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New dev blog: War, Modules & Super Friends

First post
Author
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#61 - 2012-05-14 15:40:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Daneel Trevize
darmwand wrote:
Daneel Trevize wrote:
I tried to make a rails Brutix/Astarte/Deimos to hit at long point range, even edge of web range, isn't viable.


Have you tried longer-range ammo?
Yes, I was using a range of ammo, so Jav & AM for close range, iirc 2 mid-range options for the different tackle optimals, and possibly some spike just in case. Feel free to plot them using any ammo vs arties, beams or Scorch-using Pulses. They cannot compete.

I forgot, that's with at least 1 tracking enhancer for optimal, falloff & tracking. On hulls with bonuses to falloff (that which rails have more of for ~half of all in-tackle-range ammo choices). And 2 hybrid damage bonuses + mag stab + dps rig. Something like:
Quote:
[Deimos, Rivals the Zealot?! a speed link]

Dual 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M
Dual 150mm Railgun II, Federation Navy Thorium Charge M

Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Armor Explosive Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Tracking Enhancer II
Medium Armor Repairer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator II


Valkyrie II x5
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2012-05-14 15:42:27 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
You didn't mention Small Targeting Amplifier I. Will they be released on may 22th, are they just postponed like missile TDs / MJD, or completely off the drawing board already?


We tested this a bit and didn't feel it added a lot of value, so it's shelved for the time being.
darmwand
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#63 - 2012-05-14 15:43:02 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Larger railguns are technically good (low damage, extreme range) but suffer from the fact that their range is so extreme that enemies can just warp right to them. Anything operating at higher than ~120 km range is very vulnerable since the minimum warp-in range is 150 km. A 200 km Eagle sniping gang is useless if all it takes to counter them is a single scanning ship and 20 seconds. Increase minimum warp range to 300 km. Boom, railguns fixed.


Ah, interesting point, hadn't thought of that.

"The pen is mightier than the sword if the sword is very short, and the pen is very sharp."

CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#64 - 2012-05-14 15:43:07 UTC
Castor II wrote:
Quote:
The Extrinsic Damage Amplifier, the CPU rig and the web drones will be seeded directly on market. Also note that to get the T2 drone damage module, you need to invent it using T1 BPCs.


This means you'll be seeding their BPO's right?


Yes, BPOs
Callic Veratar
#65 - 2012-05-14 15:44:12 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:


Not at this point. We do anticipate alt bloating, but as it is a one-time thing, and limits some alt behavior, we don't consider it a huge issue. Beside, the rise in cost only starts applying at the 130 member range or thereabouts.


Why are you placing a low estimate on the lengths to which players will go for a competitive advantage? What?


Here's the flaw in your logic. The wardec mechanics go out unchanged, so people start making tons of alts; some even buying PLEX to make 3 pilots on a trial. After spending several billion to pad their numbers, inactive accounts are removed from the wardec cost. Benefit for CCP as more people buy PLEX.
Foolish Bob
E-MORage
#66 - 2012-05-14 15:44:58 UTC
perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't this multiplier make it excessively easy to make large alliances immune to wardecs by small entities?

Let's say I've got an alliance of 3k people --> 320M per week war cost
We'll pretend there's 4 weeks in a month and say that this means 1.28B per month cost

In my alliance of 3k, I find 4 people to make 1 man corps
All corps then declare war on my alliance, and I pay the bills.

By my count then that's 4 people all having to pay 5 B (give or take) per month, so a cost to my alliance of some 20B per month. Then, if anyone else wants to wardec me, they have to now pay 6.4B per month for the honour (1.6B per week). Ok, sure other big alliances can do this and try and suppress my actions, but I only need to drop wars as needed to maintain the shield at the level I desire. Anyone small on the other hand would be completely shut out from being able to declare war on me, and for the most part all of this should be pocket change for my alliance.

Unless, like I said, I missed something.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2012-05-14 15:45:50 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
War dec costs multiply if you declare more than one. But what if you get multiple decs by having corps join your alliance? That is:

5 small corps each make one war dec. Those 5 corps then join one alliance. Everyone in the alliance now gets 5 sets of targets and they did not have to pay the multiplied costs.

CCP, is that how it works?

If so, you may want to consider fixing it. For example:

A corp that has declared war cannot join an alliance until said war is over.

Or (and better in my option, as it leaves control in the player's hands):

If your corp has declared war and joins an alliance that has declared war, there is a joining fee: You got to pay the extra costs as though the alliance had declared two wars.

Edit: Other questions:

I dec once: 50 mil.
I dec another, 100 mil for #2. But does that also increase the cost of #1 to 100 mil? Does it increase it immediately, or for the second week, or not at all?


You can't join an alliance if you're an aggressor in a war.

The war cost multiplier will apply to all your wars equally, but only when a new bill comes up.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-05-14 15:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Callic Veratar wrote:
Here's the flaw in your logic. The wardec mechanics go out unchanged, so people start making tons of alts; some even buying PLEX to make 3 pilots on a trial. After spending several billion to pad their numbers, inactive accounts are removed from the wardec cost. Benefit for CCP as more people buy PLEX.


