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Is there a shortage off Low- and Nullsec players?
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D3F4ULT
#21 - 2012-05-13 23:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: D3F4ULT
Arsedestroyer wrote:
D3F4ULT wrote:
its the players that are broken, not the game.



No interest in hitting directional every few seconds and warping to celestials before jumping all the time for having some fail-alliances demanding my full API and a sperm-sample + requiring me to be be on Mumble whenever I'm on for a measly 10% in additional ratting income whilst they want me to join either pointless roams or boring blobs.


Thank you for proving my point.

All those are player related issues. I'm sorry that you have to operate that way, but I do not. I afk just as much as I do in high sec and mine, rat, all day. Alliance buys back my minerals at jita prices.

I'm living the life of High Sec players but making tenfold what they do. So once again, it's the players that are broken.

"Bow down before the one you serve, you're going to get what you deserve"
Tao Zazen
Virtual Space Monkeys Inc.
#22 - 2012-05-14 04:29:03 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:

As a Highsec player I'm too inexperienced in the ways Low- and Nullsec work, but is there some deeper reasoning behind this than "play the game the way it's meant to be" or "you cannot play different to me/us"?



Troll spotted ... or you dont understand concept of one perpetual and meaningful universe based on dynamic equilibrium


Perpetual? Perhaps -- if you mean balanced in such a way as to be sustainable as an on-line game.
Meaningful? Hmm. There is nothing fundamentally "meaningful" in gaming. It's just entertainment.

My view is that if CCP's market research indicates that EVE online would do better financially in the long run as a more PvP -focused game, then that is certainly the direction they should go.

It's a fair point to argue that the game should not be "nerfed" to accommodate those who prefer a less intense experience.
However, at the end of the day CCP is running a business, and a large number of paying subscribers are, in fact, care bears.

It's a risky bet to assume that the adrenaline junkies who prefer PvP are also the same folks who are going to keep supporting the business model, but CCP does seem to be inching in the direction of promoting more null-sec play.

One of the more interesting questions at the heart of the game is that of the role of law.
Some folks, like the goons, seem to be arguing for anarchy -- which effectively means rule by force and strength alone.
The strong survive and the weak get their asses kicked. Dog-eat-dog. Street gang rules, etc.

This translates as perpetual gang warfare -- until one gang eventually ends up taking over everything.
No more dynamic equilibrium -- just absolute rule by absolute force.
Anarchy is just another transitional state leading eventually to complete despotism.
Malak Dawnfire
Unquestionable Prosperity
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#23 - 2012-05-14 04:31:09 UTC
Maybe if gate camps were removed from the low to high border regions? I've been blown up by a few of them not really angry or anything but attempting to offer a solution.

Maybe if there wasn't such a barrier of death and destruction more people could be lured out there? Not entirely sure though.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2012-05-14 04:38:02 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
.Or is there actually a shortage off players in Low and Null? Do Lowsec players have problems finding opponents? Do alliances have problems to fill their rosters? Do too many players "get stuck" in High?

If you ask our enemies, there are way too many (goons) in Null.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Malak Dawnfire
Unquestionable Prosperity
Grand Inquisitors Federation
#25 - 2012-05-14 04:40:28 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
.Or is there actually a shortage off players in Low and Null? Do Lowsec players have problems finding opponents? Do alliances have problems to fill their rosters? Do too many players "get stuck" in High?

If you ask our enemies, there are way too many (goons) in Null.


If you ask those same people I'm sure they'll say one Goon is too many. P
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2012-05-14 07:10:51 UTC
Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.

This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.

I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX.

.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#27 - 2012-05-14 07:35:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.

This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.

I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX.



Your opinion is:

CCP has failed to remove high level income from the noob starter areas and this has lead to an influx of raid & grind oriented players from simpler MMOs.


CCP's opinion is:

CCP has succeeded moving from an AA title but bad indie company sized 30k subs to an AAA title with a proper company behind it.

Those who did not, like DFO, stayed 30k indie MMOs that slowly faded into extinction.

So, EvE is not the slaugtherhouse you desire but it will see 2013. Seems a good deal.

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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#28 - 2012-05-14 08:29:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Ioci wrote:

Two years ago the North was a huge NAP train. Under the umbrella of a group called Northern Coalition. A year ago it fell, there were no epic space battles, there were no great wars. There was Evac and months of structure bashing. Today the North is what it was 2 years ago. A huge NAP train. The same scenario has played out hundreds of times in Null sec, the exact same process, the exact same result.

It's old.

People stay in High Sec for the same reason people stay in WoW after a decade. They like the game, they want to be here but they really don't know why anymore.


