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Issues thread for the new font on SiSi

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CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#101 - 2011-10-02 17:25:44 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Athreya wrote:
Brynseldimer wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been covered, but periods are nigh invisible with this new font and commas aren't much better. Likewise, colons and semicolons are difficult to see.
Font without shadow will look different on different color backgrounds. Need to add shadows first then look again.

The question is why dont hire good artist to make new font for the game? The artist who is specializing in vector graphic and pixelwork. I can also work with photoshop, but I would never start new font, because I know there are people who can make this work better then myself. Where is old font designer?

There was a font specialist who made the font. I didn't make it myself Blink


Well the real question in the end is what changes are going to be made before font hits tranq... ?
Will players get some options? Have the issues with font size being adressed and will there be actions to fix them?

I have really bad hunch that this will be dejavu from Incarna launch. People get 3 more quarters and ship spinner back, but they lose totally working font and are unable to select it back from options screen. They get pissed because many of these issues and boom - we have perfectly fine expansion turned to disaster again.

I remind that people wanted fix to "I1, O0, 5S, 6G&, 8B"-issue and _option_ to choose font size. Someone made decission to reinvent the wheel (again) and create own font to fix the issues. Now we have expensive new font which fixed some old issues issues but caused many brand new ones. People are still unable to choose font size. Well spent subscription fees again.

If you licenced "arial unicode ms"-font it is really difficult to understand why didn't you just use it for everything. It has fixed width numbers, is very readable even with smallest 8 pixel height and scales to what ever size you want. It has nice dot and comma. "n" and "h" look like "n" and "h". Letter "a" has nuff spacing on left side. "La" doesn't look like the "L" would be inside the "a".

Now look back to the goals:
1. Fix "I1, O0, 5S, 6G&, 8B"-issue
2. Provide _option_ to choose font size.
3. Do not break anything what wasn't broken with old font.

When you wake up in the morning when your font fix is about to go live, can you honestly say that these goals have been reached. Some answers would be kewl.

It is perfectly ok to think ahead and fear for the worst. I may sound over dramatic, but really trying to ring fair heads up "warning bell" here. Obviously you people are the ones who make the final decisions and form your own future. Sometimes I may not agree with them but unfortunately as your customer I still have to live with 'em (as long I am paying the sub fees).


Some people actually like the new font and agree with us on that it's more readable. It is very hard to please everyone!

We will of course do our best to address all issues that have been raised here (other than the "OMG THE FONT IS UGLY" and other alike).

There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2011-10-02 17:35:12 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:

Some people actually like the new font and agree with us on that it's more readable. It is very hard to please everyone!

We will of course do our best to address all issues that have been raised here (other than the "OMG THE FONT IS UGLY" and other alike).

There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.

Yep this is pretty much what I was afraid of. However I appreciate the direct reply. At least now I know with what is coming and don't need to speculate. Thank you for being honest with me. Now it is my problem to find ways to adapt to the change.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
McFly
Peanut Factory
#103 - 2011-10-02 17:43:18 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:


There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


This makes a sad panda....

Screen Real Estate is everything in eve, and destroying our ability to cram as much information as we can on screen is very dissappointing. It took 6 years for us to get the ability to detach and move windows around decently, and now with this font you will be making it even more difficult.

Old Font should remain an option. Making the ui and minimum window spacing larger to accomadate the new font is not a solution, it's a hotfix to a problem the new font has created.

I know you want to make eve "shiny" but please stop alienating your existing player base for the possibility of gaining more subscribers.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#104 - 2011-10-02 17:47:37 UTC
McFly wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:


There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


This makes a sad panda....

Screen Real Estate is everything in eve, and destroying our ability to cram as much information as we can on screen is very dissappointing. It took 6 years for us to get the ability to detach and move windows around decently, and now with this font you will be making it even more difficult.

Old Font should remain an option. Making the ui and minimum window spacing larger to accomadate the new font is not a solution, it's a hotfix to a problem the new font has created.

I know you want to make eve "shiny" but please stop alienating your existing player base for the possibility of gaining more subscribers.



Hmm.. actually a lot of players complain about the font being too small. So making it bigger is helping them out. It's mostly people who play on high resolution screens.

It makes me a sad panda that you feel like I'm alienating our existing player base when I'm just trying to make them happy Sad

Because this font change is mostly for all the players that have complained about the old font (being too small, the letters looking the same etc.) - not to get new people to the game.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Brynseldimer
Vermelho Escorpia
#105 - 2011-10-02 17:54:36 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


So why not just do this instead of doing a project that changes the font AND has to change the windows around as well anyway. I'd think for most parts of the UI, allowing upscaling (or downscaling) would be a much simpler and more effective choice. It also allows the players to choose how they want to have the UI displayed. I know the complications with not allowing other fonts because they won't fit in UI windows, but that's why UI scaling would be such a superior option.

