. And we all know that that is no problem at all for them because 95% of attackers are griefers that grief on their alts.

I don't see what you want accomplish.
You only want to help griefers and screw other players?


I can't believe how ironic this post is.

it describes the exact opposite of what is wrong with current war mechanics.

For far to long they have made it easy for people to escape PVP.

CCP had the chance to fix it making it harder to avoid but the blew it with this.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#22 - 2012-05-18 19:38:16 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

Post expansion war will be an even less viable option for 99% of highsec inhabitants than it is now. This expansion is a joke, and the advertisements that refer to it as "war fueled" are fraudulent.


I think your estimate is a bit off. I think a large part of what the expansion's purpose was to correct a lot of the problems with the current mechanics. (except they forgot neutral RR cough cough)

If someone screwed you really hard, you'd pay the 50M+ to get get them anyway. If it isn't worth 50M they must not have pissed you off THAT bad. It's what, a couple level 4's? It shouldn't be that bad, unless the guy cleaned the corp wallet out and you used it as your personal wallet... then your prob screwed regardless.

And you will then be blobbed into station by the dozen corps that are called as an ally and are looking for good fights and free targets. The price IS an issue in my opinion, but the ally system is worse.


The solution is easy for most situations. You put in a CONCORD fee for every ally that gets multiplied by the number of allies you bring in. This fee should be paid every week to keep them as allies in the war, and should be on the same order as a dec fee. That way, people will only pay for the groups they can afford to bring in, rather than the whole world jumping onto their decs.
Lemming Alpha1dash1
Lemmings Online
#23 - 2012-05-18 19:43:52 UTC
Hope you don't have to pass a Mensa test to relearn hisec wardec/pvp rules again


Thx for putting in the effort to update the mechanics, hope it all works out, else we still got ganking Bear

Information is Ammunition,

War does not tolerate Ambiguities.

May you live in an interesting Empyrean age !

http://eve-radio.com/
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#24 - 2012-05-18 19:54:11 UTC
Just for clarification...

If "Mining Corp" (10 members) is wardec'ed by "Evil Corp" (10 members), then...
"Mining Corp" allies with "Good Guys" (300 members)...
is it possible for "Evil Corp"s 10 guys to create a 1 man alt-corp, say, "Sneaky Corp"...
wardec themselves with it, then call in "Bad Guys" (2000 members) to 'defend' them from their own alt, then...
use "Bad Guys" in their war against all the others...?

Just want to be sure...
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#25 - 2012-05-18 19:58:47 UTC
Hiram Alexander wrote:
Just for clarification...

If "Mining Corp" (10 members) is wardec'ed by "Evil Corp" (10 members), then...
"Mining Corp" allies with "Good Guys" (300 members)...
is it possible for "Evil Corp"s 10 guys to create a 1 man alt-corp, say, "Sneaky Corp"...
wardec themselves with it, then call in "Bad Guys" (2000 members) to 'defend' them from their own alt, then...
use "Bad Guys" in their war against all the others...?

Just want to be sure...


No, it is on a per-dec basis. Meaning if you have two wars, the allies would need to be called into both wars separately. If you are the aggressor in one of the wars, no allies can be brought in to help you.
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#26 - 2012-05-18 20:00:28 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Eternal Error wrote:
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:

Post expansion war will be an even less viable option for 99% of highsec inhabitants than it is now. This expansion is a joke, and the advertisements that refer to it as "war fueled" are fraudulent.


I think your estimate is a bit off. I think a large part of what the expansion's purpose was to correct a lot of the problems with the current mechanics. (except they forgot neutral RR cough cough)

If someone screwed you really hard, you'd pay the 50M+ to get get them anyway. If it isn't worth 50M they must not have pissed you off THAT bad. It's what, a couple level 4's? It shouldn't be that bad, unless the guy cleaned the corp wallet out and you used it as your personal wallet... then your prob screwed regardless.

And you will then be blobbed into station by the dozen corps that are called as an ally and are looking for good fights and free targets. The price IS an issue in my opinion, but the ally system is worse.


