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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

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PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#181 - 2012-05-14 17:57:39 UTC
Leto Artreides wrote:
Lipbite wrote:
Dedicated 10 drones sub-capital droneboats without hi-slot weapons, please. Light carriers.

Because right now the only ship where I can see this module in low slots without gimping tank into oblivion - it is Rattle. Meanwhile those 25km 400dpstotal torpedoes and Domi's blasters are useless like 80% of time in Caldari missions where 80% of battleship orbit at 35-60km.


They are supposed to gimp your tank, you trade tank for gank, or gank for mobility/range(guns) if you shield tank




Right because everyone knows how slow and range dependent those minmatar and caldari ships are. Roll
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#182 - 2012-05-14 18:19:10 UTC
Wow this module is USELESS lol, i mean seriously just to play around to see if it would be worthwhile to try out on a shield carrier perhaps, the T2 version, even stacking 3 of them together gave a truely crap increase off sentrys it was pathetic really even if dedicated every slot to damage for drones including rigs for sentrys, the damage is just measly ..

PLEASE for the love of god buff this module before it goes to TQ and gets forgotten about. I mean i know Drone citiziens are second rate, i mean we don't even have implants for our drones, and now we get modules that are laughable.
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-05-14 18:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Silly Slot
LaserzPewPew wrote:
Airto TLA wrote:
Um 13-15 sentry drones/ heavy Drones, not 10. So the base damage with one tech II sentry drone rig gets closer to 1k. Set the modifier at 23% like some above were asking for ... then 6 months later add a faction version doing + 28%. Stuff 2-3 (not sure of stack with sentry rigs) of these on and the ship and boom we have 1500+ DPS (sorry about the 2200 number I took it from a post higher up the thread without verifying).

It is not about the standard ship, it is what happens at the extremes and can we have something that suddely disbalances. Yeah anything but the occasional Drone control units are now considered taboo, but when the answer is 1500 DPS with solid range, good tracking that can be switched out for lower but very effective anti -frig or anti cruiser DPS (with 3 extrins at 23% we more than a 50% damage buff) , with a massive tank (even after gimping for the Drone pimping), for the price of a slightly pimped faction BS, you know someone is going to do it. And then more people are going to do it.

You also dismissed my point without addressing the stronger argument in point 2 that the Domi, Gila are considered good and the Ishtar is considered at least adequate in PVE/solo small group PVP and we are in effect buffing all of them. Don't forget it does not take much to go from slightly unerpowered to to FOTM, look how small the buff were to angel ships insolation a while ago they went from basic unflown to the king of the hill.

I am not saying the modules values are set properly for the damage bonuses they may be to low at 12%, we need to see what happens at the extremes as well as the net effect of difficult to fit and minor bump to DPS the Curse gets over a BCS for its two missles, the beauty of Eve is also its biggest problem, flexibility. The issues often arise when someone uses a new rules, module, ship or ammo in an unexpected way. I am pretty sure that at least a few of the people screaming for "moar buffs" have already figured it out and are prepping to abuse it until it is nerfed.


Slightly underpowered? Drone dps is the lowest of the damage types by a blatant margin. On top of that, you yourself misstated 2200 for 1500. You didn't even bring up what happens if you fit a carrier like that. If you stuck 4 drone control units on a carrier with 2 drone damage mods, you SHOULD have 1500 dps with the shortest range/highest damage sentry available. The investments required gimp the tank, neuts, and remote repair possibilities of the carrier in question. Supers were/are overpowered because they gave/give too much overall stats to one specific player regardless of their cost. A carrier does not possess these specifics.

You are afraid of a domi putting on 3 drone damage mods, 3 mag stabs, a full rack of short range blasters, and ogres/gardes? You do know the CPU required to fit that? You actually can't fit a proper tank. On top of that, you are about as effective as a blaster mega. If you aren't aware, blaster megas are terrible.

Your arguments are laden with fear, inaccurate numbers, gross generalizations, and can be described as an absurdity.


