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Will tracking enhancers & computers affect missiles then too?
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Embrace My Hate
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-16 19:48:36 UTC
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#42 - 2012-05-16 19:50:01 UTC
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit TE/TC but that's at the expense of armor tank or limited mid slots which really gimps a fit.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ammatar IV
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-05-16 19:52:33 UTC
ITT: People posting in General Discussion about how people who post in General Discussion have no lives. Roll
Solhild
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-05-16 19:53:44 UTC
Karn Dulake wrote:
Ive come to the conclusion that the people that post on the general discussion need other things to worry about in their lives


Do you want to talk about it?
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#45 - 2012-05-16 19:53:58 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit TE/TC but that's at the expense of armor tank or limited mid slots which really gimps a fit.


Amarr?
All my fits are projectile. We gave up on flash light lasers a long time ago.

Welcome to winmatar online.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#46 - 2012-05-16 19:54:23 UTC
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.


Yes, that's what I figured the last months. On the caldari ship, you are always running out of mid slots. Guess it's balanced with only fleet fights in mind.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#47 - 2012-05-16 19:55:36 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit TE/TC but that's at the expense of armor tank or limited mid slots which really gimps a fit.


Amarr?
All my fits are projectile. We gave up on flash light lasers a long time ago.

Welcome to winmatar online.

I think I just spotted someone who doesn't know how optimal range works and prefers "reliable damage".

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#48 - 2012-05-16 19:59:59 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I think I just spotted someone who doesn't know how optimal range works and prefers "reliable damage".


Nice troll bait. I know full well how Optimals work and I know how blobbing works too. I also know how base damage works and I know how EVE PvP works too. All the crap about diversity goes out the window when 15 guys are locking you for alpha primary damage and Logistics can't predict next primary fast enough to matter. So you fight fire with fire and just kill stuff as fast as possible and the bigger show of brute force.

Welcome to Winmatar Online.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-05-16 20:15:03 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit TE/TC but that's at the expense of armor tank or limited mid slots which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit a TC/TE at the expense of another mod and have it help their weapon performance. Missile boats can't, regardless of what they sacrifice to fit it. Both can use webs/TP's but only turrets can stack the affects of both types of mods.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#50 - 2012-05-16 20:17:52 UTC
Ioci wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I think I just spotted someone who doesn't know how optimal range works and prefers "reliable damage".


Nice troll bait. I know full well how Optimals work and I know how blobbing works too. I also know how base damage works and I know how EVE PvP works too. All the crap about diversity goes out the window when 15 guys are locking you for alpha primary damage and Logistics can't predict next primary fast enough to matter. So you fight fire with fire and just kill stuff as fast as possible and the bigger show of brute force.

Welcome to Winmatar Online.

Those 600 DPS Hurricanes sure do the same damage that 600 DPS Harbingers do at 20 km. Yep. Or, wait... you're talking about alpha now? Are you fitting arty on Harbingers, Zealots? Apocs? Abaddons? Wait no, you're talking about blobbing, where it doesn't matter what guns anyone has, just that they are all mindlessly mashing F1.

Fitting Minmatar weapons on anything and everything reeks of "I want the biggest DPS and tank numbers in EFT because more DPS and more tank means better fit." Quit posting before you make more of a fool of yourself.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#51 - 2012-05-16 20:24:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Embrace My Hate wrote:
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
I've been told that missiles are low but reliable DPS. Now minus reliable, all thats left is low DPS.


I can't help but agree. Obviously you could fit TE/TC (If they will indeed help) but thats at the expense of shield tank or BCU's which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit TE/TC but that's at the expense of armor tank or limited mid slots which really gimps a fit.

Laser boats could fit a TC/TE at the expense of another mod and have it help their weapon performance. Missile boats can't, regardless of what they sacrifice to fit it. Both can use webs/TP's but only turrets can stack the affects of both types of mods.

As I said earlier, I hope CCP is smart enough to add missile bonuses to TCs/TEs. Not doing so would be really an unwarranted horrible screwing-over of missiles.

I don't disagree that TEs and TCs should affect missiles, I just disapprove of all the whining about missiles not being worth it anymore.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#52 - 2012-05-16 20:34:46 UTC
Defence missile webifier field that reduces incoming missile speed and explosion radius.

It would be like a smartbomb except always on.

Missiles should be treated differently than turrets, not the same.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#53 - 2012-05-16 20:37:16 UTC
Metal Icarus wrote:
Defence missile webifier field that reduces incoming missile speed and explosion radius.

It would be like a smartbomb except always on.

Missiles should be treated differently than turrets, not the same.

The difference between making it impossible for one enemy to shoot you and making it impossible for all enemies to shoot you is very large.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#54 - 2012-05-16 20:40:37 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ioci wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

I think I just spotted someone who doesn't know how optimal range works and prefers "reliable damage".


Nice troll bait. I know full well how Optimals work and I know how blobbing works too. I also know how base damage works and I know how EVE PvP works too. All the crap about diversity goes out the window when 15 guys are locking you for alpha primary damage and Logistics can't predict next primary fast enough to matter. So you fight fire with fire and just kill stuff as fast as possible and the bigger show of brute force.

