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When Soundwave moves T2 mfg out of high sec....
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#81 - 2012-05-15 23:52:04 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture.


Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need?


A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice.


You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :)

Day 0 Advice for New Players
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#82 - 2012-05-16 15:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: 0Lona 0ltor
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture.


Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need?


A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice.


You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :)


Yeah but every man and his dog knows that moon goo is becoming an active process this year with harvesting at belts around the moon using new mining ship including a mining capital, when I say active I of course mean active as in bots/scripts as ice mining is an 'active' isk game. So it would be nice to have a T2 monopoly in null sec to compensate.
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#83 - 2012-05-18 04:50:23 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Naming your POS CCP Soundwave gives you 10% boost to T2 Manufacture.


Simply having your POS in a Sov null system reduces your fuel costs dramatically. What more do you need?


A monopoly on T2 manufacture would be nice.


You already have the monopoly on tech, not sure what else you really need. Moon goo doesn't even require more work than taking your blues to the bar for a round of drinks every now and then. Best passive income source in the game :)


Yeah but every man and his dog knows that moon goo is becoming an active process this year with harvesting at belts around the moon using new mining ship including a mining capital, when I say active I of course mean active as in bots/scripts as ice mining is an 'active' isk game. So it would be nice to have a T2 monopoly in null sec to compensate.


Sigh....please provide a link showing unequivocally that said changes are occurring in 2012, precisely as you describe them. or you are a liar.

The null sec buddy Soundwave was seen in a Ten Ton Hammer interview discussing the potential of ring mining, but no date was established for it, no ship classes were established, other than he would like to see some kind of prospector ship.
Also, the friend to null sec (after all he did the 2007 goon presentation at Fanfest), was extremely careful NOT to say that ring mining will not still be tied to sov.

It is an extremely safe bet to say that the null sec alliances will maintain the monopoly on moon goo, PLUS have complete control on all high end mins (except for the stuff that comes from wh's), PLUS a complete monopoly on T2 mfg.

But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.

Hell, I would love to see how many mining ships are blown up in high sec vs null sec in a NON-Hulkageddon month.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-05-18 13:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Salo Aldeland
Tessla Coil wrote:
But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.


The extra income of Null doesn't really come from increased risk, it's a benefit of being able to organize a large group of players. It's not so much risk - reward as cooperation - reward from how I see it, and that's great. The best stuff in an MMO ought to require a coordinated group effort, and one of the great things about EvE is that there isn't an upper bound to how many players you can get to pull together, and so there's also no upper bound to how much power and wealth that group and accrue.

My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all. That might just be a fact of EvE, that's the way the content is distributed on the spectrum between solo pilot to sov holding alliance and if after a while you feel like you're not getting far enough with your current operation you should consider the move to a large corp. But there seems to be a step missing in the progression. Going from a solo pilot or a couple of IRL buddies in a micro corp up to, say, a group of a couple dozen doesn't really get you anything. You have to go all the way to the other end of the scale before you see benefits.

Or am I wrong? I really don't know first hand, this is just my impression. Worm holes seem to be a little bit of an exception, but by and large the idea I have is that clubbing together in High sec doesn't really get you anything, and there's no point of trying to operate in Low or Null without a fairly high minimum ability to defend yourself from the large, established groups.
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#85 - 2012-05-18 14:31:46 UTC
Salo Aldeland wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
But of course, this makes perfect sense, for you null sec freaks. You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk. Yeah, LESS risk. I would love to see stat showing how many Hulks were blown up in null in the past month compared to this month in high sec.


The extra income of Null doesn't really come from increased risk, it's a benefit of being able to organize a large group of players. It's not so much risk - reward as cooperation - reward from how I see it, and that's great. The best stuff in an MMO ought to require a coordinated group effort, and one of the great things about EvE is that there isn't an upper bound to how many players you can get to pull together, and so there's also no upper bound to how much power and wealth that group and accrue.

My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all. That might just be a fact of EvE, that's the way the content is distributed on the spectrum between solo pilot to sov holding alliance and if after a while you feel like you're not getting far enough with your current operation you should consider the move to a large corp. But there seems to be a step missing in the progression. Going from a solo pilot or a couple of IRL buddies in a micro corp up to, say, a group of a couple dozen doesn't really get you anything. You have to go all the way to the other end of the scale before you see benefits.

Or am I wrong? I really don't know first hand, this is just my impression. Worm holes seem to be a little bit of an exception, but by and large the idea I have is that clubbing together in High sec doesn't really get you anything, and there's no point of trying to operate in Low or Null without a fairly high minimum ability to defend yourself from the large, established groups.


It's pointless to try to organize high sec.
Here is my analogy to real life.

Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income.
Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.

Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors.
Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?

Open military war? Yeah, like that will work.
Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.

This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-05-18 17:32:07 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
What will you do with your chars?

BTW, the IF is no longer a question.
It is only a matter of when and how.

Soundwave's has made that direct statement in the past week.
The first phase of the datacore devastation is only the first step in the removal of T2 mfg from high sec.

I have no clue if he will remove T2 invention or mfg or both.
I imagine it will depend on what his null sec buddies tell him is best for them.

And yes, before the null sec zealot propagandists jump in, I am insane, I am posting with an alt, high sec makes way too much money with zero risk, null sec players drive all content in the game, and good riddance to my kind from the game.

Now, to those who have thought soberly about this issue, what will you do?
Would you actually try to make a go of it mfg / inventing in low / null, or will you decide on other actions with your char, including lapsing the subscription?