Huge NAP trains are the result of the enormous power-projection capability provided by extremely cheap jump and bridge mechanics. Alliances can NAP all neighbors and their neighbors as well, yet still easily find (by then far weaker in comparison) alliances to curbstomp as a weekend-op without ever having to truly commit (everyone can go back the same night to do some very safe plexing, also for almost no real cost).

Compare the current situation to before when all the jumping and bridging was implemented.

As for people staying in high-sec, it's a simple matter of 'risk&effort vs reward'. Low-sec is only marginally more rewarding then high-sec while being hugely more dangerous and requires more attention and self-substance. Just increase the rewards and don't be afraid to beat individual player income of null.

The point of null is high alliance-level passive income, to be able to pay for stuff like logistics and ship replacements for alliance ops. But null has been cultivated to a point where for an individual player, making money is as risk-free as empire, while being more profitable than maybe high and low-sec combined.

Ofcourse low-sec is left void of meaningful population.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Tao Zazen
Virtual Space Monkeys Inc.
#29 - 2012-05-14 08:43:54 UTC
Roime wrote:
Problem with EVE is that CCP has failed to remove high-level income from the noob starter areas. Missions and Incursions are detached, alien content in the sandbox.

This has lead to an influx of raid & grind -oriented players from simpler MMOs, who speak with terms like "playstyle", "PVE", "opting out of PVP". They are not attracted to EVE because of it's unique, persistent virtual universe, but are only after a space-themed game where they can achieve a naive sense of success by gathering imaginary space kredits, or certificates, the next shiny ship and module.

I understand that these people also bring money for CCP, but aren't exactly the kind of people that I'd love to play with. They are especially bad problem on the forums, where they keep posting stinking whine threads every single day, always the same theme- CHANGE THE RULES BECAUSE I DON'T ACCEPT SANDBOX.



As games go, Eve is pretty elegant, but all games are basically entertainment.

Some people (but not all) are entertained by the competitive aspects of PvP.
Winning in PvP is clearly the only genuine way to feel successful, however.
I bet there is always a really warm glow that comes from ganking some unsuspecting noob who doesn't have 3 years worth of SPs and has no real knowledge of PvP tactics.

There's even more satisfaction that comes from being in a fleet roam flying a corporate-mandated ship with a corporate-mandated fitting and blindly obeying a fleet commander that knows how to use obscenities and insults to best effect.

Now, that's what I call fun gaming !

If you feel that PvP pilots are the only people that you would "love to play with" that's great.
Null sec gives you the opportunity to enjoy this aspect of the game in an unrestricted way.

The last time I checked, however, the game design includes multiple career paths -- many of which do not focus on combat.

The persistent virtual universe you love has 6000 systems in it.
Why does anyone even care if there are players that don't want to live in null sec or low sec?

If the whining really upsets you, then why bother reading the threads?
Why not just play the game the way you want to, and let others do the same?

-TZ
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2012-05-14 08:52:19 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Your opinion is:

CCP has failed to remove high level income from the noob starter areas and this has lead to an influx of raid & grind oriented players from simpler MMOs.


CCP's opinion is:

CCP has succeeded moving from an AA title but bad indie company sized 30k subs to an AAA title with a proper company behind it.

Those who did not, like DFO, stayed 30k indie MMOs that slowly faded into extinction.

So, EvE is not the slaugtherhouse you desire but it will see 2013. Seems a good deal.


You seem to imply that hisec content is key to growth and success of EVE Online, which is rather debatable. If population in low, null and wh's would not be growing as well, you could have a point, but it does grow.

No idea what you mean with "slaughterhouse".

.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#31 - 2012-05-14 08:55:00 UTC
Tao Zazen wrote:
There's even more satisfaction that comes from being in a fleet roam flying a corporate-mandated ship with a corporate-mandated fitting and blindly obeying a fleet commander that knows how to use obscenities and insults to best effect.

Now, that's what I call fun gaming !

Hm, I fly ECM and the first rule is don't be a moron and jam the primary.

But hey, with a FC like Boat, who wouldn't want to follow what he says... promptlyBig smile


If you warped you're dead ~~

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pres Crendraven
#32 - 2012-05-14 09:05:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pres Crendraven
Meh, The whole economy is making a couple hundred trillion a month. Biggest alliance manages to blow up less than a trillion in a weekend they publicized for a month. Hulkageddon got another 1 and a half trillion. More is on the way but A few trillion a month isn't going to do it. I don't know where the balance is but 50 or 60 trillion a month is what we need to make this a vibrant game for avid hard core gamers like so many profess to be. If someone can come up with numbers like that already being destroyed universe wide, I'd just have to say we need even more.