The solution is easy for most situations. You put in a CONCORD fee for every ally that gets multiplied by the number of allies you bring in. This fee should be paid every week to keep them as allies in the war, and should be on the same order as a dec fee. That way, people will only pay for the groups they can afford to bring in, rather than the whole world jumping onto their decs.


Yes, I like that idea a ton. I missed part of the point of the original post, but I can absolutely see how this could be a problem with there being no minimum fee to accept aid (even in the form of an ISK sink).

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-05-18 20:00:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kata Amentis
war list: Evil Pair of Ducks vs. Pair of Ducks

ally offer: In War Evil Pair of Ducks vs Pair of Ducks


... are the Evil Ducks the aggressor? am i offering assistance to the non evil ducks?

"vs" doesn't exactly show "direction"... any chance of having the aggressor and defender clearer?


at the moment you have a clear "x declared war against Y" kind of deal on the war list...


and if it's always "the one of the left is the aggressor" how do you expect newbies to know that when they open the war list for the first time?

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.
ShadowMaster
#28 - 2012-05-18 20:03:14 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
ShadowMaster wrote:
Just for some clarification.

Red Federation is in a mutual war with Blue Republic.
Some crazy fool declares war on Blue Republic.
Can Red Federation come to the aid of Blue Republic as an ally?

From what I can tell your rules section does not say anything against that, but I just wanted to make sure.

Quote:
A corporation/alliance cannot join as an ally against a corporation/alliance they are already at war with.

X is at war with Y
X cannot join Z as an ally against Y

Quote:
Similarly, if you’re already an ally against someone, you cannot declare a separate war against them or join as an ally against them again. Basically, ally status counts as being at war with the aggressor corp/alliance, so anything that would create a new war state between them cannot happen

X is an ally of Z against Y
X cannot declare war on Y

So yea, neither of those negates our situation.


Yes it does.

Red is at war with Blue
Green declares war on Blue
Red CANNOT ally with Blue as that's a new war state (ally) between Red and Blue
However, Red can declare war on Green if they so choose


But nothing says that.

Your example of green is not covered by anything said.

The first example I gave, using green, would look like this:

Red is at war with Blue.
Green declares war on Blue.
Reds cannot ally with Green against Blue.

The second example, with Green, would look like this:

Red is an ally of Green against Blue.
Red cannot declare war on Blue.

Neither of those covers Reds and Blues at war, and being allies against a third party.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#29 - 2012-05-18 20:03:31 UTC
Kata Amentis wrote:
war list: Evil Pair of Ducks vs. Pair of Ducks

ally offer: In War Evil Pair of Ducks vs Pair of Ducks


... are the Evil Ducks the aggressor? am i offering assistance to the non evil ducks?

"vs" doesn't exactly show "direction"... any chance of having the aggressor and defender clearer?


at the moment you have a clear "x declared war against Y" kind of deal on the war list...


and if it's always "the one of the left is the aggressor" how do you expect newbies to know that when they open the war list for the first time?


aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#30 - 2012-05-18 20:04:09 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Hiram Alexander wrote:
Just for clarification...

If "Mining Corp" (10 members) is wardec'ed by "Evil Corp" (10 members), then...
"Mining Corp" allies with "Good Guys" (300 members)...
is it possible for "Evil Corp"s 10 guys to create a 1 man alt-corp, say, "Sneaky Corp"...
wardec themselves with it, then call in "Bad Guys" (2000 members) to 'defend' them from their own alt, then...
use "Bad Guys" in their war against all the others...?

Just want to be sure...


No, it is on a per-dec basis. Meaning if you have two wars, the allies would need to be called into both wars separately. If you are the aggressor in one of the wars, no allies can be brought in to help you.

That's what I figured, but I've been playing long enough to see how buggy things can be occasionally, and short of testing it on Sisi myself, I'd just like to be sure that there isn't any wierd 'bug/feature' that allows an Aggressor to use 'defenders' from a different war to help in their 'main' war. If it's all 'working as intended', then cool...
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#31 - 2012-05-18 20:04:11 UTC
Nice addition!