You remember the fallout from not having spinning ships anymore right? Taking functionality away is never going to sit well with the players.
Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#106 - 2011-10-02 17:57:40 UTC
I think they were- in general, complaining that it was small and unreadable. Now that its large and quite readable, it feels a little too large. In fleet battles, a good 40% of my screen is already full of UI windows, this is probably going to push that up to 60-70%.

I still think it's a step up from where we're coming from, but perhaps looking into a UI scaling project would be a good idea.
Cedric deBouilard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2011-10-02 19:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Cedric deBouilard
CCP Punkturis wrote:
There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


Can we get anything on this "UI scaling project"?
also, any news on neo-neocom? is it related to UI scaling thing?
moar info?

if changing font-size is not a "direct" option, then UI scaling is critical. I have two screens, 26'' and 22'' and in one screen (26'') new font appears good and in the smaller one new font is kinda looks rough and bigger. (it "feels" as if wasting space - see the screenshots with comparisons? its that feeling)
so new fonts are not evil, they actually let me differentiate between O and 0, B and 8 and really helps in bigger screens but feels like too big in small screens.
yeah, you cant make everyone happy it seems, unless, of course, you give them the ability to scale UI Blink
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#108 - 2011-10-02 19:59:40 UTC
Cedric deBouilard wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


yeah, you cant make everyone happy it seems, unless, of course, you give them the ability to scale UI Blink


I'm pretty sure we can find some people who hate that too Blink

But all I can say is that it's something that we want in.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Cedric deBouilard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2011-10-02 20:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Cedric deBouilard
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Cedric deBouilard wrote:
...]

I'm pretty sure we can find some people who hate that too Blink
But all I can say is that it's something that we want in.


oh well true, this is eve, I can easily find things to hate you for, even if you somehow magically *fixed* the game and sent a couple exotic dancers to my Capt Quarters for free.

Now back on the font, one thing that bothers me is the text placement in limited spaces, such as tabs & buttons. If you center/place the text more accurately in the next SiSi patch, it is my belief many people will stop simply saying "the new font is ugly"; when the placement/positioning is broken (not ideal) to begin with, people say the font sucks, even tho its not actually a font problem. its a perception thing, and most of us are too eager to jump on it.
o9n the other hand, the distance between certain letters may use some improvement (again, check the sceenshot earlier with comparisons).
Psychophantic
#110 - 2011-10-03 01:44:58 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:

It is very hard to please everyone!


Option : New font / Old font.

Done.
flank steak
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2011-10-03 02:21:30 UTC
Could you please make this optional Sad

I am still young an I can read the old font really well but now when i look at the new font it looks like a cheap font for a 800x600 screen
David Magnus
#112 - 2011-10-03 02:51:34 UTC  |  Edited by: David Magnus
Logged into SiSi today and noticed a couple things right off the bat.
Not sure if these have been addressed but I took a simple screen shot that shows the problem.

Please see:
http://i.imgur.com/wdU6Z.png
http://i.imgur.com/rjBQh.png

The first letter of a couple of the items is cut off, also none of the stacking numbers fit in the boxes.

This is on Windows 7 Pro 64bit, on an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560Ti in fixed windowed mode at 1920x1080 resolution.

Thank you very much!

EDIT
Another interesting font issue:
http://i.imgur.com/w7oy8.png

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/fight-us-maybe

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/winterupdate

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/supercaps

http://soundcloud.com/davidkmagnus/pandemiclegion
Rhaegor Stormborn
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2011-10-03 03:17:59 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Athreya wrote:
Brynseldimer wrote:
I'm not sure if this has been covered, but periods are nigh invisible with this new font and commas aren't much better. Likewise, colons and semicolons are difficult to see.
Font without shadow will look different on different color backgrounds. Need to add shadows first then look again.

The question is why dont hire good artist to make new font for the game? The artist who is specializing in vector graphic and pixelwork. I can also work with photoshop, but I would never start new font, because I know there are people who can make this work better then myself. Where is old font designer?

There was a font specialist who made the font. I didn't make it myself Blink


Well the real question in the end is what changes are going to be made before font hits tranq... ?
Will players get some options? Have the issues with font size being adressed and will there be actions to fix them?

I have really bad hunch that this will be dejavu from Incarna launch. People get 3 more quarters and ship spinner back, but they lose totally working font and are unable to select it back from options screen. They get pissed because many of these issues and boom - we have perfectly fine expansion turned to disaster again.

I remind that people wanted fix to "I1, O0, 5S, 6G&, 8B"-issue and _option_ to choose font size. Someone made decission to reinvent the wheel (again) and create own font to fix the issues. Now we have expensive new font which fixed some old issues issues but caused many brand new ones. People are still unable to choose font size. Well spent subscription fees again.