EXACTLY,

I hate to say this but even that 1500dps is on the very high side for sentrys, event with 3-4 DCU's and i'm talking packing your lows with Extrinsic II's, you still don't get that high, on SISI i tested it its really sad, onlything i was missing was T2 sentry rigs, but those don't boost that much more than the T1

And also if you do this kind afit your looking at a carrier with NO TANK, i mean seriously when i was testing this damn fit a battleship nearly took me out solo

And yes it seems people are afraid of the "gank" fits, completely forgetting that these gank fits mean that the ships are slow as hell, and will nearly insta-pop to any properly fit decent ship.Especially something like a domi

The FACT is that it makes NO SENSE, that a t2 drone damage mod, gives less DPS, than adding a magstab T2 to the same ship, even though the ships bonuses are to drones not guns... It makes 0 SENSE!
Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#184 - 2012-05-14 18:24:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Siigari Kitawa
Thread is too long, wasn't interested in reading it.


Drone damage augmentors need to be a ***highslot module*** and offer a damage modifier comparable to fitting a GUN in that slot. 25% per slot would be a really nice start. OR I thought up another idea: Have it use a turret slot and then take up an "adaptive" damage role, converting up to 100% damage divided by how many turret slots there are.

So if your boat has 3 turret slots (read: ishkur) you can add 33% damage mod per slot. On a Dominix one module offers 16% damage per slot. Tech 2 versions add 5% additional damage per slot. As far as I know lowslot modules have always been for the core of the ship, not for antenna and additional boosts to external sources.

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Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#185 - 2012-05-14 18:49:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Ok, so you want 'Inferno' to be about shaking things up and kicking existing cookie-cutter setups in the nads.

How about (assuming the server can take the hit)....

…bin this module, give the drone boats a hard-wired bonus to fitting Drone Control Units and add bandwidth per DCU.

I mean it’s not without precedence, we’ve got a number of ship classes that can fit ‘oversized’ modules, it was maybe overpowered when they first came out (yes, DCU's could be fit to sub-caps during intial testing, it was a lot of fun - made drone boats 'properly feel' like drone boats), but the game’s moved on, fittings have moved on – who knows?

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-05-14 19:30:23 UTC
Tankn00blicus wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Also remember that even with mods and rigs, drones (especially heavies) are still significantly slower than missiles
Unless you cough up 3 mid slots for a few DNC II's. Then you have crackwarriors that go 12 km/s, which is fast enough to mess up the drone AI and make it unable to figure out when to shut off the MWD, thereby leaving it unable to hit your target or return to your drone bay and with a huge sig radius. Useful!!111


Not to mention the deadly 120.7 DPS that totally maxed flight of Warrior IIs can do. Horrifyingly scary.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-05-14 20:18:15 UTC
Gabriel Karade wrote:
…bin this module, give the drone boats a hard-wired bonus to fitting Drone Control Units and add bandwidth per DCU.
Nah, don't bin the damage mod (but definitely buff the damage modifier), but subcab DCU's would be good to make it be akin to fitting more or less turrets.
MalVortex
Kaladan Interstellar
#188 - 2012-05-14 21:26:17 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
You know that drones do the same dps between 0 and [max-drone-controle-range] right ? A bit like missiles, but target speed don't reduce the dps (and for heavy drones speed, there is some interesting modules to adress it).

I'm not against more drone damage, but you should be careful with this ; though 12% for T2 and 40Tf is very careful I think, but even then I would take it.


I love posts like this. Yes, lets just ignore all the math about how bad the module is, IMA TAKE IT ANYWAYS EL OH EL. At 12% damage modifier you would gain more DPS on a curse by using BCUs over the EDA. That's like saying an Armageddon would gain more DPS by fitting autocannons than pulse lasers! Absurd!

Even at 15%, any drone boat with guns prefers to fit regular damage mods. Domis won't take 15% EDAs until the 3rd or 4th damage mod. Myrms gain more DPS on gyros w/ D180s than they do on a 2/2/1 thermal split and EDAs. Ishtars and Gilas don't even have the friggen CPU to fit the module, and armor ishtars will never be able to fit it even if CPU weren't an issue.

The only ship that really loves the EDA is the Rattlesnake, because it has the odd combination of tons of CPU and low slot modules, and no weapon system to buff up with them (4x no-DPS bonus torps ~= 200 dps, AKA a flight of Hammerhead IIs).


