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Updating the Harpy of Doom

Author
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#1 - 2012-05-09 01:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Quick reminder for those of you who don't know what the Harpy of Doom is: the ship is based on three basic concepts:

1) 75mm rails, with optimal range rigs, give you the same damage inside point range as larger guns, but with far better tracking.

2) 75mm rails have minimal fitting requirements, which frees up all of your fitting space for a perma-run MWD, medium extender tank, etc. Feel free to laugh at your friends who fly other AFs and complain about how they don't have enough grid for something.

3) AB lolfrigates really hate it when you have a perma-run MWD and orbit at 20km.

End result: an awesome frigate that is just brutally effective against fast frigates, and faster than anything with an AB on it. It can sit at range and slowly wear you down (or just GTFO if you have too much tank), and God help the interceptor pilot who gets within 24km of one, because I certainly won't.

That said:

The "Problem"

CCP, in their infinite wisdom, decided that my Harpy of Doom needs to be even more awesome, so they have given it a nice boost:

1) MORE TANK. Fortunately using this is pretty obvious. You're already buffer tanking, so more shield HP and resists just makes the HoD even better. Oh yeah, and your perma-run MWD now has a lower sig radius penalty, so you take even less damage on your boosted EHP. Awesome.

2) ANOTHER ****ING LOW SLOT. This is better than being a kid on Christmas morning. Just look at all the nice presents you could open: more speed, more damage, more tank, even more tracking. How can anyone possibly choose between these?

3) BETTER GUNS. It's like CCP was thinking "what would Merin want", and then they did it. The only real problem with the Harpy of Doom pre-boost was that it was a bit lacking in dps, but hey, now it has more even without adding a third damage mod.

So: the Harpy of Doom pre-boost:

[Harpy, of DOOM]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Medium Shield Extender II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 200
Warp Disruptor II

75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Thorium Charge S

Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I


So: four options for the extra low slot:


1) Keep the neut and add a nanofiber. Speed and agility are awesome, right?

2) Trade the neut for a rocket launcher, and add a tracking enhancer. Interceptor tears are awesome, right?

3) Trade the neut for a heatsink, and add a magstab. More damage is awesome, right?

4) Trade the neut for a heatsink, and add a damage control. I suppose if you want to tackle instead of gank frigates, 25% more EHP is nice.

EFT warriors, what is your vote?
The Atomium
Global Song Setup
#2 - 2012-05-09 02:19:41 UTC
5) Switch out the MSE II for a Meta 4 MSE, fit the DC2 and keep the small neut.

aka Luba Cibre

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3 - 2012-05-09 03:07:22 UTC
6) Add tracking enhancer, Arbalest Light Missile Launcher, drop one Locus rig (or train Hybrid Rigging to V) and replace with rig of choice.

To me, the Light Missile Launcher is better than a rocket launcher because it hits at the same range as a rocket launcher. Either way, I like the Harpy of Doom.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Francis Longbottom
Apotheosis Enterprises
#4 - 2012-05-15 00:35:00 UTC
I just carry blasters,web scram and a solid tank.. If they come in my range, they just die
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#5 - 2012-05-15 01:38:30 UTC
Francis Longbottom wrote:
I just carry blasters,web scram and a solid tank.. If they come in my range, they just die


Congratulations on completely missing the point of the Harpy of Doom.
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#6 - 2012-05-15 02:14:45 UTC
I wonder if you can active tank a harpy of doom with a gisti b type small so you could take on almost any ship in the game lol
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2012-05-15 02:26:45 UTC
Could you post dps and velocity numbers? I don't have access to EFT right now.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Smabs
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-15 04:47:05 UTC
I feel like the retri and wolf do the AF kiting role better, but it's a cool way of fitting it.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#9 - 2012-05-15 09:02:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Smabs wrote:
I feel like the retri and wolf do the AF kiting role better, but it's a cool way of fitting it.


Try looking at the numbers again, because neither of those ships is even close.

The Wolf is terrible at kiting. You don't have fitting space for arty, and small ACs do next to no damage at 20-25km. Add in terrible cap (~1 minute before you're dead if you start at full cap) and half the EHP of the Harpy, and you have a ship that's utterly worthless if you try to fit it to kite.

The Retribution is marginal at best. You gain a small amount of dps at most ranges compared to the Harpy of Doom, but you lose EHP and maximum range, you give up the neut, and your cap situation is pretty bad. You've got ~2 minutes before you run out, but one shot from a neut and you're dead.

End result: if you're going to kite, the only question is why you're stubbornly refusing to fly the Harpy of Doom.


(And yes, cap stability really is that important. The ability to fit MWD/point/cap booster on the Harpy of Doom and STILL have room for a medium extender is one of the things that makes it awesome.)
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#10 - 2012-05-15 12:02:47 UTC
Why change what you stole from pitbull on baattleclini ? Lose the neut lose the rigs add damages rig and a dcII and a launcher in the tops . Now you have about 150dps(I forgot the name of ammo) still out of scram/web range
Cpt Cosmic
Perkone
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-15 13:23:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Cosmic
*fail double post*
Cpt Cosmic
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-05-15 13:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Cosmic
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Smabs wrote:
I feel like the retri and wolf do the AF kiting role better, but it's a cool way of fitting it.


Try looking at the numbers again, because neither of those ships is even close.

The Wolf is terrible at kiting. You don't have fitting space for arty, and small ACs do next to no damage at 20-25km. Add in terrible cap (~1 minute before you're dead if you start at full cap) and half the EHP of the Harpy, and you have a ship that's utterly worthless if you try to fit it to kite.

The Retribution is marginal at best. You gain a small amount of dps at most ranges compared to the Harpy of Doom, but you lose EHP and maximum range, you give up the neut, and your cap situation is pretty bad. You've got ~2 minutes before you run out, but one shot from a neut and you're dead.

