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Nullsec Local: How to remove it without completely tilting the scales.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#21 - 2012-05-17 00:52:31 UTC
Local in player sov null sec is not realistic.

Where Concord or the NPC nullsec owners are present it might make sense that they impose everybody to be publicly detectable. A sov 0.0 should require a specific structure that requires sov to be levelled up enough to be anchored.
This way the developed systems would really "earn" an higher sec status (higher sec as in, by knowing all who enter and leave they are safer to live into). Undeveloped, borderline systems would really be the "nobody's lands". This would foster new playstyles: nomadic "ninjas", brigants, smugglers and other juicy shady things that can prosper when things are kept quiet.

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Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-05-17 03:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Here's how you do it:

1. open eve source code
2. find section of code regarding local in WHs
3. select it, hit crtl+c
4. find section of code regarding local in nullsec
5. select it, hit ctrl+v
6. ???
7. celebrate making nullsec PVP interesting.

Local turns 95% of pvp into blobbing, station games and POSing up.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-17 15:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Powers Sa wrote:

Local is necessary for Nullsec. It is how you teach new players to look out for themselves. Goonswarm has a thriving newplayer program, and one of the things we teach our new players (NewBees), is to be mindful of intel channels, and local.

This is why it is an addition and not a change. It adds the option for an alliance to remove local where they choose. Again, I point out that it is elective. You can do nothing and leave it as it is (live local), or an alliance can install the ihub upgrade and remove local for their enemies and delay it for themselves as a byproduct of their hack.

As for "blocking access to the gate entirely" it's a lot easier to block a signal. The game lore can explain the gate hacking in many ways.

Try this way for example:

The ihub upgrade transmits a pattern that creates interference and prevents ships from receiving the local list. The upgrade then transmits the list on a different frequency only allied ships know about.

The ship gate hacking is simply asking the gate for something it normally shares freely so it's actually not hacking it (this is a list normally given without asking for it). The difference is once the ship has the list it transmits it to everyone fleeted in the solar system.

Blocking access to a gate via hacking would be much more difficult than blocking a simple signal.


To add: it could be like cyno jamming and be a POS mod (and therefore be destructible)
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#24 - 2012-05-17 16:58:43 UTC
Ancyker wrote:

You'd have to be at the gate then... so you'd just, you know, see them on your overview?



Nah, as the search for an "i win" button continues, they will soon be requesting to have the overview removed, too.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-05-17 17:12:08 UTC
just make local truely delayed ( not wh delay)
if your in system for more then 2 minutes you appear in local. when u jump in you have 2 minutes to hunt for bots, ratting players, people in anoms before they know you are there..

when you jump in you also do not have local for 2 minutes. so you might be in an empty system ( d-scan away works) or there can be 100 reds in system.
the i-hub upgrade thing can be in it also, but for the purpose of alliance members are instantly on d-scan, maybe blues as well....
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#26 - 2012-05-17 17:14:47 UTC
In 2 Minutes, i can manually fly to every "high value" anomalie in system while scanning for complexes.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-17 18:57:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
sorry look below for my other post. my comp had a fart.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-05-17 19:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Ancyker wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
If people don't like local, live in WH's, problem solved.


+1
my point exactly!

Removing local is NOT gonna stops bots by anymeans.
They will do it using othermeans like gate fire effect or sound of gate fire and i am sure there are many other ways. The only reason why they use local is cos its easier and not cos its the only way!

You'd have to be at the gate then... so you'd just, you know, see them on your overview?

It is possible to make things impossible. If the data isn't there it's not there. You can't magically know. If the server chooses not to send it then neither you nor bots will know about it. Period.

D-scan helps but oh wait, bombers. Get a bomber or a few with points, warp in cloaked, find target, uncloak, target, point. There you go. Got him. No counter other than having a scout inline between systems that don't have the upgrade. That is countered by logging out and waiting, log in after a while and grab a random target. It becomes a lot easier to catch bots as well as normal ratters.

