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CCP you have an amazing game
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Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-05-15 21:26:47 UTC
lol...I find it funny that my reply to this thread was deleted and was the very first reply and yet nothing but trolling has been done in this thread since. Good stuff!

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#42 - 2012-05-15 21:31:24 UTC
NickyYo wrote:


Going of all you replies about people will just do level 3 etc, what if CCP increased the income by say 30% on level 4 and 5 missions in low sec?



I'll let the pets answer that one. Dangle as many bones as you like but the simple matter is that if somebody doesn't want to go somewhere then they won't go somewhere end of story. And they shouldn't be forced to either which brings us back to the oldest debate in eve: Sandbox.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-05-15 21:31:33 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

What elements in highsec feel like endgame elements to you?

End game in the context I used it in was meant as the final style of play, from which some players do not advance or move on. Often repeated ad nauseum until they quit in boredom.

So level fours would qualify, although I still wouldn't support moving them. As would incursions, and many miners never leave high sec either.

As for your examples, I think those exist there as CCP doesn't necessarily view highsec as something that one needs to move on from and is, for those who find it to their liking, a permanent residence.

If you read my posts you'd see that I don't want them removed.

Personally I'd rather see the sand box brought to high sec, rather than attempt to bring risk averse players into the sand box. If only because hoping they will ever move is futile. Hopefully CCP will manage this somewhat with the war overhaul, I have heard you can't just corp hop or disband and reform to avoid war decs now, as the war follows your members.

Now they just need to introduce a downside to hauling or mining in an NPC corp, the NPC corp tax only applying to bounties and mission income is a bit of an issue IMHO, although I've no idea how you'd extend it to effect miners.

I wasn't stating that you wanted them removed, but rather that was a response to the sentiment that "some players do not advance or move on" from that area. It seemed to echo the sentiment that highsec is an introductory phase and nothing more.

As far as the statements about bringing the sandbox to highsec, how is it not there now? While wardec evasion does have aspects that are broken, such as rendering corp assets effectively indestructible, why shouldn't it be equally trivial to avoid being a target as it is for someone to make you one? What other aspects of interaction do you feel can't occur there?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#44 - 2012-05-15 21:37:06 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
NickyYo wrote:


Going of all you replies about people will just do level 3 etc, what if CCP increased the income by say 30% on level 4 and 5 missions in low sec?



I'll let the pets answer that one. Dangle as many bones as you like but the simple matter is that if somebody doesn't want to go somewhere then they won't go somewhere end of story. And they shouldn't be forced to either which brings us back to the oldest debate in eve: Sandbox.

It seems to have been somewhat effective with the incursion nerf, I've seen considerably more players in wormholes recently since that nerf went live and I've also seen an increase in the number of players mining post-drone region nerf.

It'll have to wait until CCP Diagoras drops some more income statistics, but at the moment the drop in price of melted nanoribbons would seem to support my observation.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#45 - 2012-05-15 21:43:07 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
NickyYo wrote:


Going of all you replies about people will just do level 3 etc, what if CCP increased the income by say 30% on level 4 and 5 missions in low sec?



I'll let the pets answer that one. Dangle as many bones as you like but the simple matter is that if somebody doesn't want to go somewhere then they won't go somewhere end of story. And they shouldn't be forced to either which brings us back to the oldest debate in eve: Sandbox.

It seems to have been somewhat effective with the incursion nerf, I've seen considerably more players in wormholes recently since that nerf went live and I've also seen an increase in the number of players mining post-drone region nerf.

It'll have to wait until CCP Diagoras drops some more income statistics, but at the moment the drop in price of melted nanoribbons would seem to support my observation.



You will always have a certain percentage, the question is is how much and will it make it worth it. And no NickyYo, CCP can't just run a live experiment to test see if it would work out.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#46 - 2012-05-15 21:47:48 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Hmm from reading some posts about carebears still won't go into low sec, it got me thinking.
If this is so and carebears have no intention of ever going in low sec or pvping etc my question is this.

What do carebears make isk for if they are never going to spend it?