End result: if you're going to kite, the only question is why you're stubbornly refusing to fly the Harpy of Doom.


(And yes, cap stability really is that important. The ability to fit MWD/point/cap booster on the Harpy of Doom and STILL have room for a medium extender is one of the things that makes it awesome.)

why are you running mwd for a minute? frigate fights rarely last longer than 20 seconds. also the harpy lacks something important for kiting which is speed. what are you doing when something catches your rail fit? also kiting wolf fits artillery not ACs (see below). imho rail ishkur is bettter than rail harpy. rail ishkur can tank well and deploy ecm drones to gtfo if someone catches you. drones and rails hit out to disruptor range and you are not stuck at using kin/therm damage only.

Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Faint Warp Disruptor I

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP S

Small Ancillary Current Router I

it does not have the ehp but it has much higher speed to evade situations you dont like. you dont fight stuff you cant defeat, thats it.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-05-15 14:20:27 UTC
Oh dear.

hydra provail

Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#14 - 2012-05-15 16:41:19 UTC
Wolf can't kite? **** me what have I been flying then? Must have been some prototype frigate no one else has access too :D

I do like this harpy fit though, it'd be a GF to find one :)

Boz Wel
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-05-15 16:54:23 UTC
Kinda funny. I watched an arty wolf kite and kill quite a few inexperienced interceptors last night that were trying to tackle him. You need to use either a MAPC or a SACR, but you can easily fit 280mm arty on a Wolf and it kites quite well.
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#16 - 2012-05-15 16:58:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gibbo3771
Dont see the point in fitting 75mm failguns on a harpy when it has 7k OPTIMAL 4.2km falloff, 10k ehp and 265dps with null.
You out range everything in scram range besides rocket boats.

Also why is it called harpy of doom?

Slow ass AF with 127dps and a big tank, nothing impressive there at all.

If you want to kite get a wolf.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#17 - 2012-05-15 17:09:33 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Smabs wrote:
I feel like the retri and wolf do the AF kiting role better, but it's a cool way of fitting it.


Try looking at the numbers again, because neither of those ships is even close.

The Wolf is terrible at kiting. You don't have fitting space for arty, and small ACs do next to no damage at 20-25km. Add in terrible cap (~1 minute before you're dead if you start at full cap) and half the EHP of the Harpy, and you have a ship that's utterly worthless if you try to fit it to kite.

The Retribution is marginal at best. You gain a small amount of dps at most ranges compared to the Harpy of Doom, but you lose EHP and maximum range, you give up the neut, and your cap situation is pretty bad. You've got ~2 minutes before you run out, but one shot from a neut and you're dead.

End result: if you're going to kite, the only question is why you're stubbornly refusing to fly the Harpy of Doom.


(And yes, cap stability really is that important. The ability to fit MWD/point/cap booster on the Harpy of Doom and STILL have room for a medium extender is one of the things that makes it awesome.)


1/10,
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
#18 - 2012-05-15 17:11:44 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
*snip*


Infact actually after reading your wall of text about the wolf I realise why this fit is so shite.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#19 - 2012-05-15 19:29:51 UTC
Cpt Cosmic wrote:
why are you running mwd for a minute? frigate fights rarely last longer than 20 seconds


Because it's nice to be able to tackle something larger if you have to? Or to enter a fight after a long warp and still have enough cap to win? Or to survive a shot from a neut?

The simple fact is that having bare-minimum cap supply might work a lot of the time, but you're going to lose ships because of that choice.

Quote:
. also the harpy lacks something important for kiting which is speed. what are you doing when something catches your rail fit?


The original setup was designed to prey on idiots who fit newly-boosted ABs on their newly-boosted AFs, so fitting a MWD of any kind was more than enough speed. I'll admit that getting caught is a problem, but that's a problem for any kiting fit, not just this one.

Quote:
also kiting wolf fits artillery not ACs (see below).


You do realize that you have half the EHP of the Harpy of Doom, and your tracking is significantly worse, right? The speed is nice, but not that useful except for running away. You can't orbit that fast without outrunning your own tracking, and "keep at range" kiting wastes any speed in excess of what your target has.

(And the Harpy of Doom easily beats it 1v1, of course.)

Quote:
imho rail ishkur is bettter than rail harpy. rail ishkur can tank well and deploy ecm drones to gtfo if someone catches you. drones and rails hit out to disruptor range and you are not stuck at using kin/therm damage only.


Err, how? I mean, the Ishkur's drones are good, but you aren't going to be doing any meaningful railgun damage at 20km+.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#20 - 2012-05-15 19:35:04 UTC
BearJews wrote:
Why change what you stole from pitbull on baattleclini ? Lose the neut lose the rigs add damages rig and a dcII and a launcher in the tops . Now you have about 150dps(I forgot the name of ammo) still out of scram/web range


Err, no. I have no idea who this person on battleclinic is, but I (AFAIK) was the first person to propose this setup a LONG time ago.

Also, removing the range rigs is just plain stupid. You have to drop to weaker ammo types to reach the same range, which more than offsets the tiny stacking-penalized gain from damage rigs.

Gibbo3771 wrote:
Dont see the point in fitting 75mm failguns on a harpy when it has 7k OPTIMAL 4.2km falloff, 10k ehp and 265dps with null.
You out range everything in scram range besides rocket boats.


Because:

1) Your blaster setup can't fit a medium extender and still get those numbers.

2) Falloff kills it. At the edge of web range (since we don't want to be webbed when trying to kite stuff), you're at 1x falloff, so your damage is down to 130ish. Congratulations, you now do less damage at 12km than the Harpy of Doom does at 24km, and your dps quickly drops off to nothing from there.


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