Welcome to Winmatar Online.

Those 600 DPS Hurricanes sure do the same damage that 600 DPS Harbingers do at 20 km. Yep. Or, wait... you're talking about alpha now? Are you fitting arty on Harbingers, Zealots? Apocs? Abaddons? Wait no, you're talking about blobbing, where it doesn't matter what guns anyone has, just that they are all mindlessly mashing F1.

Fitting Minmatar weapons on anything and everything reeks of "I want the biggest DPS and tank numbers in EFT because more DPS and more tank means better fit." Quit posting before you make more of a fool of yourself.


Corp name says it all. The 'flight of 1000 rifters' corp schooling me on how it isn't all about the blob? How it isn't all about the I-Win button?

STFU you pinhead.

Gunnery tertiary skills are the same for all three gun sets. If you max one, you max them all. I can get a 130K tanked Arti baddon to 35km Optimals with damage ammo and better tracking than any laser fit Baddon. The only two ships in the game that even fit Tachyon are a nightmare and a Paladin. Everyone uses Pulse and a Pulse Baddon will be lucky ig it can get 20km Optimals, not to mention it is now vamp vulnerable in it's dps.

it was good enough it made a fleet fit and a damn good one too.

Maybe you should stop posting otherwise make yourself look like a jackass. Or go back to preaching to the choir because the EVE ingame reality check is, MOAR DPS works.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#55 - 2012-05-16 21:19:57 UTC
It's actually around 5-10 frigates that aren't even mostly Rifters, or mostly autocannons, but that's besides the point.

I would like to point out a few things:
Ioci wrote:
I can get a 130K tanked Arti baddon to 35km Optimals with damage ammo and better tracking than any laser fit Baddon


Ioci wrote:
a Pulse Baddon will be lucky ig it can get 20km Optimals


Try this. 198k EHP pulse Abaddon with 48 km optimal and 3x the tracking of arty on the same hull. Without any range mods, pulse apoc reaches to 62 km optimal and does far more DPS than any arty or autocannon battleship could hope to do at that range.

Raw alpha is indeed one way to play the game, but certainly not the only way, and is only really effective in a limited set of situations. This is why arty Maelstrom is now far more popular than arty Abaddon ever was: it's not a brick and can maneuver to find said situations much better.

That is also why Minmatar, plus Drake, are good for blobbing: more flexible engagement range means you can do little damage at more ranges. 300 Maelstroms all doing 1/10 of their damage in alpha is still enough to instantly kill a battleship every 20 seconds, and requires as much effort as just pushing F1. In the meantime, 300 pulse Abaddons can alpha a battleship every 5 seconds, but they require more competent pilots and a stricter engagement envelope. Because of this they are unpopular. Not because Maelstroms or artillery are "better".

"Winmatar" as you call it is only popular because idiotic blob "PvPers" can't be bothered to learn any real PvP tactics beyond targeting something and pushing F1.

Also, I wouldn't go judging by corporation if I were you, especially since you don't even have the testicular fortitude to post with your main.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Heinrich Rotwang
Spectre Fleet Corporation
#56 - 2012-05-16 21:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Heinrich Rotwang
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

There are no "auto-win" weapon systems. Pick one you like, then learn to use it right. "Reliable damage" is weasel words for "easy mode". I'm sorry you have to actually HTFU and learn to fly a ship for real.


Well, I survived usenet and HoN. The question remains if the path I'm on leads anywhere or nowhere.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#57 - 2012-05-16 21:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Heinrich Rotwang wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

There are no "auto-win" weapon systems. Pick one you like, then learn to use it right. "Reliable damage" is weasel words for "easy mode". I'm sorry you have to actually HTFU and learn to fly a ship for real.


Well, I survived usenet and HoN. The question remains if the path I'm on leads anywhere or nowhere.

Ah, I thought that was general whining about your weapon system being useless now. My apologies, I try to only direct scathing comments only at people who are bad, not at people who do not know better.

Missiles will still be useful, and in fact, the Drake change combined with the new graphics have convinced me to train T2 missiles sometime soon, because things are getting awesome. Used right, missiles are deadly and missile boats can crush turret ships. However, they also have the "easy mode" aura about them, since some of them (light missiles, heavy missiles) will do "low but reliable" damage to any target.

So yes, if you want to train missiles, go for it. Do not listen to the doomsayers crying about how this is the end of missiles.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#58 - 2012-05-16 22:06:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
It's actually around 5-10 frigates that aren't even mostly Rifters, or mostly autocannons, but that's besides the point.

I would like to point out a few things:
Ioci wrote:
I can get a 130K tanked Arti baddon to 35km Optimals with damage ammo and better tracking than any laser fit Baddon


Ioci wrote:
a Pulse Baddon will be lucky ig it can get 20km Optimals


Try this. 198k EHP pulse Abaddon with 48 km optimal and 3x the tracking of arty on the same hull. Without any range mods, pulse apoc reaches to 62 km optimal and does far more DPS than any arty or autocannon battleship could hope to do at that range.