Of course, you know all this because you read the thread before spouting off your opinion, right? You did all sorts of math and fitting comparisons to back up your argument that a 12% EDA is just fine, right? I mean, it would be pretty awkward if you just assumed the module is fine while failing to read the thread or doing any independent research of your own on the matter...
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2012-05-14 22:10:35 UTC
Unless there is a specific unification here, this module will wind up like the Naga. How people still post that the Naga should have been a missle boat, even long after it was "finalised"? For the EDA I do have a vested interest in this module being High Slot. Time to speak up now, if you feel the same way.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#190 - 2012-05-14 22:12:43 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
For the EDA I do have a vested interest in this module being High Slot. Time to speak up now, if you feel the same way.
No, leave it low slot, add subcap DCU's.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2012-05-15 03:15:47 UTC
Tankn00blicus wrote:
GetSirrus wrote:
For the EDA I do have a vested interest in this module being High Slot. Time to speak up now, if you feel the same way.
No, leave it low slot, add subcap DCU's.

I agree, eda low slot, add sub cap dcu. Even if they still require advanced drone interfacing to use.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#192 - 2012-05-15 08:19:56 UTC
MalVortex wrote:
speaks the thruth


I was happy that CCP finally gave drone ships some love, but unfortunately I don't see me using this module on any of my drone boats.

Giving up a low slot on armor tanked ships for tiny dps increase won't ever be worth it.




.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#193 - 2012-05-15 08:49:07 UTC
First, I may have been misunderstood because of my english speaking skill at only 2 or 3 : 12% may be a bit too low.

Though there is some inconsistancies here : some says that a drone boat (a domi) is often fitted with no gun, only for utilities, and then have its low slot for tank only. Even with 10% damage bonus, you can have a farely good tank, a whole rack of utilities (neut ?), your mids, and 550 dps (quick and dirty calculation) : that is trading a super tank to a standard BS tank for decent dps on neuting ship (550 is equal or better than HAC dps).

About the DNC : of course using 4 DNC to launch warriors is silly, but what if you used heavy drones with these instead ? With only one DNC, BS don't outrun Ogre anymore ; with three of them, Wasp go over 3000m/s ; you don't really need warriors then, and if you are affraid of frigates, fit small guns...

I'm not saying 12% is too much or even enough, I'm just saying you should be careful with balancing things. Of course, considering the *current* state, and the *current* fitting state of art, even 15% is barely enough, but can you say you considered everything that *can* be done with this ?

Drone boat are already useful in current balance state ; giving them a 22% drone damage module *may* become very nasty, or not ; can you prove it's harmless ?
Manar Detri
#194 - 2012-05-15 10:46:06 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
First, I may have been misunderstood because of my english speaking skill at only 2 or 3 : 12% may be a bit too low.

Though there is some inconsistancies here : some says that a drone boat (a domi) is often fitted with no gun, only for utilities, and then have its low slot for tank only. Even with 10% damage bonus, you can have a farely good tank, a whole rack of utilities (neut ?), your mids, and 550 dps (quick and dirty calculation) : that is trading a super tank to a standard BS tank for decent dps on neuting ship (550 is equal or better than HAC dps).

About the DNC : of course using 4 DNC to launch warriors is silly, but what if you used heavy drones with these instead ? With only one DNC, BS don't outrun Ogre anymore ; with three of them, Wasp go over 3000m/s ; you don't really need warriors then, and if you are affraid of frigates, fit small guns...

I'm not saying 12% is too much or even enough, I'm just saying you should be careful with balancing things. Of course, considering the *current* state, and the *current* fitting state of art, even 15% is barely enough, but can you say you considered everything that *can* be done with this ?

Drone boat are already useful in current balance state ; giving them a 22% drone damage module *may* become very nasty, or not ; can you prove it's harmless ?


I don't think you understand the problem in anyway. On a dominix, i'm always better off slapping a magstab rather than a drone dmg mod. It will always yield better dps, and switching alot of tank for small dps increase is useless.