You may all have your different answers for this and i would to like hear them but here is my thought, becasue they are wanting to make isk they must have a deep goal to one day hold space and create empires etc. Now, like some posters above have said if level 4 missions were moved to low sec we possibly may see the formation of carebear alliances who can actually defend them selves!

Their purpose?
To carebear low sec with the purpose to spend isk on defending their mission hubs!

..
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#47 - 2012-05-15 21:51:35 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Hmm from reading some posts about carebears still won't go into low sec, it got me thinking.
If this is so and carebears have no intention of ever going in low sec or pvping etc my question is this.

What do carebears make isk if they are never going to spend it?

You may all have your different answers for this and i would to hear them but here is my thought, becasue they are wanting to make isk they must have a deep goal to one day hold space etc. Now, like some above said if level 4 missions were moved to low sec we possibly may see the formation of carebear alliances who can actually defend them selves!

Their purpose?
To carebear low sec with the purpose to spend isk?


Some people are collectors, some are money hoarders. A lot of them probably prefer not to be committed to a mutual dependency of survival in order to enjoy playing and I think you are seriously underestimating the phenomenon of people who enjoy playing MMO's solo.

So close...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-05-15 21:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
NickyYo wrote:


Going of all you replies about people will just do level 3 etc, what if CCP increased the income by say 30% on level 4 and 5 missions in low sec?



I'll let the pets answer that one. Dangle as many bones as you like but the simple matter is that if somebody doesn't want to go somewhere then they won't go somewhere end of story. And they shouldn't be forced to either which brings us back to the oldest debate in eve: Sandbox.

It seems to have been somewhat effective with the incursion nerf, I've seen considerably more players in wormholes recently since that nerf went live and I've also seen an increase in the number of players mining post-drone region nerf.

It'll have to wait until CCP Diagoras drops some more income statistics, but at the moment the drop in price of melted nanoribbons would seem to support my observation.

The observation on wormholes, provided it's genuinely pervasive of WH space as a whole and not just an isolated personal experience, makes me wonder: Does the increase in population consist of those who have already been or had interest in living in wormholes or was the nerf successful in dislodging true carebears from highsec? Either way I think it should be viewed as a good thing, having clear incentive to move to more dangerous space, but if more the former type than the latter it really doesn't speak to the ability of rewards to motivate players who have entrenched themselves in the highsec style of play.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#49 - 2012-05-15 21:55:04 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I wasn't stating that you wanted them removed, but rather that was a response to the sentiment that "some players do not advance or move on" from that area. It seemed to echo the sentiment that highsec is an introductory phase and nothing more.

As far as the statements about bringing the sandbox to highsec, how is it not there now? While wardec evasion does have aspects that are broken, such as rendering corp assets effectively indestructible, why shouldn't it be equally trivial to avoid being a target as it is for someone to make you one? What other aspects of interaction do you feel can't occur there?

Well at the moment war decs are just as pointless and trivial as most other high sec "sand box" activities, at least hulkageddon is done with the aim of market manipulation. Unlike in null or even to a lesser extent low sec it is rarely done for control of an area, or even for profit. It is just PvP for the sake of griefing, another artificial anti-sandbox mechanic.

But beyond that they are just trivial to avoid, which is why suicide ganking (another ******** mechanic) is so prevalent. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the income difference between high, low and null is not particularly great.

And lets face it, high sec is an introductory area. There is not a lot of doubt that CCP intended it as the starter area for the game, and they scaled pay increases to go up as sec status decreases. They just underestimated some player's determination to never, ever risk losing a ship no matter what.

They also screwed up pretty bad with incursions, and again the pay difference between high/low/null incursions is just negligible.

Anyway, I got sidetracked from my point. My point is there is no meaningful PvP in high sec, and even the meaningless PvP is ridiculously easy to avoid. Hence: no conflict. No conflict, no sand box.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#50 - 2012-05-15 21:59:28 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
NickyYo wrote:


Going of all you replies about people will just do level 3 etc, what if CCP increased the income by say 30% on level 4 and 5 missions in low sec?



