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New look on Ship Crews.

Author
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#1 - 2012-05-17 09:12:43 UTC
I know this idea has been said before but just hear me out. I have looked around not very intensely but it looks like every other idea for ship crews has something to do with a new module that takes up a slot. Which to me sounds kind of stupid the crew are on our ships now why would training them take up a slot are they that incompetent? I kind of of have to worry about my ship now. Some have skill that you need to be able to train faster or whatever some of them are a bit complicated which is my I think that aren't working.

Fair warning not everything is going to be here i don't want to plan everything out and have you guys say its a stupid idea. If you guys like my idea i will work on it more with your guys help and see if we can get this into Eve.

So here is my idea no mods, no station place, or skills for your character you have to have in order to train your crew, you can do it in space, at a station, or near your POS doesn't matter. I am sure your ship has a few books if not a library (for some of those bigger ships) to train your crew in space.

Everything is gonna be done by a new window which you can access by right-clicking on your ship or a button the neocom. In this new window there will be "buttons" to select what group you want your crew to train from such as offensive, defensive, E-war ect. Selecting one of these changes the window showing more selection.

Example:
Offensive Arrow Energy Weapons/ Hybrid Weapons/ Missile Weapons/ Projectile Weapons

Selecting one of these "buttons" will again change the window but this time to the actual skills that can be trained like Optimal range and Damage.

Now to the training there are 5 slots for training where you can have any 5 skills you want but here is the catch each level takes a slot. So if you want to train Missile Damage to lvl 5 thats it, you can't train anything else. The % that each level increases I am having trouble. I was thinking 5% but for some reason I think thats a bit high. The drawbacks will also increase with level but there will be no way to make the drawbacks decrease.

I am having trouble thinking of the training time if will all be the same or should change per the size of the ship. My reasoning for the later one is that it takes you (one person) a short amount of time to "read a book" but your ship crew the more people the longer it takes for them to "read a book". Its just an idea. No matter what method is chosen I do think these should take longer to train for the normal such as a Lvl 1 skill for you can take less than an hour for some of them. For your ship crew I am thinking Lvl 1 should take at least a day. Meaning that you will have to think about training these skills not just do them. Because when you loose the ship the crew dies and the new ship you are back to level 0 with no improvements from your crew at all. Your skill queue will have to stop when training your crew and you will have to be in the ship to train it you can't start the skill and go fly another ship.

Well thats my idea its nice an simple nothing complicated, I hope. Nothing is in concrete so if you want to change anything feel free. Please leave comments on what you think. If enough of you like it I will start working on more of the complicated part of it, if not I will work on some other ideas I have.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#2 - 2012-05-17 09:27:09 UTC
1) You're adding more reasons for people to avoid PvP

2) The bonuses, unless almost meaningless, would be potentially unbalanced and if almost meaningless they'd be... almost meaningless.


Whilst I have no real objection to the concept of having a ship's crew (considering according to lore we already have them) I don't think having them should alter people's wish to join in on PvP.

Perhaps if you had ships crew who you could train in almost no time(5 hours to lvl 5) that gave a 0.1% bonus to whatever at most and cost pretty much nothing (use current people items and have them seeded on the market by npc's to keep the cost low) I might be able to get behind it.

Crew for the sake of showing the ships have crew with almost no investment necessary in said crew I can understand. Making crew yet another thing that people don't want to lose I really don't think is a good idea.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-05-17 10:08:05 UTC

I keep seeing this idea all the time and I agree it is potentially unbalancing and creates risk averse gameplay.

However it did make me think.

I do not want a generic crew that just trains and gives slight bonuses; some lore/stories suggest that Capsuleers do have key staff, named individuals an agent manager, PA, accountant, research assistant, head maintenance guy etc.

A few key named individuals with back story would be much more interesting and perhaps give more non-combat industrial type bonuses.

How to keep them alive? Perhaps pod upgrades/add-ons if there are only two or three of them, then they could travel with you like implants, not be transferred when jump cloning. But still ultimately destructible and not clone able.

Created through PI Schools/academies

No training time, quality based on how/where they are created. So only cost is a factor in replacing them.

Have a Contract/employment market.

