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How is it possible to have a true manufacturing corporations in Eve Online???
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Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#21 - 2012-04-14 19:24:40 UTC
Bob, these problems have been going on for YEARS not months, well within the realms of being able to be fixed, but CCP choose not to fix them, therefore they do not think it's enough of an issue compared to say developing a new tier of Battlecruisers for example, therefore they don't care about it.

I'm not saying that CCP should drop things immediately and sort the roles out, but while I'm no programmer, I can't imagine it's that difficult to create a "Factory Install" or "Laboratory Install" to run along side the Factory or Laboratory Manager roll, giving the rights to install a job but not to stop a job.

I've heard tale of this pos revision that's meant to be in the pipelines, but since I've been playing for coming up 6 years, I'm afraid I'll believe it when I see it.

But we'll see what happens Cool
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#22 - 2012-04-15 00:24:53 UTC
Emma Royd wrote:

I'm not saying that CCP should drop things immediately and sort the roles out, but while I'm no programmer, I can't imagine it's that difficult to create a "Factory Install" or "Laboratory Install" to run along side the Factory or Laboratory Manager roll, giving the rights to install a job but not to stop a job.


There's a CCP post from 1-2 years ago where they talked about the existing corporate roles system. Basically, it's impossible to add roles to the system as it currently functions. So sadly, it is that difficult. At least according to CCP. It's old fragile code.

The only upside is that (a) Keld presented a huge list of issues to CCP during his office tour at Fan Fest and (b) it sounds like POS/corp stuff may finally be on the schedule. But there's no commitment yet from CCP on a release date or even a planned development cycle.
Sahara Uhuru
#23 - 2012-04-15 17:14:16 UTC
If you have a corp with real friends, ppl you know on a close buddy pal basis it is very much possible to make a manufacturing corp.
But as you mentioned 100 members: what is it you want to do?
With 100 active members busy manufacturing stuff you'd need to spread wide because of the need of production lines.
Supplying those lines with ores would be mean feat. Needing several ppl managing the buying of raw materials and a fleet of frighters constantly hauling ore to the production facilities and goods to the trade hubs all over eve.
Adunh Slavy
#24 - 2012-04-15 18:48:30 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
There's a CCP post from 1-2 years ago where they talked about the existing corporate roles system. Basically, it's impossible to add roles to the system as it currently functions. So sadly, it is that difficult. At least according to CCP. It's old fragile code.


Bob is speaking the truth, as he usually does.

CCP explained that corp roles are based on 16 bits. This does not give a lot of options. Many roles seem to overlap or have odd prerequisites because of this limitation. Eve outgrew the roles system.

Certainly we would all like to see something that provides ease and lots of granularity. This isn't terribly difficult to do from scratch, but merging into a legacy system flawlessly is a bit of a chore.

Fortunately for CCP there are infinitely scalable solutions already available. How easily CCP could merge that into Eve is something else. They do not have to reinvent the wheel, but they do need to make sure hamsters and wheels can speak with one another.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Tash'k Omar
Indefinite Mass
#25 - 2012-04-15 20:07:48 UTC
Carlton Foster wrote:
So it sounds like the statement is true. You can not run a true manufacturing corporation in Eve Online.

If you think differently please tell me how to do it, because as far as I can tell it simply can't be done. Which in my opinion is a huge hole in the game. The tutorials say you can be a captain of industry, but this is simply not true. Because of this bug you can only be a captain of your own industry as you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs.

How can someone create a manafacuring corps with a 100 employees if any one of those employees can shut down everything at any time?


Why would you trust others when you can run a corporation of 100 alts? Delegating is for amatures.
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#26 - 2012-05-11 21:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesker
Scrapyard Bob wrote:



Rumors say we might see improvements in 6-12 months.



Bob....

DON'T TEASE ME!!!P

On a more serious note though, corp roles have been in need of a major rehaul for a long time. I've been compiling a list for months. Not only is it an issue with factory jobs, but also corporate inventory management.

As an example, if you wish to use a audit logged station container so that you can monitor who is accessing, you also have to give them container rights to look at or pull anything. With container rights, a member could just transfer the whole container to their personal hanger. Makes sense right? Audit container for logging, but they can just take the whole thing and there isn't a log for that. *Kesker shakes head in disbelief

Completely off topic of factory manager, but it's essentially the same issue. ROLES They are completely fracked.
Katalci
Kismesis
#27 - 2012-05-12 20:31:42 UTC
Carlton Foster wrote:
you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs.

You can just find people you trust, you know.
Deimona
Legion Enterprises Inc.
#28 - 2012-05-12 21:40:15 UTC
Katalci wrote:
Carlton Foster wrote:
you cannot trust others to run manufacturing for you without the fear they will cancel all the jobs.

