EVE General Discussion

EVE is essentially an evolution simulator. Those that can't adapt will perish and those that can will thrive. This is why many people love EVE.

Hi-sec miners are a threat to this idea. Rather than adapting to new situations they simply try to lobby CCP to change the game in their favor. This is proven to be true. If you tell a hi-sec carebear a way to avoid being suicide ganked they will almost always ignore it or try to explain why it doesn't work, which is usually incorrect.

Here are two examples.

Example 1: Hulkageddon is announced and the news spreads like wild fire through EVE. Rather than taking a break from mining or mining in ships that can't be suicide ganked as easily, the hi-sec miner simply keeps mining and cries when they get blown up. Rather than learning to head the warnings and change their ways, they continue to do the same thing and wonder why they get the same result.

Example 2: A Tornado, an infamous ship due to it's use for suicide ganking appears in the belt. Rather than immediately warping to a safe spot the miners keep doing what they are doing and complain when the inevitable happens.

So...if 100% hi sec players are a minority, what's the big deal....I can't help but think the geniuses wanting to mess with high sec are just slavering for victims to gank. If you're so tough out there in LO and O, gank each other. Get a backbone.

Can you please show me where it states that "Universal, omnipresent, non-consensual PVP" is a stated "core design feature" of the game?

It may, or may not be, and I may be mistaken but I was under the impression the "core design feature" of the game was "Sandbox." In which case, "universal, omnipresent, non-consensual PVP" may be a part of that sandbox but that doesn't define it as a core design feature.

The case could be made for, or against, depending on who you ask as to what the core design features of this game are. I'd be wiling to bet most people would argue that the part of the game they partake of the most is a "core design feature."

Did we see the same fanfest? According to the metrics given, the majority of players do indeed live in hisec space. They even said if you account for the people who were just "traveling through" or shopping at the times the metrics were taken, the majority were still hisec dwellers.

If that weren't true they wouldn't have also mentioned their desire to get more people experiencing low/null sec, because they'd already be there.

The existence of a feature does not necessitate it being the core design principle of the game. The very nature of it being a sandbox precludes any one element of the game from being the overriding "core" feature. PVP *can* happen everywhere, at any time, but that doesn't mean it's the quintessential mode of gameplay.

As for the anti-hisec sentiments, I couldn't have said it better myself when you mentioned supply and demand. The "war against hisec miners" is absolutely ridiculous and only self defeating in the end. However it seems the majority of those supporting the efforts against hisec haven't the capacity to understand the concept of supply and demand that you speak of.

Say for the sake of argument the "war" is won, and hisec is radically changed to satisfy their petulant goals. They'll be the same people who come stampeding to the forums whining that CCP does something because now the cost of their pretty little ships and guns has skyrocketed. To which I hope they're told, "You made the bed, now lie in it."

Like, uh, Local?

Of course not, otherwise you might be mistaken, even wrong.

That must be avoided. Must engage in re-definition.

Local is core. You're wrong. Happy days. ;)

Hmm, I'm still not sure about the true occupancy of hi-sec, though I'd still wager it has the majority. As a matter of record, my initial source for stating hi-sec has the majority is from this video, from FanFest 2012 (Linked directly to relevant section of the video):

FanFest 2012 - State of the Economy

I do agree with The Sardukar's comments regarding the actual total number of full time hi-sec dwellers. The Sardukar did also make one important distinction, in the supposition that the hi-sec players on these forums are a minority. On that point I'm sure there's no doubt. Still though, the presence of a group on the forums doesn't necessarily correlate to that same group's presence in game.

Regarding the PVP issue, I must admit I hadn't really considered it from that perspective before. Which is rather stupid of me, considering I focus on the trade aspect of EVE which is just another form of PVP in a sense. Granted it's more spreadsheet warfare than lazers, but warfare nonetheless.

So I guess we are in agreement after all regarding your perspective on the omnipresence of PVP in EVE, and it's function as a core design feature of the game.

I understand that hi-sec miners aren't he only suppliers. However, with the recent change regarding alloys, they were made a more important source than they might have been historically. I would be interested to see the metrics on where the majority of the minerals in the game are harvested. Do you know of any such graphs? I would, perhaps foolishly, assume that hi-sec miners do account for the majority of it. If that's the case then I stand by the statement that declaring war on them is ultimately self defeating.

This whole "war on hi-sec mining" business does leave me with some questions.

What exactly is the goal? What are the proposed changes to hi-sec, and/or, mining that people are saying need to happen? Where does it go from here?

All of this reminds me a lot of the "Occupy Movement." We have a collective of people gathered together, but lack a common voice or set of goals (Insofar as I know, as it relates to hi-sec mining). I seem to notice that the answers to those questions changes depending upon who you ask.

Quoting for emphasis. The stats show that the majority of characters live in hisec, and a disproportionally large number of them live in Jita 4-4. At one point there was a figure of 2.3 characters per player: which leads me to think that for every null sec or low sec character there are on average two characters owned by the same player living in hisec.

You (dear thread reader) will forgive me for not having a quote on hand, but CCP devs have stated on multiple occasions that EVE Online was inspired by both Ultima Online (pre-Tremmel) and Magic: The Gathering. They wanted a world which was all PvP all the time, with players fitting their character (well, ship) the same way you'd assemble a Magic deck for a fight.

I just don't understand the hate against High Sec mining. They are the reason ships used to be so cheap. They happily combed the belts of their minerals and sold them off or built the nice ships people use to blow each other up. Now that we've screwed them over so much that they don't mine as much any more the prices for those nice ships to blow each other up in are double. So they just means people have to rat or mission or incursion or plex or whatever they do to make isk a lot more to be able to afford to PVP. We should just leave them alone and let them mine away and drive prices down so there can be cheaper pew pew for those inclined to do it. Oh wait the Goons have tons of isk from the horrible imbalanced tech moons...

Hehe, well played sir, well played.

Eh, I'm a high-sec miner. Then again, I'm only a month into this game and learning the ropes. Of course I'm going to mine for my ISK! And shoot, learning the basics of the economy isn't all that hard, I've figured it out. And I still continue to learn every day.

Can flipping is a risk, but I don't let it bother me. I find it the cost of doing business.