So much effort and complaining is done to make pveers into pvpers and its not working. You can't change people and why should we when most of us can't even change our ownselves. So much effort goes into the security space arguments. My take is that the avid players have to be balanced with the casual players. We need to stimulate more contact between avid players. I don't think we need more players there. I think the space needs to be smaller. Look how well wormholes game. They are constrained, likewise low and null should be resized to fit their population.

I'm not so sure that we are as avid as we claim to be. and worldwide, casual gamers out number the HTFU crowd. Look at console sales. Wii blew playstation out of the water and those are chicks playing badminton. Xbox could be seen as a bit hardcore but the hardware doesn't really match the demographic and since theirs such a wide varity of titles its hard to lump them with playstation numbers.

Lets shrink the size of nonsecure space and see who really wants to find targets. If it increases, it'll be good for everybody.

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#33 - 2012-05-14 09:10:42 UTC
Tao Zazen wrote:

As games go, Eve is pretty elegant, but all games are basically entertainment.

Some people (but not all) are entertained by the competitive aspects of PvP.
Winning in PvP is clearly the only genuine way to feel successful, however.
I bet there is always a really warm glow that comes from ganking some unsuspecting noob who doesn't have 3 years worth of SPs and has no real knowledge of PvP tactics.

There's even more satisfaction that comes from being in a fleet roam flying a corporate-mandated ship with a corporate-mandated fitting and blindly obeying a fleet commander that knows how to use obscenities and insults to best effect.

Now, that's what I call fun gaming !


Actual ship-to-ship combat is just one aspect of playing outside hisec. While I love the hunt, developing a corp and all the (sometimes even mundane) tasks involved with living outside CONCORD protection create the rich experience that I enjoy.

Your view of combat is seriously limited, and you color it with your subjective prejudices about combat pilots. I personally don't enjoy shooting noobs one bit. I sent an apology mail with explanation why wormholers shoot all scanners in their home system, and 10mil to the last one I podded. I hope it made the experience less negative to him.

Winning is more fun when it happens over equal enemies. Losing to better pilots is also fun.

Large fleet combat is also not so rewarding to the single pilot, luckily it's possible to focus solely on solo and small gang.



Quote:
If you feel that PvP pilots are the only people that you would "love to play with" that's great.
Null sec gives you the opportunity to enjoy this aspect of the game in an unrestricted way.

The last time I checked, however, the game design includes multiple career paths -- many of which do not focus on combat.

The persistent virtual universe you love has 6000 systems in it.
Why does anyone even care if there are players that don't want to live in null sec or low sec?

If the whining really upsets you, then why bother reading the threads?
Why not just play the game the way you want to, and let others do the same?

-TZ


I feel I need to defend the ideal of sandbox from players who want to change the rules. This does not mean all those players who are happy with their lives in hisec, and don't post whine threads constantly.

As what comes to "career paths", lol. We are capsuleers, who do what ever we like. I build 50 times more ships than I blow up, does that make me an industrial? I enjoy finding shiny loots, does that make me an explorer? Why cage yourself into something, when you can be anything?

Furthermore, and this is more important- I think EVE Online, the game, only really begins when you step out of the comfort zone. If the system would encourage more people to leave the cradle, and the attitude in NPC corps and the forums would not be so damn rigidly divided in "hisec carebears" and "null zealots", more people could find out how deep and rewarding this game can be.



.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#34 - 2012-05-14 09:20:57 UTC
Sycho Pathic wrote:
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
Do too many players "get stuck" in High?


In my short time in game I've met half a dozen players with 2+ years in game and stacks of 'elite' certificates say they are 'not ready yet' for low/null and need 'one more cert' to be 'ready'.


You could substitute 'interested' for 'ready' in a lot of cases.


I will add then that these are people who say they want to PVP. One waited a year for elite gun certain before trying level 4 missions and did not understand why he died when scramed by a frig. A NPC frig in a mission. He also kept collecting new players and setting them on the certificate before you can advance path while screaming about going to low sec to PVP soon.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#35 - 2012-05-14 09:34:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Roime wrote:

You seem to imply that hisec content is key to growth and success of EVE Online, which is rather debatable. If population in low, null and wh's would not be growing as well, you could have a point, but it does grow.



At the beginning hi sec was more like some forum knights demand for it to return and the game failed to take off.

Sadly for them, EvE needs all those "inferior men playing inferior professions", "warm bodies", "meat to slaugther" they seem to hate so much.

If 0.0 keeps failing, it's not because of some virtual currency being handed too easily in hi sec.

The ISK handed in hi sec just amplify the fact that 0.0 sucks.