You can just find people you trust, you know.


Find people you trust? In eve?
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-05-13 14:21:35 UTC
Do you think Steve Jobs or Bill Gates ran the cash registers in their company lunch halls?

Sorry, but OP doesn't have a clue what corp (or company) management entails.
Drusella Uanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-05-14 01:40:51 UTC
Rule #1: Trust no one
Rule #2: If someone says you can trust them, they are scamming you
Rule #3: If you think you can trust someone, they haven't scammed you yet

Truth is even if you find people you can trust its only a matter of time before a founding member of your alliance empties the holding corp's wallet and disbands the alliance because he's pissed at someone.
MiMena
Kessel Moria Syndicate
#31 - 2012-05-14 03:54:35 UTC
Carlton Foster wrote:
How can someone run a manufacturing corporation in Eve with this bug?


Easy

You and all your industry alts. No one else.

And yes, this can be VERY profitable.

Trust NO one with your ISK.
veshna wildsun
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-06-30 00:43:41 UTC
I would love to see roles fixed but working on them is like working on a car that is running. Everyone has their roles and methods set up the way it works for them and then 'poof' along come the changes, and possible bugs, and everything is very different. Something as easy as swapping fuel types for POS's was a potential major disaster, imagine how badly this can go awry, especially with people like Goons actively looking for patches to exploit.

I think it will happen eventually but they are going to have to be as careful as frogs in a dynamite pond.
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#33 - 2012-06-30 02:51:09 UTC
Until some granularity is added to corp roles - any corp that deals with assets or asset manipulation is better off handling those assets with a very few (or singular) centralized people and letting the masses make requests against it.

In the case of industry, this means you're better off running it as a collection of individuals than as a combined corporation.
Steve Thomas
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-06-30 07:38:50 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
There's a CCP post from 1-2 years ago where they talked about the existing corporate roles system. Basically, it's impossible to add roles to the system as it currently functions. So sadly, it is that difficult. At least according to CCP. It's old fragile code.


Bob is speaking the truth, as he usually does.

CCP explained that corp roles are based on 16 bits. This does not give a lot of options. Many roles seem to overlap or have odd prerequisites because of this limitation. Eve outgrew the roles system.

Certainly we would all like to see something that provides ease and lots of granularity. This isn't terribly difficult to do from scratch, but merging into a legacy system flawlessly is a bit of a chore.

Fortunately for CCP there are infinitely scalable solutions already available. How easily CCP could merge that into Eve is something else. They do not have to reinvent the wheel, but they do need to make sure hamsters and wheels can speak with one another.

to clarify

theres EXACTLY 16 roles that the system can allow you to do. not 2^16 Bascialy its a "yes this role can do this -no this role can not do this' type system.

unfortnatly a lot of thoes are tied up with just normal every day single player functions.

they have looked at building a new "Corp" rule setup from the ground up that would be a lot more flexible, modular and allow for later exapansion.

problems? Several.

One is that it would also have to work with simular restricitions caused by the overlying Aliance structure. so they basicaly found they need to go in and rebuild THAT. unfortunatly they have to do so at the same time. as in they know they cant do one or the other, they have to do and roll out both or else things go BOOM

also any transition from old structure to new structure would have to somehow be "Failsafed", you cant have the CFO functions abruptly change to to something even a little bit diferent without causeing problems either in code or with the playerbase.(or worse, both) so do you somehow keep the old code around as a "non editable template" that you can simply reasign or do you force change the roles to the new system? (and god help CS if only 0.1% of the corps have a bug crop up when this happens given the number of corps out there.
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#35 - 2012-06-30 08:56:41 UTC
While the other problems are far more extensive than the 'how to get into the new role system' problem - the how-to transition question is easy. Strip all roles off everyone but CEO's/directors. Done.
Nikodiemus
Ganja Clade
Shadow Cartel
#36 - 2012-06-30 12:41:51 UTC
Require collateral valued in excess of the materials you keep in hanger at any time from each person with the role. Problem solved.
Bath Sheeba
Another Success Story
#37 - 2012-06-30 13:06:33 UTC
Nikodiemus wrote:
Require collateral valued in excess of the materials you keep in hanger at any time from each person with the role. Problem solved.



Does the system report (to us) who exactly cancelled a job?
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#38 - 2012-06-30 13:16:33 UTC
Nope.
Carlton Foster
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-06-30 13:26:58 UTC
Nikodiemus wrote:
Require collateral valued in excess of the materials you keep in hanger at any time from each person with the role. Problem solved.


You would have to require the collateral value equal to every job in the entire Corp as anyone can cancel every job.
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