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Back to basics risk vs reward
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-05-17 03:17:05 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
You picked the MOST expensive jet aircraft in the United States Arsenal.


The OP picked the most expensive mining barge for his cost comparison, so I think the analogy still stands Blink

I agree with you completely though, cost isn't a balancing factor for what can kill what.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-05-17 06:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Xhaiden Ora
Any sort of arbitrary artifical rule is counter to EVE's design philosophy. The justification to wormhole space is that physics may be different in different dimensions. Its an enviromental hazard.

Price tag does not equal fairness. That's not how economics work. A gank dessie is specialize to its role: A high alpha before it gets popped. A hulk is likewise specialized to its role: Mining. The price tag does not reflect fairness, it reflects material and manufacturing costs. A Hulk is a big specialized industrial ship full of heavy duty purpose built machinery. A Destroyer is a minimalist little ship designed to be a cheap, disposal weapons platform. Its an IED vs a dump truck.

You don't except dump truck to win just because the IED only cost $100
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#23 - 2012-05-17 06:25:14 UTC
Post your loss mail.
Mark Androcius
#24 - 2012-05-17 11:18:45 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I admire your motives and goals, but I think this is too artificial a solution, not to mention that fact that it would impact PvP quite heavily. Personally I would prefer if CCP just buffed low sec/null, or nerfed high sec, but that would probably be very unpopular.

Altering DPS means you would now need more ships to break a maelstrom's tank, kill something before it gets back to gate or alpha through enemy logistic's reps. If only for these reasons, this is a bad proposal.

Given the options I approve of CCP's current strategy, which seems to be to reintroduce sand box style game play to high sec by fixing war mechanics. That is assuming the changes concerning corp hopping make it to the live server.

Now all they need to do is introduce stricter penalties for being in an NPC corp, currently NPC corp alts suffer no ill effects whilst hauling or mining. This renders suicide ganking the only viable method for attacking them, and IMHO suicide ganking is a terrible and stupid game mechanic.


Well, you see, any form of combat related PvP, is a CONCORD regulated event in EVE, in low, it isn't and it certainly isn't in null.

So therefore altering DPS in high, which would mean needing more people to fire at once, in stead of just 1 person firing, would fit perfectly within this line of thinking.
However, it would of course be very bad for the game, if thousands of miners could just sit in high pumping away and making isk, so that has to be addressed too, which my idea actually does.

Also, it would make botting very very very inefficient. so that would be a nice bonus.

Now on the comparing EVE to rel life part...... i hear this type of things a lot actually.
Why do people compare a Hulk with an oil tanker or an oil rig?
If you find that comparison realistic, then consider this:

Would you really believe oil companies would use fragile boats and rigs to pump oil, if they were under constant threat of being shot to bits? i don't think so.
And since you can't realistically say that Hulks should be able to fit weapons, ( like they probably would on an oil rig ) i think my solution ( or something more thought through based on this ) would be the only fair way to do it.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Mark Androcius
#25 - 2012-05-17 11:21:52 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Post your loss mail.


I didn't lose anything and i play in 0.5 through 0.1 space.

The only reason i posted this, is because i think the game NEEDS every type of player to function properly, but at the moment, the game very much favors the ganker.

https://androcius.wordpress.com
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#26 - 2012-05-17 11:28:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Easthir Ravin
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=Easthir Ravin]Also to correct a fallacy. I have heard the argument that a destroyer should not be able to kill a Hulk, as it relates to price. This is an invalid argument, as it happens all the time in warfare. Example: the airplane and the Exocet missile are vastly less expensive than the ship and crew they are designed to sink. Also they do it from range and in most cases without warning. (sound familiar?)

I had to crush this one, regardless of whether I agreed overall.

For reference, lets say they used a good plane, like an F-22. According to the defense department for one year, they spent 64.5 billion, to purchase 184 of these. Average unit cost: 350 million.
Exocet missiles, the air to ship type: anywhere from 500 thousand to over a million each, depending on who you ask.

Supertanker: top of the line, biggest thing that carries oil: top price is estimated at 120 million.

Just for reference detail: Aircraft carrier, Nimitz class 4.5 billion. (Most recent launched George H.W. Bush in 2006, commissioned in 2009)



Though your point is valid, if I were going to throw an F-22 at a tanker, but it dose not counter my argument that price comparisons are not a good metric for messing with a legitimate game mechanic. For clarification I was thinking about the Falkland conflict when the HMS Sheffield was sunk by an Exocet anti-ship missile, launched from an Argentine Super Étendard fighter.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-05-17 11:31:01 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Would you really believe oil companies would use fragile boats and rigs to pump oil, if they were under constant threat of being shot to bits? i don't think so. And since you can't realistically say that Hulks should be able to fit weapons, ( like they probably would on an oil rig ) i think my solution ( or something more thought through based on this ) would be the only fair way to do it.


