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Escort Carriers

Author
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#21 - 2012-05-14 19:31:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
I am for fighters.

No ship maint bays. I have no complaints with a corp hanger tho.

But I have not yet made up my mind about this perceived faggotry of capital remote repping modules...

I was of the mind if we wanted a demi-carrier for hi-sec/escort use, then we shouldnt make it a repping boat at all. Thus, allow it to use large reppers but dont give it RR bonuses at all.




I will probably write up all my thoughts on this when i feel like it. Might be a few posts.


But looking much.. much better than your first topic.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#22 - 2012-05-14 19:45:04 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:

Why no fighters? I have yet to hear a really compelling argument against them so long as they cannot be used in high sec.


I gave you a reason: the only benefit to having them would be assigning them and having them chase targets around a system (this is what fighters can do). And this is not something the ship should be able to do. It would mean that it can be safe somewhere at a POS or safespot assigning fighters.

So if you agree that that ability should not be allowed, then there is no purpose to having fighters at all.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-05-14 19:47:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Loius Woo wrote:

Why no fighters? I have yet to hear a really compelling argument against them so long as they cannot be used in high sec.


I gave you a reason: the only benefit to having them would be assigning them and having them chase targets around a system (this is what fighters can do). And this is not something the ship should be able to do. It would mean that it can be safe somewhere at a POS or safespot assigning fighters.

So if you agree that that ability should not be allowed, then there is no purpose to having fighters at all.



Why shouldn't it?

Please explain how Escort carriers doing something that carriers do now but with less effectiveness is a bad thing.

I agreed in my previous thread that fighters being able to do that IN HIGH SEC would be bad.

Not that using fighters in that manner at all would be bad.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#24 - 2012-05-14 20:16:26 UTC
I thought the idea of it was that its a "roaming" ship. Being able to idle in a POS and assign fighters simply makes it a cheaper carrier.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-05-14 20:18:53 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
I thought the idea of it was that its a "roaming" ship. Being able to idle in a POS and assign fighters simply makes it a cheaper carrier.


If you are idling in a POS then you are doing what a carrier can do better and not using any of your other benefits... So that means you would be doing it wrong.

as has been mentioned, 5 fighters is not a lot of damage anyway so its not like you would ruin the game by sitting this ship in a POS.

But, it is much better being in the middle of the BS gang as you roam.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#26 - 2012-05-14 20:21:07 UTC
You're missing the point. The ship should have to be in combat on the field to be the support ship you want it to be. This no risk habitual crap in Eve needs to stop, not be encouraged.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-05-14 20:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Asuka Solo wrote:

No ship maint bays. I have no complaints with a corp hanger tho.

But I have not yet made up my mind about this perceived faggotry of capital remote repping modules...

I was of the mind if we wanted a demi-carrier for hi-sec/escort use, then we shouldnt make it a repping boat at all. Thus, allow it to use large reppers but dont give it RR bonuses at all.



But looking much.. much better than your first topic.


Thank you for the compliment.

As for your concerns,
Maintenance bays was a capitulation to the Wormhole crowd who want this to be a support ship for WHs that cannot fit full carriers in them. They are still pretty small. Either way, I am not sold on the maintenance bay. The Corp hanger is pretty needed IMO though.

Capital Reppers with no bonus to range or amount worked out better in the balancing of the capacitor and cap recharge than large reppers did. The issue is trying to give the ship a good sized rep amount without stepping on the toes of the Logistics ships and still giving enough Capacitor to run Xlarge self repair modules. With large reppers it was hard to do without being capstable using 5 large reppers if one was not using self repair. So, with the balance as it is, it can do capital repair at shortish range running 4 modules concurrently for about a minute before cap is an issue. And in case you didn't notice, there are no capital cap transfers on them, so you need more logistics train to keep cap stable.

In summary, capital reppers with a bonus to cap makes it less OP capacitor wise than large reppers with a bonus to rep amount.

To be useful in gangs it needs to do more than just pathetic DPS, as a stepping stone to carrier gameplay, the logistics made sense. Other ways of making them "support" would be doable, but would make less sense IMO.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-05-14 20:25:52 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
You're missing the point. The ship should have to be in combat on the field to be the support ship you want it to be. This no risk habitual crap in Eve needs to stop, not be encouraged.


I would argue that that is a problem with fighter mechanics, not a reason to not allow fighters at all.

And to use it properly, it would need to be in the fight. Otherwise it is providing really low DPS at the expense of 150mil worth of fighters...pretty dumb IMO.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#29 - 2012-05-14 20:34:36 UTC
Remind me again why you want fighters on this thing so badly?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-05-14 20:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Loius Woo
Loius Woo wrote:
Fighters are what make these Escort Carriers and not Drone Battleships. They have less than half as many as Carriers, they don't have jump drives, they have 25% the corp hanger/ship maintenance bay, no ability to fit command modules, and don't get any of the other carrier bonuses. So I don't think these are stealing anything from carriers.


This is why, once again. I am not the only one that likes fighters for them.

It makes them more than a Domi, and they are still less than a carrier.