If it was as well designed and executed, if it was such an interesting place to go, then people would move there fast, without anybody pretending to force them in there.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2012-05-14 09:44:30 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Roime wrote:

You seem to imply that hisec content is key to growth and success of EVE Online, which is rather debatable. If population in low, null and wh's would not be growing as well, you could have a point, but it does grow.



At the beginning hi sec was more like some forum knights demand for it to return and the game failed to take off.

Sadly for them, EvE needs all those "inferior men playing inferior professions", "warm bodies", "meat to slaugther" they seem to hate so much.

If 0.0 keeps failing, it's not because of some virtual currency being handed too easily in hi sec.

The ISK handed in hi sec just amplify the fact that 0.0 sucks.

If it was as well designed and executed, if it was such an interesting place to go, then people would move there fast, without anybody pretending to force them in there.


You seem to be having a discussion consisting purely of strawmen with yourself. Enjoy it, I guess.


.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-05-14 10:26:43 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:


But from a gameplay perspective people are having different goals and different levels of dedication. As far as I can see, the different levels of security space are catering to all players just fine.

Maybe? Or not?



Carebears what everything being safe and available to them.
The effects of this people dont mine or rat in 0.0 or low-sec becuase there is no reason for them to do so becuase of security of hi sec.
What this then creates is lack of targets for PVP for attackers and defenders, no reason to PVP and game stagnates.

Summing up yes , everything is connected and CCP must take consideration to upkeep game life cycle part of which is destruction.
Pres Crendraven
#38 - 2012-05-14 10:29:30 UTC
PVPers should fight PVPers,. Not because its right or wrong, but it will be empolying the best resources at what they do best to improve the problem. The problem is that PVP between PVPers is bottlenecked. Rather than improve the bottleneck, the idea is forming to increase target throughput by diversify into high sec PVE targets. At best its a little fun, at worst it digs the hole even deeper.

Some Bottlenecks are obvious. The huge blue networks that exist to buffer sov threats.

Third party intel and apps. We're so proud of our ingame programmers and network guys but Intel eliminates the element of surprise. People complain about changing local but thats small potatoes compared to out of game intel. Maybe some of the api's need more delay and maybe the Eula needs modified to make these networks as illegal as bots.

What other bottlenecks exist that are preventing mass carnage? SOv as a whole is floating through my mind. get rid of it?

Meta34me

Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent.
Shian Yang
#39 - 2012-05-14 10:31:36 UTC
Greetings capsuleers,

The things I have learned from my recent excursions into the Tribal Liberation Force ... ah. I should share them.


  • Flying with friends is a good idea. If for no other reason than seeing a group of ships align and enter warp together.
  • Just because CONCORD is at the local Quafe shop, does not mean you are in danger. There are sections of low security that are safer than areas patrolled by CONCORD!
  • If you want ISK, you can find a metric Iteron load of it in low security
  • To raise your standings with agents, do it in low security. They like it when you do it there.
  • Losing a ship does not hurt. Refit. Resupply and fly again.


We are gods. We stride the immortal stars, carving out empires and leaving our marks. My mark thus far appears to be losing ships, but every battle is a lesson learned, a new trick and a willingness to come back. The areas I am in does not seem to be the lawless wasteland that people describe. Yes, you will be shot at once in a while. Sometimes you'll lose. Well. I lose all the time. But I'll start winning at some stage and what is another ship? It's a skin. They are built in their thousands.

I am loving every minute out there. I can now understand why so many enjoy the outer fringes of known space, why they lurk far away from the Empire's prying eyes. It is just insanely more fun out there.

Regards,

Shian Yang
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#40 - 2012-05-14 10:33:51 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:


But from a gameplay perspective people are having different goals and different levels of dedication. As far as I can see, the different levels of security space are catering to all players just fine.

Maybe? Or not?



Carebears what everything being safe and available to them.
The effects of this people dont mine or rat in 0.0 or low-sec becuase there is no reason for them to do so becuase of security of hi sec.
What this then creates is lack of targets for PVP for attackers and defenders, no reason to PVP and game stagnates.

Summing up yes , everything is connected and CCP must take consideration to upkeep game life cycle part of which is destruction.


Imagine for a second, just for discussion sake, they totally removed hi sec.

What makes you believe that carebears would instantly hop in 0.0 and become targets?

They are NOT the players profile that will go to 0.0.
Some will accept to be forced in there, even if to be honest it makes NO sense to play a low income profession when being a target.
The others will just quit. Beginning from those who want to do industry, trading etc, things that in hi sec are very doable and in 0.0 it's almost impossible to be given the roles to do that. Nor they let alt corps join the alliance and access the required facilities.

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