You're thinking about this the wrong way. High sec miners *choose* to go out in a fragile boat to pump oil despite being under the threat of being shot to bits. In the real world, if they were under constant threat, they would have an escort fleet to protect them and recon to give them a heads up. They'd even likely be retrofit with more armour at the expense of some storage capacity.

All things that a miner can already do in EVE.

A high sec miner is choosing to maximize profit by neglecting defence and choosing to court danger by heading out alone and not paying attention. In real life, a Destroyer would sink such a boat with relative ease. Much as they do in EVE.

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#28 - 2012-05-17 11:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
I just had a "light bulb over my head" moment.

You said that dessie would need to bring friends with him to successfully gank that hulk. So your intention is not really protect hulks but boost social factor of suicide ganking. Well played mister...

Except of one little tiny detail...

Ganking hulks is already very social and fun inducing events in many corps, BRRC included. Solo ganking gets boring after some time or some ppl actually like to chat while waiting off GCC after popping miner into oblivion so I bet that most of ganks are already friends involving ops. Which makes your whole idea even more pointless.

Invalid signature format
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-17 14:00:54 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Would you really believe oil companies would use fragile boats and rigs to pump oil, if they were under constant threat of being shot to bits? i don't think so. And since you can't realistically say that Hulks should be able to fit weapons, ( like they probably would on an oil rig ) i think my solution ( or something more thought through based on this ) would be the only fair way to do it.


You're thinking about this the wrong way. High sec miners *choose* to go out in a fragile boat to pump oil despite being under the threat of being shot to bits. In the real world, if they were under constant threat, they would have an escort fleet to protect them and recon to give them a heads up. They'd even likely be retrofit with more armour at the expense of some storage capacity.

All things that a miner can already do in EVE.

A high sec miner is choosing to maximize profit by neglecting defence and choosing to court danger by heading out alone and not paying attention. In real life, a Destroyer would sink such a boat with relative ease. Much as they do in EVE.



A real military craft would never attack the Super Tanker, ecological disaster and no military gain. A Somali Pirate may attack a super tanker, but they wouldn't sink it, they would capture and try to ransom it. The only gain you get from ganking a hulk is padding for your killboard and perhaps some miner tears, and possibly if you build and sell hulks some monetary gain. The problem isn't the ships being fit to maximize their potential for their given purpose, but the a$$h01es. Since a$$h01es are and probably always will be a part of eve, the only answer is to not use the barges, acccept that you cannot use the best ship for your purposes, thats reserved for the safe null-sec havens where the botters flourish. That or stay aligned to a celestial and constantly hit d-scan, give up a cargobay extender and fit a warp stab.
Fred Lodenstane
Lizard Ltd
#30 - 2012-05-17 15:25:01 UTC
You could just make some friends, get some logistic support to rep your hulk, and then watch as suicide gank ships ignore your little mining fleet for better targets. Learn to work with the game, not beg for changes that change the character of the gameplay.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2012-05-17 21:56:03 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Would you really believe oil companies would use fragile boats and rigs to pump oil, if they were under constant threat of being shot to bits? i don't think so. And since you can't realistically say that Hulks should be able to fit weapons, ( like they probably would on an oil rig ) i think my solution ( or something more thought through based on this ) would be the only fair way to do it.


You're thinking about this the wrong way. High sec miners *choose* to go out in a fragile boat to pump oil despite being under the threat of being shot to bits. In the real world, if they were under constant threat, they would have an escort fleet to protect them and recon to give them a heads up. They'd even likely be retrofit with more armour at the expense of some storage capacity.

All things that a miner can already do in EVE.

A high sec miner is choosing to maximize profit by neglecting defence and choosing to court danger by heading out alone and not paying attention. In real life, a Destroyer would sink such a boat with relative ease. Much as they do in EVE.



A real military craft would never attack the Super Tanker, ecological disaster and no military gain. A Somali Pirate may attack a super tanker, but they wouldn't sink it, they would capture and try to ransom it. The only gain you get from ganking a hulk is padding for your killboard and perhaps some miner tears, and possibly if you build and sell hulks some monetary gain. The problem isn't the ships being fit to maximize their potential for their given purpose, but the a$$h01es. Since a$$h01es are and probably always will be a part of eve, the only answer is to not use the barges, acccept that you cannot use the best ship for your purposes, thats reserved for the safe null-sec havens where the botters flourish. That or stay aligned to a celestial and constantly hit d-scan, give up a cargobay extender and fit a warp stab.