I'll let the pets answer that one. Dangle as many bones as you like but the simple matter is that if somebody doesn't want to go somewhere then they won't go somewhere end of story. And they shouldn't be forced to either which brings us back to the oldest debate in eve: Sandbox.

It seems to have been somewhat effective with the incursion nerf, I've seen considerably more players in wormholes recently since that nerf went live and I've also seen an increase in the number of players mining post-drone region nerf.

It'll have to wait until CCP Diagoras drops some more income statistics, but at the moment the drop in price of melted nanoribbons would seem to support my observation.

The observation on wormholes, provided it's genuinely pervasive of WH space as a whole and not just an isolated personal experience, makes me wonder: Does the increase in population consist of those who have already been or had interest in living in wormholes or was the nerf successful in dislodging true carebears from highsec? Either way I think it should be viewed as a good thing, having clear incentive to move to more dangerous space, but if more the former type than the latter it really doesn't speak to the ability of rewards to motivate players who have entrenched themselves in the highsec style of play.

It's probably people returning to wormholes, who had previously left them to run incursions. Either that or maybe it's just more PvP types coming back in anticipation for inferno.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#51 - 2012-05-15 22:16:32 UTC
NickyYo wrote:

What do carebears make isk for if they are never going to spend it?

!



As a former L4 bear I regularly spent my hard earned isk. I have always had a thing for collecting ships even if they sat in my hangar collecting dust, though in the case of the battleships I would try to outfit them for my missions just so I could have some kind of variety.


I still do like to collect ships, I just use other means to make isk now.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2012-05-15 22:41:01 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I wasn't stating that you wanted them removed, but rather that was a response to the sentiment that "some players do not advance or move on" from that area. It seemed to echo the sentiment that highsec is an introductory phase and nothing more.

As far as the statements about bringing the sandbox to highsec, how is it not there now? While wardec evasion does have aspects that are broken, such as rendering corp assets effectively indestructible, why shouldn't it be equally trivial to avoid being a target as it is for someone to make you one? What other aspects of interaction do you feel can't occur there?

Well at the moment war decs are just as pointless and trivial as most other high sec "sand box" activities, at least hulkageddon is done with the aim of market manipulation. Unlike in null or even to a lesser extent low sec it is rarely done for control of an area, or even for profit. It is just PvP for the sake of griefing, another artificial anti-sandbox mechanic.

But beyond that they are just trivial to avoid, which is why suicide ganking (another ******** mechanic) is so prevalent. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that the income difference between high, low and null is not particularly great.

And lets face it, high sec is an introductory area. There is not a lot of doubt that CCP intended it as the starter area for the game, and they scaled pay increases to go up as sec status decreases. They just underestimated some player's determination to never, ever risk losing a ship no matter what.

They also screwed up pretty bad with incursions, and again the pay difference between high/low/null incursions is just negligible.

Anyway, I got sidetracked from my point. My point is there is no meaningful PvP in high sec, and even the meaningless PvP is ridiculously easy to avoid. Hence: no conflict. No conflict, no sand box.

Across all sec bands there is a large portion of PvP that is equally trivial as what you consider highsec PvP to be. The ability to participate in both trivial and nontrivial combat is more of a pro-sandbox element than a detractor from it in my opinion.

The scaling of rewards doesn't necessarily mean progression either, as that would be a clear and direct indication that nullsec is the endgame, and having a defined endgame and path of obvious progression means the sandbox concept is even more limited than you argue, but not because of highsec. Rather it should be viewed as finding the right mix of effort, risk, time investment and teamwork to get the kind of experience you are looking for and choosing space accordingly.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-05-15 23:07:36 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

What elements in highsec feel like endgame elements to you?

End game in the context I used it in was meant as the final style of play, from which some players do not advance or move on. Often repeated ad nauseum until they quit in boredom.

So level fours would qualify, although I still wouldn't support moving them. As would incursions, and many miners never leave high sec either.