Even with an ishtar, the dmg bonus is damn awful. One magstab gives 43 dps increase to an ishtar with 3 electrons, 1 drone dmg mod gives 71.5 dps increase if using ogre ii's or 57.9 dps increase when using berserker ii's.

What this means is, the ishtar could use the module, but it gets so much more use out of another armor tanking mod (5 low slots) that it's useless.

Only ships that could gain from this module, are the gila and the rattlesnake, and even then, it's still a question wether it's in any way smart.

What we want is same usage out of the mod as other weaponsystems gain from theirs. Otherwise it'll always be a bad idea to use it.

What comes to "fears" of big ships getting hard hitting warriors? Well who in their right mind would every use the module on none drone bonused ship. And if someone does, he'll burn.
Lordess Trader
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#195 - 2012-05-15 12:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lordess Trader
To have an effect on "the stagnant state of fits" CCP needs to start doing some buffing instead of nerfing....

Honestly, why would someone change there awesome domi/ishkur fit, when the reality is these new modules give nothing to us? If i'm in a DRONE BOAT, the DRONE MOD, should be a "hell ya let me fit that" just like if i'm in a pulse laser bonused ship, adding a heat sink is a oh yes please atleast 1.... The drone mod as it sits isn't going to get used... why? Because due to the inherit drawbacks of drones the additional DPS that is outdone by just using a standard non-bonused gun mod, makes it a no-contest...

If CCP isn't planning to buff the DPS to make it even with what a gun mod does (22.5% i believe was the calculation), then you need to come up with some form of creative bonuses to add to the module without nerfing the few other drone mods... Personally i still dont see why not just to make the drone mod the same as a gun mod (taking ROF+DMG and making it straight damage at 22.5 or whatever the % is that it works out to with the stacking equation for rof+dmg)

For those worrying about people putting this even with the full damage suggested to non drone-boats... WTF would anyone do that lol, on a turret bonused ship the % given to turrets by a turret dmg mod, will always give more than the drone mod even in a buff form... And theres only so many lows slots the turret guys get to deal with anyway, when they have to fit tracking + dmg mods in the lows and sometimes tank.

Please CCP review this mod
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-05-15 12:45:03 UTC
They already stated it is not possible to increase the rof of drones due to how they are designed, in there current state they would be fine if we had a sub cap dcu, if not then they should be buffed to around 22% to keep up with other damage mods. But 22% would look like a huge damage buff, and other weapon users would complain that they only get 10%. Most hard core drone users would like drones to be a full weapon system, to do this, again, we need sub cap dcu. On a side note as far as Gallente weapons go, if drones are not supposed to be a full weapon system, and Gallente is supposed to be a hybrid race, then why does the Gallente offensive system skill require drones v and gunnery III?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Melina Lin
Universal Frog
#197 - 2012-05-15 13:02:09 UTC
New Stats on Sisi.

T1: 27 CPU 15% Damage
T2: 32 CPU 19% Damage
Stealthshot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-05-15 13:23:58 UTC
Now we are getting somewhere. 15% and 19% is going to make Gilas and Rattlesnakes a lot more dangerous.

The Bpcs for these should really drop from sentient's in the drone regions they need a 'faction' module to go with the horrible 'improved and augmented' drones they can get out there.
Hosedna
FumbleFamily Corp
#199 - 2012-05-15 14:48:53 UTC
If only it could be a high slot module... even at the price of a turret slot, then it would be usable. Sparing a low-slot on gallente drone boats (Gallente are supposed to be the best drones users, aren't they ?), is pretty hard, not to say almost impossible on some ships if you wan't to keep a decent tank =(

And drone DPS are caped pretty low in comparison with the other weapons systems, and won't really be a main weapon system unless they can rival with the others. So, symetry being uneeded, I rally don't see why it couldn't be a high slot mod !
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#200 - 2012-05-15 15:12:12 UTC
Yes, yes, yes

Long awaited drone Proteus buff inboundSmile

575 dps Ogres + 225 blasters with no fitting issues and good tanking capability. Add one omni and navcom and your drones have solid tracking and speed ( Ogres - 1700m/s ). Sentry Proteus may also become viable after this.

Let's just hope that drone users will be getting some more love from now on.