SS Atlantic Conveyor

Look it up, it's what happens when a military weapon is used against a civilian ship. In this case it's a container ship rather than a supettanker, but the point is the same.



Also, what, exactly, is wrong with having fun ganking hulks anyway? Some people mine for rocks, others mine for tears.
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-17 22:31:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Jackal Datapaw
Yes, I question that, why CAN'T a mining ship target other ships, and mine their hull off? ಥ_ಥ



Also:

Danika Princip wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Would you really believe oil companies would use fragile boats and rigs to pump oil, if they were under constant threat of being shot to bits? i don't think so. And since you can't realistically say that Hulks should be able to fit weapons, ( like they probably would on an oil rig ) i think my solution ( or something more thought through based on this ) would be the only fair way to do it.


You're thinking about this the wrong way. High sec miners *choose* to go out in a fragile boat to pump oil despite being under the threat of being shot to bits. In the real world, if they were under constant threat, they would have an escort fleet to protect them and recon to give them a heads up. They'd even likely be retrofit with more armour at the expense of some storage capacity.

All things that a miner can already do in EVE.

A high sec miner is choosing to maximize profit by neglecting defence and choosing to court danger by heading out alone and not paying attention. In real life, a Destroyer would sink such a boat with relative ease. Much as they do in EVE.



A real military craft would never attack the Super Tanker, ecological disaster and no military gain. A Somali Pirate may attack a super tanker, but they wouldn't sink it, they would capture and try to ransom it. The only gain you get from ganking a hulk is padding for your killboard and perhaps some miner tears, and possibly if you build and sell hulks some monetary gain. The problem isn't the ships being fit to maximize their potential for their given purpose, but the a$$h01es. Since a$$h01es are and probably always will be a part of eve, the only answer is to not use the barges, acccept that you cannot use the best ship for your purposes, thats reserved for the safe null-sec havens where the botters flourish. That or stay aligned to a celestial and constantly hit d-scan, give up a cargobay extender and fit a warp stab.


SS Atlantic Conveyor

Look it up, it's what happens when a military weapon is used against a civilian ship. In this case it's a container ship rather than a supettanker, but the point is the same.



Also, what, exactly, is wrong with having fun ganking hulks anyway? Some people mine for rocks, others mine for tears.







what environment? YOU ARE IN SSSSPPPPAAAACCCEEEEE!!!!

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-05-18 08:13:17 UTC
Zyress wrote:
A real military craft would never attack the Super Tanker, ecological disaster and no military gain. A Somali Pirate may attack a super tanker, but they wouldn't sink it, they would capture and try to ransom it. The only gain you get from ganking a hulk is padding for your killboard and perhaps some miner tears, and possibly if you build and sell hulks some monetary gain.


A high sec Hulk ganker is neither a military craft nor a pirate. Strategically speaking, they're a terrorist or an insurgent. A bunch of terrorists with a destroyer sure as Hell would light up a super tanker. Even if they had to straight up drive into the side of it. ;p
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#34 - 2012-05-18 10:32:19 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
Zyress wrote:
A real military craft would never attack the Super Tanker, ecological disaster and no military gain. A Somali Pirate may attack a super tanker, but they wouldn't sink it, they would capture and try to ransom it. The only gain you get from ganking a hulk is padding for your killboard and perhaps some miner tears, and possibly if you build and sell hulks some monetary gain.


A high sec Hulk ganker is neither a military craft nor a pirate. Strategically speaking, they're a terrorist or an insurgent. A bunch of terrorists with a destroyer sure as Hell would light up a super tanker. Even if they had to straight up drive into the side of it. ;p



Greetings

I would not go as far to say that a high sec ganker is a terrorist. A terrorist by definition is someone who uses violence in order to affect change. Be it state sponsored, Hulkagedon or the lone gun man, pirate. High sec gankers do not want you to change your behavior, they want you to reship into another hulk and come back out.

vr
East

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#35 - 2012-05-18 10:39:04 UTC
FYI @OP: It's risk, effort and skill vs. reward.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-05-18 11:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Xhaiden Ora
Easthir Ravin wrote:
I would not go as far to say that a high sec ganker is a terrorist. A terrorist by definition is someone who uses violence in order to affect change. Be it state sponsored, Hulkagedon or the lone gun man, pirate. High sec gankers do not want you to change your behavior, they want you to reship into another hulk and come back out.


Hence why I said "strategically speaking". As in, using the strategy of.

But, yes, Hulkageddon's goal was partially to change behaviour. Seeing as they're celebrating how much they've cut down high sec mining. -.-
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