Still not sure though, maybe it would just put up more barriers to PVP as everyone in all these threads suggests.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#4 - 2012-05-17 10:10:40 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
1) You're adding more reasons for people to avoid PvP


I can see that I did have this in mind for PvPers they are gonna have better tanks or more dps but being a somewhat of a carebear myself (I am trying to get into more PvP) the thing to me and to alot of people I think are wondering about PvP is "I don't want to lose my ship" well this could give them that push to be able to bump up their armor, shields, or DPS and to go out there and try it.

You thing about making the training fast I did think of that but the thing is that if its fast the boost has to be low that is what makes it unbalanced to me if it takes a longer time. I mean if you are a pvper you aren't gonna sit an wait for your skills to be done and then fly your ship and if you go out and lose the ship you are gonna have to start over so maybe a mix of the two.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#5 - 2012-05-17 10:16:32 UTC
Alticus C Bear wrote:

I keep seeing this idea all the time and I agree it is potentially unbalancing and creates risk averse gameplay.

However it did make me think.

I do not want a generic crew that just trains and gives slight bonuses; some lore/stories suggest that Capsuleers do have key staff, named individuals an agent manager, PA, accountant, research assistant, head maintenance guy etc.

A few key named individuals with back story would be much more interesting and perhaps give more non-combat industrial type bonuses.

How to keep them alive? Perhaps pod upgrades/add-ons if there are only two or three of them, then they could travel with you like implants, not be transferred when jump cloning. But still ultimately destructible and not clone able.

Created through PI Schools/academies

No training time, quality based on how/where they are created. So only cost is a factor in replacing them.

Have a Contract/employment market.

Still not sure though, maybe it would just put up more barriers to PVP as everyone in all these threads suggests.


I understand what you are saying but the fact that some of this will make ship crews very complicated. One of the past post I read had each key staff its own training and thats to much. Anyway there is way more Eve lore that is even in the game itself. thats why I didn't go into the lore that much because to me they are two different things that just have this universe in common. They don't need to reflect each other just hint at each other.

This is just gonna be a start off maybe we can add more later on but right now I think this is a good start if this is gonna happen.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#6 - 2012-05-17 10:29:25 UTC
Ace Nitsua wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
1) You're adding more reasons for people to avoid PvP


I can see that I did have this in mind for PvPers they are gonna have better tanks or more dps but being a somewhat of a carebear myself (I am trying to get into more PvP) the thing to me and to alot of people I think are wondering about PvP is "I don't want to lose my ship" well this could give them that push to be able to bump up their armor, shields, or DPS and to go out there and try it.

You thing about making the training fast I did think of that but the thing is that if its fast the boost has to be low that is what makes it unbalanced to me if it takes a longer time. I mean if you are a pvper you aren't gonna sit an wait for your skills to be done and then fly your ship and if you go out and lose the ship you are gonna have to start over so maybe a mix of the two.


The problem with this is that people just getting into PvP are already at a large disadvantage to those PvP vets out there as the vets often use expensive implants and expensive boosters giving them a substantial bonus over newbies.

Newbies don't use expensive implants (sensibly) or boosters when they start out, generally, as they want to try PvP without risking too much. Again, sensibly.

With your suggestion all that will happen is that the vets will have another bonus to their already bonus heavy setups whilst the newbies would avoid using their crews in PvP as it had taken them some time to get them "good".

Therefore, having crew that actually give useful bonuses would, by virtue of the risk/reward policy, necessitate substantial investment in time and/or isk negating any argument regarding helping people new to PvP.

The reason this topic has been covered repeatedly and no one has yet to come up with a sensible suggestion regarding ship crew (as far as I can tell) is because short of them being basically eye candy they really just penalise people wanting to get into PvP.
Vinn Kelsier
Easy Co.
Get Off My Lawn
#7 - 2012-05-17 10:36:59 UTC
Salutations

I am not totally against this idea, but as you say it needs attention. The way I see it, is the crews would have to be specific to a ship. As capsuleers we tend to travel in all sorts of ways that would not lend themselves to keeping one highly trained crew with you at all times. I wouldn't mind a crew bonus to my drake that was missile heavy.

Also I see the word balanced thrown around willy-nilly way to often. Balance should remain with risk vs reward as it relates to game play. Unless you come against an identically fit ship with a pilot that has identical skills, it is rare to find a truly balanced fight in PVP. Inevitably someone always has a slight advantage, but this is what makes it so fun.