But as I said, that is not the intended function, just a side effect. As for local and wormholes and everything. That's great if you wanna be fairly locked down to 1 system or want to be scanning all the time. My idea is about adding another feature, another tool, for alliances to play with. It's not forcing anything on anyone. The change is additive. An alliance need only use it if they wish to and a counter was provided for those wishing that alliance harm.

This suggestion adds more dynamic to eve and gets away from every system is the same. Null sec is null sec. You should have more control over systems you own -- within reason. I personally think it'd be cool to be able to use different tactics for different systems. This idea emphasizes scouting even more than it is now. It adds a new ship and role for people to aim for. And it keeps the sandbox fresh with another set of tools to bend the universe to your will. It's possible someone will come up with some crazy way to use this idea that had nothing to do with any of my original intentions, but that's what I love about eve.


Yes and no. It is very easy to put an alt at 300km facing gate, watch or listen for the jump effect and notify the bot to save up.
Most bots are in dead end system or systems with very little transit so it wont work.

The things that drives me most to not liking this change is that its a half fast job at best and it does not fixes the problem and possibly breaks another part of eve. Have you taken into concideration how "OP" its gonna be not to be able to see you cos there is no local, not to be able to dscan you cos you got a cloak and not to be able to probe you cos you got a cloak. It makes cloak way too powerfull. Now add to this black ops and its really really OP, specially if you are really good with them like BE. Hi BE o7

Also the idea of upgrading the system to get local, i belive is probably one of the worst. have you forgotten what CCP did regarding system upgrades in the past? Well alliances spend billions in upgrades and then CCP decided to nerf it to death with NO refunds. People cried and did warn that a huge percentage of eve players will leave 0.0 space. Goons were among the advocate for the nerf and were deniying that people would leave 0.0 space. Now look at us, I would estimate that at least 30% of eve left 0.0 space and it all happened in days. People including goons now days are screaming that 0.0 is empty. Whats worst, is people stopped logging in also. As you can imagine i do not want to see this happen all over again.

Also I like local. I like to smack talk in local to both, allies and enemies. I do not want this feature to be removed cos then how am i gonna talk to alies then?
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-17 19:41:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ancyker
Andrea Roche wrote:
Yes and no. It is very easy to put an alt at 300km facing gate, watch or listen for the jump effect and notify the bot to save up.
Most bots are in dead end system or systems with very little transit so it wont work.

The things that drives me most to not liking this change is that its a half fast job at best and it does not fixes the problem and possibly breaks another part of eve. Have you taken into concideration how "OP" its gonna be not to be able to see you cos there is no local, not to be able to dscan you cos you got a cloak and not to be able to probe you cos you got a cloak. It makes cloak way too powerfull. Now add to this black ops and its really really OP, specially if you are really good with them like BE. Hi BE o7

Also the idea of upgrading the system to get local, i belive is probably one of the worst. have you forgotten what CCP did regarding system upgrades in the past? Well alliances spend billions in upgrades and then CCP decided to nerf it to death with NO refunds. People cried and did warn that a huge percentage of eve players will leave 0.0 space. Goons were among the advocate for the nerf and were deniying that people would leave 0.0 space. Now look at us, I would estimate that at least 30% of eve left 0.0 space and it all happened in days. People including goons now days are screaming that 0.0 is empty. Whats worst, is people stopped logging in also. As you can imagine i do not want to see this happen all over again.

Also I like local. I like to smack talk in local to both, allies and enemies. I do not want this feature to be removed cos then how am i gonna talk to alies then?

You upgrade the system to remove local, not to add it. The default is nothing changes, it adds the option to remove local if you choose to, not the other way around. The counter was added so it could be made to not be OP for the defender.

If whatever you are doing requires local, get someone in a blops destroyer to target the gate and give you local. You cover him and there you go. The counter to the counter is just blow up the ship. The counter to that is bring more ships.

Yes you can use a scout, but this requires 2 accounts for something 1 used to be able to do. More than likely bots will just move to less profitable systems that would not be upgraded. I never said it would stop bots and this was not even on the intentions of it, just a possible side effect. The intention of it is to give alliances another tool to use how they see fit.

