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Shouldn't the semi-finalists of AT9 get automatically be qualified for AT10?

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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#1 - 2012-05-11 21:49:24 UTC
I'm just wondering why alliances that ended with the best 4 last year, still have to take part in the random draw or the bidding process.

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Matze reloaded
FC Retirement Fund
#2 - 2012-05-12 10:30:06 UTC
The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney.
Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#3 - 2012-05-12 12:10:28 UTC
Matze reloaded wrote:
The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney.
Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.


We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#4 - 2012-05-12 12:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Faffywaffy
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Matze reloaded wrote:
The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney.
Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.


We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.


Ah, here comes the strawman. Nobody said anything about a free ride to the finals. We would gladly play in the pre-qualifiers like everyone else. Nobody said it was unfair, either. We're just saying it's stupid that we don't have a guaranteed entrance into the tournament.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#5 - 2012-05-12 13:16:51 UTC
Faffywaffy wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Matze reloaded wrote:
The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney.
Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.


We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.


Ah, here comes the strawman. Nobody said anything about a free ride to the finals. We would gladly play in the pre-qualifiers like everyone else. Nobody said it was unfair, either. We're just saying it's stupid that we don't have a guaranteed entrance into the tournament.


Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid. I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule.

I'm sure we'll have a discussion about it again next year dependent on how things go.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#6 - 2012-05-12 13:50:56 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid.

Ah, yes, I missed that. Apologies.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule.

Hmm, so which of the 4 alliances that were given guaranteed entry last year didn't deliver quality matches? DarkSide, Voltron, PL or Hydra?

Obviously nothing guarantees quality matches, but (potentially) excluding top alliances from the last tournament definitely doesn't contribute towards that goal.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#7 - 2012-05-12 14:01:10 UTC
Faffywaffy wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid.

Ah, yes, I missed that. Apologies.


CCP Sreegs wrote:
I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule.

Hmm, so which of the 4 alliances that were given guaranteed entry last year didn't deliver quality matches? DarkSide, Voltron, PL or Hydra?

Obviously nothing guarantees quality matches, but (potentially) excluding top alliances from the last tournament definitely doesn't contribute towards that goal.


The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#8 - 2012-05-12 15:11:46 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year.

Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry).

Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#9 - 2012-05-12 15:52:10 UTC
Faffywaffy wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year.

Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry).

Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame.


if you say so

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
james1122
Perimeter Trade and Distribution Inc
#10 - 2012-05-12 17:19:54 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Faffywaffy wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year.

Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry).

Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame.


if you say so


Lol.

From the sound of things they aren't trying to actively punish Hydra, they just don't want to further reward them for producing such an awful final.
Also your argument (faffywaffy, not skreegs) is flawed on so many levels I don't even know where to begin >.<

Have to say I agree with CCP on this one.

....
Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch
Evasive Maneuvering.
#11 - 2012-05-12 21:28:43 UTC
james1122 wrote:
From the sound of things they aren't trying to actively punish Hydra, they just don't want to further reward them for producing such an awful final.

But they are rewarding them instead, by potentially eliminating some of their strongest opponents from the tournament altogether. Do you honestly think that Hydra/Outbreak, given their prizes from last year, would have trouble getting a spot in the auction? Do you think they would blink at spending 50bil (=one Vangel/Malice)?

Or, if they feel particularly evil, they can buy spots in the lottery/auction by giving isk to some random newb alliances that don't really stand a chance. In fact, anyone with enough isk could do that.

james1122 wrote:

Also your argument (faffywaffy, not skreegs) is flawed on so many levels I don't even know where to begin >.<

Please do begin.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-05-13 07:42:05 UTC
Oh dear. So many tears over having to spend 10-20b ISK in the auction slots.

Get over it, Faffy. You will be fine.

hydra provail
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#13 - 2012-05-13 13:43:38 UTC
I've got to agree with Faffy here. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water.

If you really have a problem with Hydra and Outbreak, then revoke the automatic entry for Hydra and Outbreak. Whoa, complex, I know.

In the future, please continue the automatic entry for the top four teams (as long as they play fair). It makes the tourney better.
Musician
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-05-13 18:45:04 UTC
What the matter Darkside and Razor you scared you do not make it through the prelims? I smell fear! STFU and get on with your training, because you going to need it.
Chiimera
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-05-14 04:08:40 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.


First of all im pretty sure that no-one gets a free ride into the next tournament, I know that at least everyone in razor tried very hard, and spent alot of time getting into the finals, personally alliance tournament time for me is from 2-5am in the morning so I think it is pretty ignorant to say it is a free ride.

Getting guaranteed entry into the tournament has never been about providing good matches, it was about the winners getting a chance to defend their title. Also it was seen as a prize which 4 teams now don't get.

Why not allow the 4 teams into the tournament, im sure if you tried talking the the players once in a while you might be able to make a decision that benefits everyone. After all Hydra/Outbreak cant have two teams in the tournament this year anyway so one has to forfeit or otherwise they are both DQ'ed

Gallente Citizen10001
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-05-14 05:01:36 UTC
How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. Lol

For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time.

I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules.

tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-05-14 08:01:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Intigo
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:
How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. Lol

For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time.

I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules.

tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.


This is a good post.

Edit: And yes, best of luck to OB in the tournament! Hope we get to fight at some point later on, will definitely be a tough fight.

hydra provail
Chiimera
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-05-14 12:25:55 UTC
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:
How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. Lol

For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time.

I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules.

tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.



For the record I have nothing against what Hydra/Outbreak did. I thought it was halarious :)
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated
#19 - 2012-05-14 15:38:02 UTC
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:
How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. Lol

For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time.

I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules.

tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.


Well, the main point is simply entrance into the tournamanet. I'm biased of course, but I think it's silly that any of the the top 4 teams have to worry about random draws and auctions. I don't mind running through the qualifiers like everyone else.
Humphrey Goff
The Brown Hole
#20 - 2012-05-14 20:41:59 UTC
Matze reloaded wrote:

Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.


I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right?

Tbh I really think that CCP is handling this well, not making scapegoats out of any individual alliances but trying to address the flaws in the meta game as a whole.
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