Vinn
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-05-17 11:17:36 UTC
To be bluntly honest, the last thing ships in EVE need at this point is yet another slot or item of some sort to configure. They already have so many slots and complications they require an external program to help plan out.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#9 - 2012-05-17 19:45:42 UTC
Xhaiden Ora wrote:
To be bluntly honest, the last thing ships in EVE need at this point is yet another slot or item of some sort to configure. They already have so many slots and complications they require an external program to help plan out.


This doesn't take up a slot or anything thats why I put it up here because almost everyone else wants to take a slot and have all these new mods and skills in order to do it this is much more simple and way less complicated then some of the ideas that are out there.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#10 - 2012-05-17 19:53:58 UTC
Tchulen wrote:
Ace Nitsua wrote:
Tchulen wrote:
1) You're adding more reasons for people to avoid PvP


I can see that I did have this in mind for PvPers they are gonna have better tanks or more dps but being a somewhat of a carebear myself (I am trying to get into more PvP) the thing to me and to alot of people I think are wondering about PvP is "I don't want to lose my ship" well this could give them that push to be able to bump up their armor, shields, or DPS and to go out there and try it.

You thing about making the training fast I did think of that but the thing is that if its fast the boost has to be low that is what makes it unbalanced to me if it takes a longer time. I mean if you are a pvper you aren't gonna sit an wait for your skills to be done and then fly your ship and if you go out and lose the ship you are gonna have to start over so maybe a mix of the two.


The problem with this is that people just getting into PvP are already at a large disadvantage to those PvP vets out there as the vets often use expensive implants and expensive boosters giving them a substantial bonus over newbies.

Newbies don't use expensive implants (sensibly) or boosters when they start out, generally, as they want to try PvP without risking too much. Again, sensibly.

With your suggestion all that will happen is that the vets will have another bonus to their already bonus heavy setups whilst the newbies would avoid using their crews in PvP as it had taken them some time to get them "good".

Therefore, having crew that actually give useful bonuses would, by virtue of the risk/reward policy, necessitate substantial investment in time and/or isk negating any argument regarding helping people new to PvP.

The reason this topic has been covered repeatedly and no one has yet to come up with a sensible suggestion regarding ship crew (as far as I can tell) is because short of them being basically eye candy they really just penalise people wanting to get into PvP.


When i did think of this one of the first things I thought of was that seasoned PvPers aren't gonna have lvl 5 and of they do its gonna be rare, with PvP one of the rules is only fly a ship you can lose so if you invest the time into getting one of your crews to lvl 5 and lose it on your first fight. It is a waste where as it will take no time to get 5 different skills to lvl 1 giving that ship enough of a boost to over come other players.

The only people I see getting to lvl 5 on ships are PvE'ers and those people wanting to get into PvP. I know that this has been covered but like I said those other ideas all seem very complicated to do just a simple thing thats why i came up with this a very simple way.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-05-17 20:01:25 UTC
I think that the best way to do it would be to make it simple.

So, I would suggest a simple time mechanic plus some "experience" mechanic that allows some attributes on your ship to become a little bit better (like 1-2% faster locking, 1-2% inertia modifier so you maneuver faster etc) that accumulates over time.

This would mean that there is no penalty to loosing a ship that you just bought and are trying out. But if you have a ship that you fly all the time, your crew gets better and you will have a small reason to want to keep that specific ship alive.

Crews should be able to be transferred with the ship when sold, or retained and reassigned to a new ship (either way they lose 50% of the accumulated bonuses, for having to learn a new captain if sold or for having to learn a new ship if transferred)

This could give rise to people (vets) who sell well trained ships for ISK to support their PvP habit.

This could also give rise to people having fully fitted ships in stations so that their crews have *some* experience instead of just running to Jita every time they need a new one.

Having some kind of way to micro manage their training in specific ways is too much IMO and the original intent is to give some benefit to having a well trained crew, I think you can accomplish that in the way I mentioned.