Carriers have 10+ fighters and a jump drive and 10X the tank, plus triage.

Supers have Fighters, Bombers, jump drive, can't dock and like 100X the tank.

Neither can use gates.

Drone BS's can use drones, have BS tank, some have drone bonuses, they can use Large remote rep modules, they can use gates. They can only use 5 drones at a time.

So, Escort Carriers (EC) niche breakdown vs Logistics, Battleships, Carriers and Supers.
Tank
BS is less than EC which are much less than Carriers which are much less than Supers

Drone/Fighters
BS less than EC much less than Carrier much less than Super

Logistics
BS less than Logi Cruiser less than or equal to EC less than Carrier less than Super

Mobility
Logi Cruiser much greater than BS greater than EC much greater than Carrier greater than Super

DPS
Logi Cruiser much less than EC equal to BS less than Carrier less than Super

I could give a more detailed breakdown with the appropriate ratios for each, but just relative position should work to explain where EC's fit in in the larger rubric of Eve Ships.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#31 - 2012-05-14 21:00:32 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Loius Woo wrote:

Why no fighters? I have yet to hear a really compelling argument against them so long as they cannot be used in high sec.


I gave you a reason: the only benefit to having them would be assigning them and having them chase targets around a system (this is what fighters can do). And this is not something the ship should be able to do. It would mean that it can be safe somewhere at a POS or safespot assigning fighters.

So if you agree that that ability should not be allowed, then there is no purpose to having fighters at all.


Have you ever assigned fighters and safed up under a POS shield?

have you really?

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-05-14 21:01:08 UTC
[quote=Loius Woo]As for your concerns,
Maintenance bays was a capitulation to the Wormhole crowd who want this to be a support ship for WHs that cannot fit full carriers in them. They are still pretty small. Either way, I am not sold on the maintenance bay. The Corp hanger is pretty needed IMO though. [quote]
Why do you need a corp hangar? get an orca?
A wh may not be able to have a carrier enter or leave, but you can build a carrier inside them
You can also get an Orca in, and have your maintenance bay and corp hangar. What you don't have are fighters and a capital logi.
Orca+Fighters+Logi capability= carrier-lite
The only time carriers are on the field is for logi purposes. If you're not sold on that, then there is no reason to have a carrier on the field, its better off sitting elsewhere and assigning fighters.
If you want fighters, and want the ship to actually be on the field, you need a new class of fighter that can't leave the grid of the controlling light carrier. Perhaps they can still follow the carrier in warp so you don't have to recall them all the time.

We already have logi boats, we don't need a bigger logi boat in high sec.

I want to see a battle carrier that can make its rounds in low sec, using jump gates.
None of the off grid assigning fighter gayness, none of the super logi gayness.

Just a ship that does damage through smaller craft, that put out significantly more DPS than a Domi's drones can.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-05-14 21:18:55 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
[quote=Loius Woo]As for your concerns,
Maintenance bays was a capitulation to the Wormhole crowd who want this to be a support ship for WHs that cannot fit full carriers in them. They are still pretty small. Either way, I am not sold on the maintenance bay. The Corp hanger is pretty needed IMO though. [quote]
Why do you need a corp hangar? get an orca?
A wh may not be able to have a carrier enter or leave, but you can build a carrier inside them
You can also get an Orca in, and have your maintenance bay and corp hangar. What you don't have are fighters and a capital logi.
Orca+Fighters+Logi capability= carrier-lite
The only time carriers are on the field is for logi purposes. If you're not sold on that, then there is no reason to have a carrier on the field, its better off sitting elsewhere and assigning fighters.
If you want fighters, and want the ship to actually be on the field, you need a new class of fighter that can't leave the grid of the controlling light carrier. Perhaps they can still follow the carrier in warp so you don't have to recall them all the time.

We already have logi boats, we don't need a bigger logi boat in high sec.

I want to see a battle carrier that can make its rounds in low sec, using jump gates.
None of the off grid assigning fighter gayness, none of the super logi gayness.

Just a ship that does damage through smaller craft, that put out significantly more DPS than a Domi's drones can.


This!!
Lin Gerie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-05-14 22:04:37 UTC
I know you are adament on adding fighters but they are not needed if you are going to have a ship bay. Give a large bonus to flying regular drones as well as a bonus reducing the cost of drone modules installed on the ship. Give them a bonus to both repair range and perhaps even amount.

Since they cant field fighters the bonuses would help make up for the lack of damage output. Furthermore when you leave out fighters it allows for light escort carriers as well which could have a light or medium drone focus where as the heavy escort carrier which you mention here could have bonuses for all drones.

The ship bay already gives you fighter support in the form of frigates/destroyers or even cruisers depending on if its a light or heavy escort carrier.

So basically:
remove fighters
add a range bonus to logi modules
add bonus to drone hitpoints damage ect

With this design you can have a heavy escort cruiser (larger then a BS like what youve proposed) as well as a light escort carrier which would be more the size of a BC and only receive bonuses for light and medium drones and have a slightly smaller ship bay.