Now i can wardec A with my main corp B, then offer him my alt corp C as an ally and let A have it against B while my alt corp gets paid for nothing. And if i as much as convince A to "join" C in an all out assault on B and just don't log in or begin shooting A, the LOLz will be epic.

I wonder where do this CCP guys get so much naivety. They spend months building mechanics that are born dead because even a special child could figure how to abuse them in less than 5 minutes, and yet manage to feel proud about it...
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#32 - 2012-05-18 20:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-05-18 20:09:54 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Nice addition!

Now i can wardec A with my main corp B, then offer him my alt corp C as an ally and let A have it against B while my alt corp gets paid for nothing. And if i as much as convince A to "join" C in an all out assault on B and just don't log in or begin shooting A, the LOLz will be epic.

I wonder where do this CCP guys get so much naivety. They spend months building mechanics that are born dead because even a special child could figure how to abuse them in less than 5 minutes, and yet manage to feel proud about it...

I'm pretty sure there will be an in game mercenary/ally feedback system to help prevent this. Obviously, calling in an ally is at your own risk and you should never blindly trust anyone.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2012-05-18 20:10:17 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?


I'm not a game designer so I'd rather not comment on such things.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#35 - 2012-05-18 20:11:45 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Nice addition!

Now i can wardec A with my main corp B, then offer him my alt corp C as an ally and let A have it against B while my alt corp gets paid for nothing. And if i as much as convince A to "join" C in an all out assault on B and just don't log in or begin shooting A, the LOLz will be epic.

I wonder where do this CCP guys get so much naivety. They spend months building mechanics that are born dead because even a special child could figure how to abuse them in less than 5 minutes, and yet manage to feel proud about it...

I'm pretty sure there will be an in game mercenary/ally feedback system to help prevent this. Obviously, calling in an ally is at your own risk and you should never blindly trust anyone.


Right, but who would turn down free help in a war? Very few people. Obviously the second part of tricking them into dying is more complicated, but not terribly difficult.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#36 - 2012-05-18 20:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?


I'm not a game designer so I'd rather not comment on such things.


Can you point one of them to look this way? Because the number of holes in this mechanic is huge and I'm literally astounded that no one on the game design team saw them.

EDIT: That actually depends on which of the game designers was primarily responsible, but I won't name names.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2012-05-18 20:16:44 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?


We will absolutely be monitoring this closely post-Inferno. We have implemented several metrics that make it easier for us to track what is going on in the war system and we will use the data gathered (plus of course feedback from you guys) to make adjustments to the system in the future, if needed.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#38 - 2012-05-18 20:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Punkturis
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?


I'm not a game designer so I'd rather not comment on such things.


Can you point one of them to look this way? Because the number of holes in this mechanic is huge and I'm literally astounded that no one on the game design team saw them.

EDIT: That actually depends on which of the game designers was primarily responsible, but I won't name names.


it's 8:30 on a Friday night, I'm sure more people from my team will post here when they're availableBlink

Edit: nice posted at the same time as SoniClover

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Hiram Alexander
State Reprisal
#39 - 2012-05-18 20:17:39 UTC
Again, just to be sure...

If a corp, say "BBC", calls for allies, and gets offers of protection from "Eurasia" and "East Asia", who are at war with each other, is it possible for "BBC" to actually accept them, and is it certain that if it can, that it won't break anything in their own mutual war?
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#40 - 2012-05-18 20:18:51 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
aggressor is always to the left and it says so when you mouse over the corp/alliance logo
defender is therefore always to the right and also has a mouse hint

in the war report, aggressor is red and defender blue.


Any chance you can comment on the strong likelihood that no fee will undermine your entire merc market? Will you guys at least watch to see if what I'm saying (and other people like me who actually do decs full time) will happen?


We will absolutely be monitoring this closely post-Inferno. We have implemented several metrics that make it easier for us to track what is going on in the war system and we will use the data gathered (plus of course feedback from you guys) to make adjustments to the system in the future, if needed.


Thank you very much for at least doing that much. I just hope you'll put in a proper fix for this when the ally system gets as heavily abused as it's looking like.