You need to link the source to this info. Otherwise, this is just trolling.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Haulie Berry
#87 - 2012-05-18 18:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Tessla Coil wrote:


It's pointless to try to organize high sec.
Here is my analogy to real life.

Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income.
Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.

Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors.
Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?

Open military war? Yeah, like that will work.
Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.

This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.


Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning?

And this:

Quote:
You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk.


I'm curious:
1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month?
2. How much does your net worth increase per month?
3. How much do you personally feel you should be able to increase your net worth per month in high sec?

A rough estimate is fine, but I am looking for an answer in units of isk here - not, "The null guy gets eleventygajillion times richer than me."
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#88 - 2012-05-18 20:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tessla Coil
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:


It's pointless to try to organize high sec.
Here is my analogy to real life.

Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income.
Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.

Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors.
Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?

Open military war? Yeah, like that will work.
Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.

This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.


Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning?

And this:

Quote:
You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk.


I'm curious:
1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month?
2. How much does your net worth increase per month?
3. How much do you personally feel you should be able to increase your net worth per month in high sec?

A rough estimate is fine, but I am looking for an answer in units of isk here - not, "The null guy gets eleventygajillion times richer than me."


Eve ate my post. Will try again
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#89 - 2012-05-18 20:57:01 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:


It's pointless to try to organize high sec.
Here is my analogy to real life.

Imagine you live in a dirt poor country, with few natural resources and tiny means of generating income.
Now, the G20, NATO, Russia, China, and the EU have all allied themselves, and have decided to destroy any other means you and the other poor nations have of making income.

Now imagine trying to form an alliance of these poor countries to fight against their oppressors.
Precisely what means would these poor nations have to do so?

Open military war? Yeah, like that will work.
Economic war? How can you when the major alliances in the world already control most of the wealth and want the rest of what you have.

This is the 2nd last account I have left active. The subs on the rest of my accounts have lapsed, and this one goes bye bye in early June. The only way CCP will listen is through a drop in subs.


Jesus christ. How do you even manage to get out of bed in the morning?

And this:

Quote:
You know, that risk vs reward bullshit. You make 8-12 times per hour what a high player does, yet with less risk.


I'm curious:
1. How much do you suppose the average null sec player's net worth increases per month?
2. How much does your net worth increase per month?
3. How much do you personally feel you should be able to increase your net worth per month in high sec?

A rough estimate is fine, but I am looking for an answer in units of isk here - not, "The null guy gets eleventygajillion times richer than me."


Eve ate my post. Will try again


I am not going to spend another 30 minutes typing what I lost.
Bottom line, I used to live in Pure Blind, which is ****** turf, and I netted, after combat ship losses, 125 million / hour.
I have friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null, with zero chance of losing a ship, that make well in excess of 250M / hour.

If I could make 50 M / hour in high sec, after all salvage/loot/ mfg costs were calculated, I would be satisfied.
But you null sec guys think that is far far too much for high sec players to make, and are intent of trashing the means we have to hit that number: Incursions, T2 mfg, and L4's in pimped ships.
Haulie Berry
#90 - 2012-05-18 21:09:02 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:


I am not going to spend another 30 minutes typing what I lost.
Bottom line, I used to live in Pure Blind, which is ****** turf, and I netted, after combat ship losses, 125 million / hour.
I have friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null, with zero chance of losing a ship, that make well in excess of 250M / hour.

If I could make 50 M / hour in high sec, after all salvage/loot/ mfg costs were calculated, I would be satisfied.
But you null sec guys think that is far far too much for high sec players to make, and are intent of trashing the means we have to hit that number: Incursions, T2 mfg, and L4's in pimped ships.


"You null sec guys"?

My income is almost wholly sourced from high sec. If I couldn't do what I do in high sec, I could do it just as well in low sec or a WH. My income will not be negatively impacted by the datacore changes and may, in fact, be positively affected.

I pull a few billion a week and I'm extremely lazy about it. Also, there's a reason I asked for NAV increases per month - not hour. Your friends who fly in extremely secure enclaves in null are not making 180B. Hourly income from Pewpew is difficult to compare to S&I income.
Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2012-05-19 11:20:52 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
What will you do with your chars?



4 accounts, 6 Toons unsubscribed and turning off slowly over the next 5 weeks, that's what.

Money is the only thing CCP will understand.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#92 - 2012-05-19 11:41:00 UTC
Salo Aldeland wrote:
[quote=Tessla Coil]
My only real criticism is that there's hardly any middle ground. You're either achieving very little on your own or in a small group, or you're part of a mega group doing it all..


I think EVE as a MMO is an exception in ways how far you can come as a single player. In S&I there is literally no limit to how far you want to stretch it solo in terms of the game holding you back. Only time/boredom is a limiting factor.
(hi-sec mainly though). To give an indication of how far you can actually stretch it, i was making ca. 1b a day net profit with t2 ships and incidentally some other items.

As a matter of fact, unless you are part of an alliance, ie. building stuff for the 'greater good', in hi-sec there is little incentive to work together towards common goals in a S&I corp as the only goal is to make isk and that is NOT a viable goal enough to hold the corp together unless you are very good friends etc.
The social aspect of a R&D corp is also limited, because of logging in/out of alts leaves little room to chat. And if you're done with your cycle, the last thing you want is to explain a n00b corp member how invention works.

So, i tried to advocate this point of view even though i enjoyed my time as a solo t2 manufacturer in hi-sec a lot. SOMETHING need to change to make S&I in a group more viable. As CCP can't change the S&I mechanics themselves a lot, restricting access to resources or artificially making them scarce is a good short-term solution.

Other stuff i can think of is
- Corp industry ranking based on sales/production, linked to
- Working automatic corp dividend payment