In addition the drone bays on these ships would only allow for 1 full reload of drones. This will limit the options but also allow for them to be more focused allowing each faction to claim a specific role based on bonuses. Gallente for instance would be more focused on drones all around, so their ships would have a greater bonus to drone hp/damage ect where as caldari would get a larger bonus for shield transfer ect.
This will mean that a mix of escort carriers will do more then a fleet of one races escort carrier.
Im Super Gay
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#35 - 2012-05-14 23:01:27 UTC
Logi spam is annoying and very powerful as is, the only thing keeping the logi spam from being op is their cruiser sized buffer. Now if you give players a BS sized dedicated logi ship that has more buffer and more remote repping power, you've created the latest ship that every subcap fleet will use and abuse because you've fixed the only flaw of logis and gave it little drawbacks.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-05-15 00:27:03 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
If you want fighters, and want the ship to actually be on the field, you need a new class of fighter that can't leave the grid of the controlling light carrier. Perhaps they can still follow the carrier in warp so you don't have to recall them all the time.


What you propose is a fix for fighter mechanics in general and not within the scope of this discussion.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
We already have logi boats, we don't need a bigger logi boat in high sec.

I have stated numerous times how this is DIFFERENT from logistics cruisers and why that is important.

These ships are intended to provide MORE reps at SHORTER range for BURSTS of time with LITTLE mobility. Logistics Cruisers provide LESS reps at LONG range for LONG duration with HIGH mobility. So these fill a completely different role.

Verity Sovereign wrote:
I want to see a battle carrier that can make its rounds in low sec, using jump gates.
None of the off grid assigning fighter gayness, none of the super logi gayness.

Just a ship that does damage through smaller craft, that put out significantly more DPS than a Domi's drones can.


So you want a high DPS battle carrier with none of the other "gayness" play styles like support? Got it. Perhaps you should start for own thread with those ideas and see how they float.
Liliana Rahl
Remote Soviet Industries
Insidious Empire
#37 - 2012-05-15 00:28:42 UTC
Fighter mechanics don't need a change. They work fine as they are currently implemented.

This ship does not need fighters. Simple as that. If you really want fighters, get a carrier or supercarrier.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-05-15 00:31:01 UTC
Liliana Rahl wrote:
Fighter mechanics don't need a change. They work fine as they are currently implemented.

This ship does not need fighters. Simple as that. If you really want fighters, get a carrier or supercarrier.


Very well, your opinion is noted that you feel fighters belong only on capital class vessels.

I appreciate your input.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-05-15 00:33:40 UTC
Im Super Gay wrote:
Logi spam is annoying and very powerful as is, the only thing keeping the logi spam from being op is their cruiser sized buffer. Now if you give players a BS sized dedicated logi ship that has more buffer and more remote repping power, you've created the latest ship that every subcap fleet will use and abuse because you've fixed the only flaw of logis and gave it little drawbacks.


Drawbacks:
Slow ship
Short logistics range
NOT cap stable any way you slice it (about a minute with 4 reps on, less with self rep)
Cannot fit similar sized cap transfers

So you see, it has drawbacks. It fills a totally separate support role than that of the logistics cruiser. I know, I fly logistics almost exclusively. There is room here for more than one class of ship without breaking the game.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2012-05-15 00:37:25 UTC
Lin Gerie wrote:
I know you are adament on adding fighters but they are not needed if you are going to have a ship bay. Give a large bonus to flying regular drones as well as a bonus reducing the cost of drone modules installed on the ship. Give them a bonus to both repair range and perhaps even amount.

Since they cant field fighters the bonuses would help make up for the lack of damage output. Furthermore when you leave out fighters it allows for light escort carriers as well which could have a light or medium drone focus where as the heavy escort carrier which you mention here could have bonuses for all drones.

The ship bay already gives you fighter support in the form of frigates/destroyers or even cruisers depending on if its a light or heavy escort carrier.

So basically:
remove fighters
add a range bonus to logi modules
add bonus to drone hitpoints damage ect

With this design you can have a heavy escort cruiser (larger then a BS like what youve proposed) as well as a light escort carrier which would be more the size of a BC and only receive bonuses for light and medium drones and have a slightly smaller ship bay.

In addition the drone bays on these ships would only allow for 1 full reload of drones. This will limit the options but also allow for them to be more focused allowing each faction to claim a specific role based on bonuses. Gallente for instance would be more focused on drones all around, so their ships would have a greater bonus to drone hp/damage ect where as caldari would get a larger bonus for shield transfer ect.
This will mean that a mix of escort carriers will do more then a fleet of one races escort carrier.


It sounds like what you are talking about is a dedicated drone ship with two sizes (BS and BC).

This is NOT intended to be a dedicated drone ship, but an Escort Carrier, for all the reasons stated before. I get that people want a drone boat, but I think that is a very different niche than this ship.

Also, a ship bay doesn't give you fighters. They are totally different mechanics and totally different impacts on a fight.

And, giving them a bonus to logistics range and amount is exactly what Logistics Cruisers get and again, different niche.