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Ishtar - help me pls with skills.
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Kaldeer
Billgewater Cartel
#1 - 2012-05-15 17:35:33 UTC
Hello.
Im doing now exploration sites in high-sec with my Ishtar. But I have big problem with DED 4/10 sites (was doing this with myrmidon easily, cant do with Ishtar, always must warp out due low tank).

Here is my current fit:

[Ishtar, Exploration, Angel]
Medium Armor Repairer II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Codebreaker I
Analyzer I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

150mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge S
150mm Prototype I Gauss Gun, Antimatter Charge S
Small Tractor Beam I
Salvager I
Sisters Core Probe Launcher, Core Scanner Probe I

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Valkyrie II x5
Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5


With MWD cap is not stable but I dont use this all the time. Also Im thinking about AB because when I use MWD rats start hit me very hard.

Every one says Ishtar have great tank so Im sure the problem are my skills (still low sp char, only 7,1 mln sp). And I wonder what skill I must learn to be able tank easily 4/10 and higher sites?

I would paste here my current skills but dont know how to paste from EveMon or EvE gate site.

notha atfast
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#2 - 2012-05-15 18:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: notha atfast
Use a perma run AB. It should be fast enough to let you speed tank and it won't make your sig so huge that you get smashed with it on like the MWD does. You might also get a deadspace armor repairer. They use less cap and repair more HP per cycle.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2012-05-15 18:35:40 UTC
Yep, what notha said, AB will help a lot.

Traditional Ishtar success recipe is to use sentry drones, and orbit them with AB on. This mitigates most of the damage.

It has amazing tank against kinetic and thermal damage, and meh tank against explo and EM - typical for tech 2 ships, they always have better resists against their "native enemies".

I think you should be perfectly fine with your tank, try controlling range better. I'd also recommend fitting guns to get better dps.



.
Beef Knuckleback
Pawnstars INC
#4 - 2012-05-15 18:45:39 UTC
The problem is you're using an armor tank vs. Angels. The Ishtar T2 resists result in a solid armor tank vs. Serpentis and Guristas and is pretty decent vs. Blood/Sansha, but in my experience the armor Ishtar absolutely stinks against Angel - a Curse or Pilgrim would probably be a better choice due to their inherently optimized resist profiles.

However, if you shield-tank the Ishtar, you can wring an acceptable Angel tank out of it.

I used this in the Minmatar COSMOS constellation to good effect:

Highs -

Tractor
Salvager
Probe launcher
2x whatever rinky-dink aggro guns will fit (I used laz0rz to maximize cargo space).

Mids -

Explosive Deflection Field II
10mn Afterburner II
1x Codebreaker OR Analyzer (one fit, one in cargo)
2x Large Shield Extender II

Lows -

3x Beta Reactor Control : Shield Power Relay I
2x Power Diagnostic System II

Rigs -

2x Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

Drones - Valks, Warriors, Bouncers.

Tanks 329 dps vs. Angel and can permarun the AB and hardener so long as the exploration module and high slots are inactive. Can swap the codebreaker/analyzer or afterburner for another LSE for a 460 dps tank, which can handle the gnarlier public sites in the COSMOS constellation. No idea if that'll scale to an Angel 4/10, as I haven't run one yet.

Possibly a fail-fit, but it's a "keep the rigs!" conversion from an L4 AFK passive tank used to snore through Guristas missions (a full passive fit can get over 2000 dps tank vs. Guristas - the same fit with an amp swap can get 780 vs. Angel, which underscores the resists issues stated above).
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#5 - 2012-05-15 19:03:03 UTC
Apart from the resistances, you are also not doing enough DPS. Get two SDA rigs and T2 sentry drones ASAP.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-05-15 19:15:15 UTC
As others have said, you want to sig tank an Ishtar with an afterburner. Will work much better. Also it does suck against angels compared to other pirate factions.

The last thing I will through out. Based on your stated SP and your load out, you honestly may want to stick with the myrmidon. The myrmidon is a tanking beast. More important however, is that an ishtar shines due to its ability to field 5 heavy or sentry drones. If you are only using mediums anyhow you would be better off sticking with a myrmidon. You will have more grid to work with and even a rack of unbounded guns in the highs will give you more dps.