As for your examples, I think those exist there as CCP doesn't necessarily view highsec as something that one needs to move on from and is, for those who find it to their liking, a permanent residence.


okay

so why are nullsec levels of personal income needed in hisec

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-05-15 23:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

What elements in highsec feel like endgame elements to you?

End game in the context I used it in was meant as the final style of play, from which some players do not advance or move on. Often repeated ad nauseum until they quit in boredom.

So level fours would qualify, although I still wouldn't support moving them. As would incursions, and many miners never leave high sec either.

As for your examples, I think those exist there as CCP doesn't necessarily view highsec as something that one needs to move on from and is, for those who find it to their liking, a permanent residence.


okay

so why are nullsec levels of personal income needed in hisec

To be honest I have no clue what nullsec levels of income are for a competent person. I know what I made during my very brief time there, but then the competent part comes to play and that number is disqualified. How much does one make in null?

Added point: How do you do it, if you don't mind sharing, and do you see any benefits from corp/alliance level income (I hear you have a rather useful ship replacement program)?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#55 - 2012-05-15 23:15:45 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
I will explain this once again for the benefit of folk like nickyyo.

1) Missions are done in pve ships.

2) If level 4 missions are moved to lo-sec, mission runners will be attacked by pvp equipped ships and destroyed.

3) Mission runners will make far more isk by completing level 3 missions in hi-sec, than they will by losing ships and not completing level 4 missions in lo-sec.

By that logic, then moving level 2 and 3 and 4 missions to lowsec would be even better! /sarcasm
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-05-15 23:39:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To be honest I have no clue what nullsec levels of income are for a competent person. I know what I made during my very brief time there, but then the competent part comes to play and that number is disqualified. How much does one make in null?

Added point: How do you do it, if you don't mind sharing, and do you see any benefits from corp/alliance level income (I hear you have a rather useful ship replacement program)?


to put it one way, if you want to raise ISK for a supercarrier, you're better off running hisec incursions

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2012-05-15 23:43:42 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To be honest I have no clue what nullsec levels of income are for a competent person. I know what I made during my very brief time there, but then the competent part comes to play and that number is disqualified. How much does one make in null?

Added point: How do you do it, if you don't mind sharing, and do you see any benefits from corp/alliance level income (I hear you have a rather useful ship replacement program)?


to put it one way, if you want to raise ISK for a supercarrier, you're better off running hisec incursions

If you are saying pre-escalation incursions were out of whack income wise, I wholeheartedly agree. If you are saying they are still out of whack, I can't really say due to not having been able to try assaults. Fleet I would run with has been dead, but VG's are heavily nerfed.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2012-05-16 00:44:09 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
To be honest I have no clue what nullsec levels of income are for a competent person. I know what I made during my very brief time there, but then the competent part comes to play and that number is disqualified. How much does one make in null?

Added point: How do you do it, if you don't mind sharing, and do you see any benefits from corp/alliance level income (I hear you have a rather useful ship replacement program)?

to put it one way, if you want to raise ISK for a supercarrier, you're better off running hisec incursions

Wait what? And I was ratting ...under the watchful eye of Zed Mike ...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-16 01:12:02 UTC
OP is the second best EVE-O poster there is. He trolls all of GD pretty much every day with such amazing subtly. Overall it is probably a benefit to the forums to have low content high reply topics about various non issues. At least they are EVE non issues instead of "what is the avatar above you thinking."

Good job capsuleer!

Ferox #1
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#60 - 2012-05-16 12:08:54 UTC
Kietay Ayari wrote:
OP is the second best EVE-O poster there is. He trolls all of GD pretty much every day with such amazing subtly. Overall it is probably a benefit to the forums to have low content high reply topics about various non issues. At least they are EVE non issues instead of "what is the avatar above you thinking."

Good job capsuleer!


Hi good sir, i am not a troll so please, please, please stop saying i am ok?

And yes, it would be very interesteding indeed to see the effects of level 4 missions rewards being increased and them then being moved to low sec. I am sure that carebear alliances will form to defend their own to protect that low sec mission hib space.

..
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