So, in summery:
Have a few ways in which crews can increase the performance of your ship and let them increase it based on 1: time on board and 2: activity. No micromanaging skills required.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#12 - 2012-05-17 20:05:49 UTC
Vinn Kelsier wrote:
Salutations

I am not totally against this idea, but as you say it needs attention. The way I see it, is the crews would have to be specific to a ship. As capsuleers we tend to travel in all sorts of ways that would not lend themselves to keeping one highly trained crew with you at all times. I wouldn't mind a crew bonus to my drake that was missile heavy.

Also I see the word balanced thrown around willy-nilly way to often. Balance should remain with risk vs reward as it relates to game play. Unless you come against an identically fit ship with a pilot that has identical skills, it is rare to find a truly balanced fight in PVP. Inevitably someone always has a slight advantage, but this is what makes it so fun.

Vinn


I think i forgot to say at the start that you can change the skills of the crew at any moment. Delete a skill a replace it with something else so these ships don't always have to be specific.

I do see balance way more especially when it comes to this topic, but I think this is because no one understands that there will be drawbacks and in my head much more than any module. So yeah the carebear has Shield Capacity to lvl 5 but his sig radius is gonna be huge so there is gonna be that problem when thinking about what to train for.

To me this is gonna make that slight advantage even smaller making those risk vs. reward even greater.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#13 - 2012-05-17 20:19:07 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:
I think that the best way to do it would be to make it simple.

So, I would suggest a simple time mechanic plus some "experience" mechanic that allows some attributes on your ship to become a little bit better (like 1-2% faster locking, 1-2% inertia modifier so you maneuver faster etc) that accumulates over time.

This would mean that there is no penalty to loosing a ship that you just bought and are trying out. But if you have a ship that you fly all the time, your crew gets better and you will have a small reason to want to keep that specific ship alive.

Crews should be able to be transferred with the ship when sold, or retained and reassigned to a new ship (either way they lose 50% of the accumulated bonuses, for having to learn a new captain if sold or for having to learn a new ship if transferred)

This could give rise to people (vets) who sell well trained ships for ISK to support their PvP habit.

This could also give rise to people having fully fitted ships in stations so that their crews have *some* experience instead of just running to Jita every time they need a new one.

Having some kind of way to micro manage their training in specific ways is too much IMO and the original intent is to give some benefit to having a well trained crew, I think you can accomplish that in the way I mentioned.

So, in summery:
Have a few ways in which crews can increase the performance of your ship and let them increase it based on 1: time on board and 2: activity. No micromanaging skills required.


I have thought of including experience but thats adds a new and very complicated mechanic to the game how will it work is it based of size of ship or how may kills. And to me it can be very easily broken if you include it every ship is gonna have to have some baseline experience right out of the gate so a corpmate can get in some of these ships and let you blow him up and you get the experience very easy and very fast.

You could say that corpmates can't get experience from each other but then the pirate you infiltrated a corp comes out and attacks his coprmates is gonna want something from it. Its just that experience is to complicated and i don't see it working.

I do like your idea on being able to trade ships but it seems like that will make the whole idea of this useless. If you can just go out and spend some isk to get a lvl 5 ship the whole idea has been wasted you lose the idea of risk completely. There needs to be that risk for those PvPers where they have to really think "Do I want to take the time to train this because i might lose this ship today" Thats why if you just give them the ability to just buy the ship even if its 50% of the original it takes the risk away.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Reloaded
#14 - 2012-05-17 20:22:55 UTC
Ship crews! Because we don't have enough modules and implants to fit!

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-05-17 20:30:19 UTC
Ace Nitsua wrote:


I have thought of including experience but thats adds a new and very complicated mechanic to the game how will it work is it based of size of ship or how may kills. And to me it can be very easily broken if you include it every ship is gonna have to have some baseline experience right out of the gate so a corpmate can get in some of these ships and let you blow him up and you get the experience very easy and very fast.

You could say that corpmates can't get experience from each other but then the pirate you infiltrated a corp comes out and attacks his coprmates is gonna want something from it. Its just that experience is to complicated and i don't see it working.

I do like your idea on being able to trade ships but it seems like that will make the whole idea of this useless. If you can just go out and spend some isk to get a lvl 5 ship the whole idea has been wasted you lose the idea of risk completely. There needs to be that risk for those PvPers where they have to really think "Do I want to take the time to train this because i might lose this ship today" Thats why if you just give them the ability to just buy the ship even if its 50% of the original it takes the risk away.