It's not as though the person initiating this scheme would not get something in return; the players involved still get an additional month of game time added to their regular player account(s) for engaging in alt generation fraud.
Hashi Lebwohl
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#69 - 2012-05-14 15:46:23 UTC
ECM burst, is a poorly designed, and therefore under-utilised, module. Why did you not simply iterate upon this module rather than make it wholly superfluous?
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#70 - 2012-05-14 15:47:36 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
I'd say that 10B is a reasonable price to allow you to start gaming the system.

My corp was probably a bad example as we are small enough that we are in the 50 mil plateau. Some sample numbers of people gaming the system without extra accounts, and only dedicating one character slot to the gaming:


  • 200 members (67 mil) -> 400 members (104 mil)
  • 400 members (104 mil) -> 800 members (150 mil)
  • 2000 members (258 mil, Eve Uni size) -> 4000 members (371 mil)
  • 8900 members (554 mil, Goonswarm size) -> 17800 members (774 mil)


The possible abuse gets more and more egregious with larger corp size. I do not expect Goonswarm to do this (they typically do not give enough fucks) but E-Uni, RvB, and other hisec/lowsec entities will. This will lead to artificially inflated membership counts, obnoxious "my corp is safer than yours because it's bigger" peen-waving, some corps requiring mandatory alt joining, and other nasties. My question to CCP SoniClover is whether this is intended and expected, or whether it's going to be addressed.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Callic Veratar
#71 - 2012-05-14 15:47:47 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
I'd say that 10B is a reasonable price to allow you to start gaming the system.


So since they're 20 billion each, we can go back to the old balance state for super capitals, right?


Reductio ad absurdum is unbecoming.
VagabondAlt
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2012-05-14 15:48:03 UTC
Are the module bpcs for the non-seeded mods racial, or will they drop from all mag/radar sites?
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2012-05-14 15:48:08 UTC
Foolish Bob wrote:
perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't this multiplier make it excessively easy to make large alliances immune to wardecs by small entities?

Let's say I've got an alliance of 3k people --> 320M per week war cost
We'll pretend there's 4 weeks in a month and say that this means 1.28B per month cost

In my alliance of 3k, I find 4 people to make 1 man corps
All corps then declare war on my alliance, and I pay the bills.

By my count then that's 4 people all having to pay 5 B (give or take) per month, so a cost to my alliance of some 20B per month. Then, if anyone else wants to wardec me, they have to now pay 6.4B per month for the honour (1.6B per week). Ok, sure other big alliances can do this and try and suppress my actions, but I only need to drop wars as needed to maintain the shield at the level I desire. Anyone small on the other hand would be completely shut out from being able to declare war on me, and for the most part all of this should be pocket change for my alliance.

Unless, like I said, I missed something.


The war multiplier only applies the number of wars you have declared, the number of wars the target is in does not affect the cost.
CCP SoniClover
C C P
C C P Alliance
#74 - 2012-05-14 15:48:39 UTC
VagabondAlt wrote:
Are the module bpcs for the non-seeded mods racial, or will they drop from all mag/radar sites?


They'll drop from all.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#75 - 2012-05-14 15:49:22 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The war cost multiplier will apply to all your wars equally, but only when a new bill comes up.

What's the logic behind this multiplier? Why should it be so much more expensive to go to war with 2 100 man corps than a single 200 man corp?

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#76 - 2012-05-14 15:50:00 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
I'd say that 10B is a reasonable price to allow you to start gaming the system.


So since they're 20 billion each, we can go back to the old balance state for super capitals, right?


Reductio ad absurdum is unbecoming.


It's usually a pretty good technique for pointing out poor arguments; perceived expense is not what I would consider a good justification for this kind of meta-gaming.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#77 - 2012-05-14 15:52:04 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The war cost multiplier will apply to all your wars equally, but only when a new bill comes up.

What's the logic behind this multiplier? Why should it be so much more expensive to go to war with 2 100 man corps than a single 200 man corp?


You're bribing Concord to ignore you attacking Blink 2 names is harder for them to remember than 1

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#78 - 2012-05-14 15:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
Congratulations CCP SoniClover, you official encoded favoritism into a game mechanic. Not that I have a problem with larger Corps having the in game advantage of more manpower, more money, more ships, and a bigger brian trust than smaller corps, that's the game. But it's the extra concord protection you just gave them in the form of escalating war cost that steps outside of player created benefits, and regardless of what you think, screams favoritism.

And the worst part is how you justify it by painting all large entities as passive victims that don't shoot back (I hate to break this to you but many small corps are taking a "risk" as it is declaring war on large ones), and declaring that since small corp grieving doesn't occur now, putting in a huge finical incentive to do so is not a problem.

You know at this point I'd say just give Eve Uni the damn war exception NPC corps have, and treat the rest of the players corps the same!
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#79 - 2012-05-14 15:52:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Thunk
Jack Dant wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The war cost multiplier will apply to all your wars equally, but only when a new bill comes up.

What's the logic behind this multiplier? Why should it be so much more expensive to go to war with 2 100 man corps than a single 200 man corp?


It's a relic from the Privateers 'fix'. It's not needed at all anymore and follows no logic.
Steijn
Quay Industries
#80 - 2012-05-14 15:54:10 UTC
Hmm, so previously missiles etc get renamed so as to avoid confusion and bring clarity/everything onto the same page as it where, and yet you are now releasing new modules which are not on the same page eg. some on the market and some only via dropped BPCs.

Dont you think after your previous changes your new implementation is rather, er, contradictory and to put it bluntly, stupid?