Raw alpha is indeed one way to play the game, but certainly not the only way, and is only really effective in a limited set of situations. This is why arty Maelstrom is now far more popular than arty Abaddon ever was: it's not a brick and can maneuver to find said situations much better.

That is also why Minmatar, plus Drake, are good for blobbing: more flexible engagement range means you can do little damage at more ranges. 300 Maelstroms all doing 1/10 of their damage in alpha is still enough to instantly kill a battleship every 20 seconds, and requires as much effort as just pushing F1. In the meantime, 300 pulse Abaddons can alpha a battleship every 5 seconds, but they require more competent pilots and a stricter engagement envelope. Because of this they are unpopular. Not because Maelstroms or artillery are "better".

"Winmatar" as you call it is only popular because idiotic blob "PvPers" can't be bothered to learn any real PvP tactics beyond targeting something and pushing F1.

Also, I wouldn't go judging by corporation if I were you, especially since you don't even have the testicular fortitude to post with your main.


Another bad call on your part.

- This is my main. One of 4. I left null a year ago. I have no intention of going back.
- Your 48km Optimal? That's fall off. Optimal on that boat is 16km. EFT fit much? By your definition of "optimal" Arti Baddon hits out to 80km.
- Speed Tank and trimark tanks work against each other. 250 m/s with the AB. Not enough to catch an AB Mini.
- You have a 2 minute capacitor, then your guns are shutting down. Winmatar? They have that problem. Winmatar on an Abaddon? I have 4 free med slots.

Everything you fit, I can fit better with arti. Less powergrid, less CPU, No cap and it's designed for range. A Pulse is not.
One exception, the Oracle.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#59 - 2012-05-16 22:27:16 UTC
Ioci wrote:

- Your 48km Optimal? That's fall off. Optimal on that boat is 16km. EFT fit much?

What? Do you know what "optimal" and "falloff" mean?

Optimal is the range up to where guns do 100% damage, assuming tracking is not a problem. Falloff is the additional range where the damage slopes off from 100% to 50%. Optimal range depends on the ammo you have loaded. With Multifrequency ammo, that Abaddon fit has 16.1 km optimal range (as you claim) and 11.5 km falloff. I was recommending it with Scorch ammo, which gives it 48.4 km optimal range instead. For reference.

Ioci wrote:

- Speed Tank and trimark tanks work against each other. 250 m/s with the AB. Not enough to catch an AB Mini.

Since when do battleships actually chase each other? Speed tank sort of works against artillery, reducing its damage by about 15-20%. Not much, but it's something. Also, a prop mod is good to have on any ship, to help with alignment. If not necessary, it can just be replaced with a Cap Recharger.

Ioci wrote:

- You have a 2 minute capacitor, then your guns are shutting down. Winmatar? They have that problem. Winmatar on an Abaddon? I have 4 free med slots.

Sure, and 1/2 the DPS, and 1/4 the tracking.

Ioci wrote:

Everything you fit, I can fit better with arti. Less powergrid, less CPU, No cap and it's designed for range. A Pulse is not.
One exception, the Oracle.

Yeah, an arty-Abaddon fleet will beat a pulse-Abaddon fleet at 50+ km, but it's arguable whether it would or wouldn't beat a beam-Abaddon or a pulse-Apocalypse fleet.

Lasers and arty are fundamentally different. Arty has the lowest range of all long range weapons, and the lowest DPS and tracking. It, however, does not require cap to fire, and does infinite alpha damage. That makes it good for fleets that need to instantly kill targets (which is the current vogue). Beam lasers are a bit longer range than artillery, and do much, much better DPS, but they do it in small, fast volleys. That makes them better at tearing down ships that can't be simply killed in one shot (which is not a very popular way to do things right now).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#60 - 2012-05-16 22:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ioci
Petrus Blackshell wrote:

chasing rainbows


I was logged in to Test server the whole time. I was fitting and undocking, checking all stats as I went. The fit you showed was a Pulse Abaddon fit that had a 16km Optimal. Sorry, you are just plain wrong.

I will give you the credit of the Tracking. The tracking on lasers is much higher (4X for a pulse over arti) .015 over .05 but the simple truth is, you can't get Amarr ships to range and battle ready (short lived cap life - good for skirm, fail in fleet battles) and while Beams work, they still don't work as good as Arti. Optimals are different for Apoc because they have the ship bonus but Apoc never gets used and there are good reasons. No matter how you crunch the numbers, Winmatar will beat out all the other races every - single - time. Superior range, superior speed, superior volley.

I fit Arti to abaddon because I adapt. It's bad enough i am forced to give up my guns, I refuse to give up my Hulls too. If I am forced to fly all winmatar, I will simply not play EVE.

Back to missiles. Nothing will change because nobody uses large missiles in PvP now. So they won't change one bit because? They suck. TD on them makes no difference. You cant tracking disrupt what isn't there. Heavy on a Drake, it won't matter because you only TD what you lock and the point of Alpha primary isn't to mitigate the enemy, it's to kill the enemy. You won't be disrupting the tracking of anything when your tracking disrupter is in your wreck because 350 Navy Scourge hit you all at once.

Feel free to go back to chasing rainbows now. I'm done pretending any of this matters.

R.I.P. Vile Rat