That being said, if you are running sites that don't allow a BC, an Ishtar is a decent choice. But by the same token so would a vexor at that point, and a lot less ship value to lose.
Kaldeer
Billgewater Cartel
#7 - 2012-05-15 19:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaldeer
FT Diomedes wrote:

Apart from the resistances, you are also not doing enough DPS. Get two SDA rigs and T2 sentry drones ASAP.


Noob question but what is SDA rig? Medium Sentry Drone Augmentor?

@up
Would be easier for me with Myrmidon but in HigSec I prefer cruiser due ship limitations (for example cant run 3/10 with Myrmi).
Beef Knuckleback
Pawnstars INC
#8 - 2012-05-15 19:47:11 UTC
Kaldeer wrote:
Noob question but what is SDA rig? Medium Sentry Drone Augmentor?

@up
Would be easier for me with Myrmidon but in HigSec I prefer cruiser due ship limitations (for example cant run 3/10 with Myrmi).


SDA is in fact a Sentry Drone Augmentor - personally I feel these work better on the Dominix and Rattlesnake, as I fly the Ishtar with a shield fit and swapping a purger for an SDA gimps the tank unfavorably.

The one 3/10 I've done (a highsec Sansha escalation) was two rooms of frigates - given the ships and engagement ranges you're likely to face I'd think sticking with light/medium drones would be preferable. If you're having tank issues it's best to leave your rigs dedicated to tank instead of DPS until you're very comfortable with the sites you're running.

If ISK isn't an issue, consider the Proteus for this kind of work - it tanks, does adequate drone damage for highsec, and can be exploration bonused with the right sub-systems.

If you're finding enough 4/10s to make giving up on 3/10s a viable option, the Myrmidon IS a real swiss army knife - cheaper than the Ishtar and much more flexible, at the expense of not being able to fit through a 3/10 gate.
Flakey Foont
#9 - 2012-05-15 19:57:26 UTC
T2 sentries.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-05-15 20:15:45 UTC
Flakey Foont wrote:
T2 sentries.



This really is it.

If you are shooting to use an Ishtar to its potential, you are gonna want T2 sentries. I put off training the Ishtar for awhile specifically so I could get my T2 heavies and Sentries first.

My shield skills are crap (just started training them) so i armor tank my Ishtar.

This is my exploration Ishtar, refit to grind some standings. I was going against lots of Angel's

It isn't cap stable, but I only ever need to pulse the repper. In some cases I have also allowed my sentries to take aggro, and act like a mini logi, repping the one under aggro. They can tank quite well.

538DPS with garde 2's They will instapop frigates out to 45km or so.

[Ishtar, Moldy one Mission]

Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Centii C-Type Small Remote Armor Repair System
[Empty High slot]

10MN Afterburner II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link

True Sansha Medium Armor Repairer
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x5
Warden II x5
Hobgoblin II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Flakey Foont
#11 - 2012-05-15 20:47:21 UTC
T2 sentries, orbit at 1k and AB. Win.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#12 - 2012-05-15 21:03:49 UTC
Use an AB and orbit something at 5km or so. Tanking a 4/10 should really be no problem.

The damage comes from Drones, so your drone skills should be very good. With medium drones it's like flying a Tengu with rocket launchers.



Quote:
700+ DPS with garde 2's They will instapop frigates out to 45km or so



I fixed that for you.

Ishtar now does 700 dps with drones only on the testserver. One garde can get hits up to 1100 alpha, wrecking and around 500 avg per drone every 4 seconds.
Coolsmoke
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-15 21:17:36 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:
Use an AB and orbit something at 5km or so. Tanking a 4/10 should really be no problem.

The damage comes from Drones, so your drone skills should be very good. With medium drones it's like flying a Tengu with rocket launchers.



Quote:
700+ DPS with garde 2's They will instapop frigates out to 45km or so



I fixed that for you.

Ishtar now does 700 dps with drones only on the testserver. One garde can get hits up to 1100 alpha, wrecking and around 500 avg per drone every 4 seconds.


Are you telling me the new drone damage mod also works on sentries? Because if it does, that's..well.. Shocked
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#14 - 2012-05-15 22:52:41 UTC
They do and it is fun to watch...
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#15 - 2012-05-16 04:37:21 UTC
I know some of this has already been said:

-- Your big advantage defensively over Myrm/Domi is small sig radius (and speed). Don't use MWD, use an AB (preferably cap stable)

-- Your big advantage offensively over Myrm is the ability to fit large and sentry drones. Either fit larges and some modules to mitigate the speed disadvantage of larges (drone navigation rigs) or fit sentries and modules that buff sentries (sentry augment rigs being the obvious).