Very very basic experience, i.e. like skills your crew experience level always increases all the time until they die as long as the ship is assembled. (repackaging disbands the crew) and while you have that ship as active, the level increases 1.5 times as fast.

So the ships you have assembled have crews getting better. The ship you are flying has a crew getting better faster.

It is NOT dependent on what you do or who you kill or whatever (cause industrial crews shouldn't need to kill frigates in order to be better miners)

As to trading crews, remember that they take an immediate 50% hit when transferred. That takes time to get back. It also gives you a monetary reason to keep a ship alive longer as you can sell it for slightly better price when the crew is experienced.

And to Floppie the banjo clown, read the post. Crews are not fitted, you can ignore them and they would just give you a little boost, but as is fitting a capsuleers status as a god, you can ignore them as the inferior bugs that they are and they will continue to do their duty.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#16 - 2012-05-17 20:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Nitsua
Loius Woo wrote:
Ace Nitsua wrote:


I have thought of including experience but thats adds a new and very complicated mechanic to the game how will it work is it based of size of ship or how may kills. And to me it can be very easily broken if you include it every ship is gonna have to have some baseline experience right out of the gate so a corpmate can get in some of these ships and let you blow him up and you get the experience very easy and very fast.

You could say that corpmates can't get experience from each other but then the pirate you infiltrated a corp comes out and attacks his coprmates is gonna want something from it. Its just that experience is to complicated and i don't see it working.

I do like your idea on being able to trade ships but it seems like that will make the whole idea of this useless. If you can just go out and spend some isk to get a lvl 5 ship the whole idea has been wasted you lose the idea of risk completely. There needs to be that risk for those PvPers where they have to really think "Do I want to take the time to train this because i might lose this ship today" Thats why if you just give them the ability to just buy the ship even if its 50% of the original it takes the risk away.



Very very basic experience, i.e. like skills your crew experience level always increases all the time until they die as long as the ship is assembled. (repackaging disbands the crew) and while you have that ship as active, the level increases 1.5 times as fast.

So the ships you have assembled have crews getting better. The ship you are flying has a crew getting better faster.

It is NOT dependent on what you do or who you kill or whatever (cause industrial crews shouldn't need to kill frigates in order to be better miners)

As to trading crews, remember that they take an immediate 50% hit when transferred. That takes time to get back. It also gives you a monetary reason to keep a ship alive longer as you can sell it for slightly better price when the crew is experienced.

And to Floppie the banjo clown, read the post. Crews are not fitted, you can ignore them and they would just give you a little boost, but as is fitting a capsuleers status as a god, you can ignore them as the inferior bugs that they are and they will continue to do their duty.


Hmmm maybe it can be implemented in the future but right now i want to try an keep this as simple as possible. I think thats whats gonna get this moving to the next stage is keeping it simple, which I think this is as simple as I can make it there are still things that need to be worked out but its not gonna be that complicted.
Ace Nitsua
Mechanical Eagles Inc.
#17 - 2012-05-17 20:55:53 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Ship crews! Because we don't have enough modules and implants to fit!


Like I have said and Loius Woo said this takes no modules it takes no room at all except a new button in the neowcom
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-05-18 08:54:14 UTC
Ace Nitsua wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Ship crews! Because we don't have enough modules and implants to fit!


Like I have said and Loius Woo said this takes no modules it takes no room at all except a new button in the neowcom


No matter what way you slice it, it adds additional and unneeded complexity to already hefty game mechanics. There's just no room for it unless the exsisting system is streamlined to make room. Nor can you add any sort of experience system as that will only increase risk aversion. Something the game has too much of already.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-05-18 09:43:34 UTC
Something optional that gives you a boost will rapidly become mandatory, and any EXP gaining mechanism will only serve to discourage PVP.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Reloaded
#20 - 2012-05-18 18:45:46 UTC
Ace Nitsua wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Ship crews! Because we don't have enough modules and implants to fit!


Like I have said and Loius Woo said this takes no modules it takes no room at all except a new button in the neowcom


You misunderstand. Crews will just be another type of module. Or they'll be a permanent fixture in your ship, which means everyone will be even MORE risk-averse, as losing your ship means resetting your crew's "experience" that people always talk about.

No. A thousand times no.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

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