If you licenced "arial unicode ms"-font it is really difficult to understand why didn't you just use it for everything. It has fixed width numbers, is very readable even with smallest 8 pixel height and scales to what ever size you want. It has nice dot and comma. "n" and "h" look like "n" and "h". Letter "a" has nuff spacing on left side. "La" doesn't look like the "L" would be inside the "a".

Now look back to the goals:
1. Fix "I1, O0, 5S, 6G&, 8B"-issue
2. Provide _option_ to choose font size.
3. Do not break anything what wasn't broken with old font.

When you wake up in the morning when your font fix is about to go live, can you honestly say that these goals have been reached. Some answers would be kewl.

It is perfectly ok to think ahead and fear for the worst. I may sound over dramatic, but really trying to ring fair heads up "warning bell" here. Obviously you people are the ones who make the final decisions and form your own future. Sometimes I may not agree with them but unfortunately as your customer I still have to live with 'em (as long I am paying the sub fees).


Some people actually like the new font and agree with us on that it's more readable. It is very hard to please everyone!

We will of course do our best to address all issues that have been raised here (other than the "OMG THE FONT IS UGLY" and other alike).

There won't be a way to use the old font and there won't be a way to select fontsize. That's because it's hard to maintain that in a UI window, if you make the font larger, it's not going to fit there anymore. UI Scaling would be a better way to sort issues with the fontsize, but that's another project.


You idiots better give us the ability to use the old font. God damn it. Quit ruining our game.
Athreya
YTM Corporation
#114 - 2011-10-03 04:33:25 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
There was a font specialist who made the font. I didn't make it myself Blink
Of cause you gave orders and if font specialist made regular, not artistic font which does not fit the game well it is your problem. “A wise man's question contains half the answer.”
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#115 - 2011-10-03 07:22:21 UTC
David Magnus wrote:
Logged into SiSi today and noticed a couple things right off the bat.
Not sure if these have been addressed but I took a simple screen shot that shows the problem.

Please see:
http://i.imgur.com/wdU6Z.png
http://i.imgur.com/rjBQh.png

The first letter of a couple of the items is cut off, also none of the stacking numbers fit in the boxes.

This is on Windows 7 Pro 64bit, on an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560Ti in fixed windowed mode at 1920x1080 resolution.

Thank you very much!

EDIT
Another interesting font issue:
http://i.imgur.com/w7oy8.png



Thank you Big smile

The item name cut off has been fixed and so has the fitting window issue, I'll take a look at the stacking numbers today.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Athreya
YTM Corporation
#116 - 2011-10-03 11:20:51 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
The item name cut off has been fixed and so has the fitting window issue, I'll take a look at the stacking numbers today.
Still have percentage characters out of the rectangles of resist areas.

More problems:
1. Counter to lock tagret frequently does not fit locking rectangle as shown on the image below
2. Shield status in tooltip is difficult to understand, to many decimal digits here
3. Tooltip for modules has empty line

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/errorsfv.jpg/

4. Analyzing... has hardly readable 3 dots, looks like blured
5. Counter does not fit rectangle

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/survey.jpg/
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#117 - 2011-10-03 11:47:36 UTC
Athreya wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
The item name cut off has been fixed and so has the fitting window issue, I'll take a look at the stacking numbers today.
Still have percentage characters out of the rectangles of resist areas.

More problems:
1. Counter to lock tagret frequently does not fit locking rectangle as shown on the image below
2. Shield status in tooltip is difficult to understand, to many decimal digits here
3. Tooltip for modules has empty line

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/errorsfv.jpg/

4. Analyzing... has hardly readable 3 dots, looks like blured
5. Counter does not fit rectangle

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/survey.jpg/



thank you for this:)

1, 4 and 5 have been fixed, I'll take a look at the other.

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Cirage
Ventus
#118 - 2011-10-03 12:05:44 UTC
"You idiots better give us the ability to use the old font. God damn it. Quit ruining our game."

What's up with the language? Reading stuff like this make me wish I had a smaller font in my web browser.
Li Charen-Teng
#119 - 2011-10-03 12:27:21 UTC
I copied my setting files from Tranquility over to Sisi, so this is my live HUD on Sisi. I marked a few things that are obvious after looking at the image for less than 10 seconds.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9782/newfont.jpg

Checking EVE GATE every few minutes...
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#120 - 2011-10-03 12:52:29 UTC
Li Charen-Teng wrote:
I copied my setting files from Tranquility over to Sisi, so this is my live HUD on Sisi. I marked a few things that are obvious after looking at the image for less than 10 seconds.

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9782/newfont.jpg


thank you! this stuff is really helpful Big smile

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