The idea is alliances choose to remove local from a system, not choose to add local to systems. The goal behind it is they only remove local from important systems. The more I think about it the more I think it should be like a cyno jammer, requiring an upgrade and a POS module. This lets it be destructible without dealing with reinforcement timers. Destroy the module and regain real time local for everyone.
Fish Hunter
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-05-17 19:43:41 UTC
I'm not sure how this change would benefit pve players at all in nullsec. Seems more like a recon/bomber/t3 gank improvement.
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#31 - 2012-05-17 19:46:51 UTC
Fish Hunter wrote:
I'm not sure how this change would benefit pve players at all in nullsec. Seems more like a recon/bomber/t3 gank improvement.

Change was not proposed to benefit anyone directly. It helps both sides.

If you enable it in your PVE systems you most definitely will get more people killed. At the same time enabling it in your PVE systems discourages AFK cloakers as they give away they are in system if they stay -- they benefit a lot more staying out of system until they are ready to gank. You could gank all day by just cloaking next door instead.

You can enable it in your staging system to deny your enemy a list of who is there to defend. If your enemy doesn't know your numbers that's gonna suck for them. If you are in a system that is wider than the dscan range you can keep a reinforcement fleet out of that range and your enemy will not know it's there unless they are spying or hacking the gate.

There's a lot of ways to use it, like anything in eve, I'm not intending it for any one thing. I just want the tool to be there and let the players/alliances figure out what they want to do with it.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2012-05-17 19:49:17 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Here's how you do it:

1. open eve source code
2. find section of code regarding local in WHs
3. select it, hit crtl+c
4. find section of code regarding local in nullsec
5. select it, hit ctrl+v
6. ???
7. celebrate making nullsec PVP interesting.

Local turns 95% of pvp into blobbing, station games and POSing up.


okay, while we're at it we might as well remove

gates
jump drives
static belts

and require probing to do anything meaningful in nullsec

because if you want wormhole style local, why not move to a wormhole?

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-05-17 19:53:43 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Here's how you do it:

1. open eve source code
2. find section of code regarding local in WHs
3. select it, hit crtl+c
4. find section of code regarding local in nullsec
5. select it, hit ctrl+v
6. ???
7. celebrate making nullsec PVP interesting.

Local turns 95% of pvp into blobbing, station games and POSing up.


okay, while we're at it we might as well remove

gates
jump drives
static belts

and require probing to do anything meaningful in nullsec

because if you want wormhole style local, why not move to a wormhole?

I agree sorta. I'm actually for removing static belts from every part of EVE. But that's another thread altogether.

I don't think removing local from null entirely is a good idea, which is why I didn't suggest that. It's a stupid idea and makes no sense. I think that doing this would just make most people leave null and/or make blobbing worse (travel in blobs to stay safe?).
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-05-17 19:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Andrea Roche
Ancyker wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
Yes and no. It is very easy to put an alt at 300km facing gate, watch or listen for the jump effect and notify the bot to save up.
Most bots are in dead end system or systems with very little transit so it wont work.

The things that drives me most to not liking this change is that its a half fast job at best and it does not fixes the problem and possibly breaks another part of eve. Have you taken into concideration how "OP" its gonna be not to be able to see you cos there is no local, not to be able to dscan you cos you got a cloak and not to be able to probe you cos you got a cloak. It makes cloak way too powerfull. Now add to this black ops and its really really OP, specially if you are really good with them like BE. Hi BE o7

Also the idea of upgrading the system to get local, i belive is probably one of the worst. have you forgotten what CCP did regarding system upgrades in the past? Well alliances spend billions in upgrades and then CCP decided to nerf it to death with NO refunds. People cried and did warn that a huge percentage of eve players will leave 0.0 space. Goons were among the advocate for the nerf and were deniying that people would leave 0.0 space. Now look at us, I would estimate that at least 30% of eve left 0.0 space and it all happened in days. People including goons now days are screaming that 0.0 is empty. Whats worst, is people stopped logging in also. As you can imagine i do not want to see this happen all over again.

Also I like local. I like to smack talk in local to both, allies and enemies. I do not want this feature to be removed cos then how am i gonna talk to alies then?