Make sure you have the skills to back up your maneuverability advantage (basically everything but jump drive operation in the navigation group) and use it. You should always be, at minimum, in motion at full linear speed to cut down incoming missile damage.

If you don't really want to move around much, stick with the Myrmidon, note that it has a repairer bonus, it's designed to just soak damage and laugh much more than the Ishtar.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#16 - 2012-05-16 05:27:45 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:

Quote:
700+ DPS with garde 2's They will instapop frigates out to 45km or so


I fixed that for you.

Ishtar now does 700 dps with drones only on the testserver. One garde can get hits up to 1100 alpha, wrecking and around 500 avg per drone every 4 seconds.


Now if only fitting that module wouldn't gimp the tank :( I'd need to drop the DCU II, not sure if I'm going to.

NIce increase, tho. Means my Ishtar is close to 950dps with heat Shocked.

.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#17 - 2012-05-16 09:37:05 UTC
Roime wrote:

Now if only fitting that module wouldn't gimp the tank :( I'd need to drop the DCU II, not sure if I'm going to.

NIce increase, tho. Means my Ishtar is close to 950dps with heat Shocked.


Yeah, Drone Damage Amps are a bit problematic on sentry Ishtar ( tank/fitting issues ) but fitting it for shield tank + 3xDDA == 715 dps from Ogres with my skills. It will be hard to make it all work on this boat.

On a different note : New drone Proteus - now that's a beauty Smile
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2012-05-16 10:20:32 UTC
Shield tanked brawler could be very awesome indeed for PVP. For PVE a shield Ishtar is imho just fail, and for me Ishtar is mostly a PVE ship, and a very excellent one.

The new Adaptive Armor resist module could work in PVE and replace two hardeners? ... almost tempted to install SiSi to try it out, if I could free lows slots for drone dmg, it would be insanely wonderful Cool I strongly favor gank to tank, clearing the room as fast as possible is paramount under pvp exposure.

Just posting my low/null Serp/Guristas explorer here to show that not all Ishtars have small guns or lack the necessary drone upgrades and also because it just rocks:

[Ishtar, The ****** has Neutrons]

Core Probe Launcher I /OFFLINE
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Imperial Navy Cap Recharger
10MN Afterburner II
Medium 'Gattotte' Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Shadow Serpentis Medium Armor Repairer
Dark Blood Armor Kinetic Hardener
Dark Blood Armor Thermic Hardener
Centii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Damage Control II

Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I
Medium Sentry Damage Augmentor I


Garde II x1
Hobgoblin II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Warden II x5
Garde II x5



Good point about the Proteus, it has the lows to use the new mod. Maybe EVE will not die, after all. Shocked

.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#19 - 2012-05-16 10:57:12 UTC
Roime wrote:

For PVE a shield Ishtar is imho just fail, and for me Ishtar is mostly a PVE ship, and a very excellent one.


When it comes to sentry fit - you are 100% right but with those new mods you could actually use heavies. Shield tank ( no omnis ) + 3 DDA. As usual it is something for something. You can get better tank with your fit but this one will get you much better drone dps ( ~50% more ).
It all boils down to this one perennial question, which have been tormenting us for ages : tank or gank?Lol

Roime wrote:

Good point about the Proteus, it has the lows to use the new mod. Maybe EVE will not die, after all. Shocked


Introduction of those new mods is great news indeed. It still needs some balancing ( fitting issues ) so that it can be used on different drone boats though.

Did some tests on SISI and it appears that Proteus is quite close to Tengu right nowShocked
Of course Tengu is still much easier ( and by extension is slightly more effective ) to use but the thing is - it isn't outclassing the Proteus as a PvE boat anymore.Big smile
Kaldeer
Billgewater Cartel
#20 - 2012-05-16 21:54:31 UTC
Thx all for reply, much appreciate.
Will try speed tanking with AB. And about shield tank ishtar, I heard its very good but for high sec I prefer armor tanking due fitting analyzer/codebreaker (runing also mag/radar sites, not only combat).

And one more question, what new mods for Proteus? Any link for this news? Someday (someday = few mln SP more Big smile ) I wanna fly t3 for exploration and everyone was saying Tengu >>>>>>>>> rest t3 for PvE.
The problem is, 41 days to be able "use" tengu (not really fly) vs 9 days Proteus.
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