You upgrade the system to remove local, not to add it. The default is nothing changes, it adds the option to remove local if you choose to, not the other way around. The counter was added so it could be made to not be OP for the defender.

If whatever you are doing requires local, get someone in a blops destroyer to target the gate and give you local. You cover him and there you go. The counter to the counter is just blow up the ship. The counter to that is bring more ships.

Yes you can use a scout, but this requires 2 accounts for something 1 used to be able to do. More than likely bots will just move to less profitable systems that would not be upgraded. I never said it would stop bots and this was not even on the intentions of it, just a possible side effect. The intention of it is to give alliances another tool to use how they see fit.

The idea is alliances choose to remove local from a system, not choose to add local to systems. The goal behind it is they only remove local from important systems. The more I think about it the more I think it should be like a cyno jammer, requiring an upgrade and a POS module. This lets it be destructible without dealing with reinforcement timers. Destroy the module and regain real time local for everyone.


if you want to remove local, put it behind another channel/minimize it and disable flashing. Problem solved. Besides people bot with friendlies in local also. A few months ago someone did it in our alliance. He got caught, blown up and his pod was still warping from belt to belt. He got reported, the end! Removing local does nothing for bots. Besides goons have said it before - if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.
I want to talk to both friendlies and enemies in local and this is a dumb (no offence ) way to fix stuff.
You want to remove reinforce timers on POS stations etc? emmm. Sorry mate, but this is very bad for the game.
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-05-17 20:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ancyker
Andrea Roche wrote:
if you want to remove local, put it behind another channel/minimize it and disable flashing. Problem solved. Besides people bot with friendlies in local also. A few months ago someone did it in our alliance. He got caught, blown up and his pod was still warping from belt to belt. He got reported, the end! Removing local does nothing for bots. Besides goons have said it before - if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.
I want to talk to both friendlies and enemies in local and this is a dumb (no offence ) way to fix stuff.

You know removing local just means not automatically giving you the full local user list. You still get the local window and can talk in it. You just don't know who is there unless it's your alliance that holds it or you are hacking the gate (or they talk).
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2012-05-17 20:02:25 UTC
Andrea Roche wrote:
if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.


we have no way of knowing who reported a botter, fyi

we have that rule because we just don't want to deal with ratting drama, because we have better things to do

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Ancyker
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-05-17 20:04:17 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.


we have no way of knowing who reported a botter, fyi

we have that rule because we just don't want to deal with ratting drama, because we have better things to do

I thought it was more policy/a guideline than a rule.
Andrea Roche
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-17 20:05:26 UTC
Ancyker wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
if you want to remove local, put it behind another channel/minimize it and disable flashing. Problem solved. Besides people bot with friendlies in local also. A few months ago someone did it in our alliance. He got caught, blown up and his pod was still warping from belt to belt. He got reported, the end! Removing local does nothing for bots. Besides goons have said it before - if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.
I want to talk to both friendlies and enemies in local and this is a dumb (no offence ) way to fix stuff.

You know removing local just means not automatically giving you the full local user list. You still get the local window and can talk in it. You just don't know who is there unless it's your alliance that holds it or you are hacking the gate (or they talk).


so i am gonna be talking to myself or perhaps even talking to a ship that was left on a pos? How fun is that? why dont you move to a wh? You got plenty of that boring nonsence there.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-05-17 20:06:01 UTC
Ancyker wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
Andrea Roche wrote:
if you spot a friendly boting, dont report them, dont shoot them, we are not here to do ccp work for them, from mouth of th horse himself the Mittani.


we have no way of knowing who reported a botter, fyi

we have that rule because we just don't want to deal with ratting drama, because we have better things to do

I thought it was more policy/a guideline than a rule.


the policy is "don't petition blues"

as we have no way of knowing who made a petition, anybody who understands things and doesn't wear a tinfoil hat would realize why that rule exists

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Indeterminacy
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-17 20:06:13 UTC
Ancyker wrote:


My suggestion is to add an ihub upgrade that will disable local for all except the alliance holder.



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