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Furious about Gate Camping (how to survive)
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Lord X3n0s Aeon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-13 22:33:09 UTC
So, I'm a newbie that manages to play between his EE classes. I just got to lvl 3 security missions and am flying a drake w/ tech I heavy launchers (tech ii in a few days), 2.8 mil skills.

So based on what seemed like expert advice from some well-intentioned pros in another thread I head towards lower sec space. When looking through lvl 3 agents in agent finder I find one in 0.4 space 8 jumps away and decide to go for it. (0.4 being the lowest sec on the journey). What better way to get my feat wet? After all, "the game doesn't even start till nul sec" and "all the real money is made out there".

I get gate-camped and murdered. Yes yes I'm a noob if I had only used the stratospheric quantum nanite deflector I could of defeated the warp blah blah. I get it. I'm trying to learn though. I land and warp immediately after the gate, and some guy in a hurricane scrambles me and blows me out of the sky (to be fair, I almost got him), then kills my pod.

At this point, that was a substantial amount of all the ISK I've made thus far, and it blows me away that a game can be built to allow this level of cheapness. It's one thing if I'm in 0.0 and cruising for PVP, it's another to design systems with the ultimate choke point to end all choke points and then allow players to camp it. I get it, sandbox, virtual world virtual crime, and I'll likely get nothing more than "quit yer bchin" out of this forum. But this is EXACTLY why so many people have no desire to enter low sec and nul sec, because cheap tactics will vaporize your months of work.

Now I'm determined, I'm going to claw my way back up, find that guy, and kick his ass. Then I'm gonna kick his dog. But most people aren't that way. Many just quit and move on to something better. I love EVE as a game and as a concept and want it to succeed, but if we ever want to hit 500k, or 1+ mil people you've got to have better options/mechanics for newbies.

Since this is Q&A:

-How could I have beat that warp scramble? I hit warp THE second the menu populated on spawn.
Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#2 - 2012-05-13 22:38:52 UTC
You made a very common mistake.

Don't take expensive ships into low-sec when you're first learning. You will lose your first PvP battles, and you will pay for those losses with your hard-earned ISK if you're flying an expensive ship. If you just lose a Rifter and have a fully upgraded clone, it won't hurt all that badly. Just accept the fact that you're going to die a few - or more than a few - ti

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/
Cameron Zero
Sebiestor Tribe
#3 - 2012-05-13 22:47:49 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
-How could I have beat that warp scramble? I hit warp THE second the menu populated on spawn.



You ARE going to get a lot of "don't go to low/null" or "don't fly what you can't afford to replace" comments, but to specifically address this point, there's really not much you can do.

Oh, sure, you could fit warp core stabilizers into your low slots so that you can travel more easily. Effectively, each WCS negates one "point" of warp disruptor strength - a warp disruptor is one "point" and a warp scrambler is two "points". NOTE: A ship can fit multiple disruptors/scramblers and can use them all on you, AND there are certain ships in the game which can put an "infinite strength" point on you.

There are severe drawbacks to using WCS, though, and the primary one is that they cut your targeting range a lot.

So, if you don't use WCS, how do you get through that gatecamp? Well, unless you're carrying superior firepower, you don't. So, here's how to avoid them in the future:

Before you jump into low/null sec, hop into a shuttle. Update your clone (move your medical clone somewhere close) and jump into the system you want to enter. A shuttle can warp nearly instantly, and only a specially fitted ship is going to catch you. Even if they do, you've lost a shuttle and not your 100m ISK battlecruiser.

Check dotlan maps for the systems you are going to be traveling through (specifically ships/pods killed in the past hour) and if you see a lot, avoid the system.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. …"
Lord X3n0s Aeon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-05-13 23:02:12 UTC
Cameron Zero wrote:
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
-How could I have beat that warp scramble? I hit warp THE second the menu populated on spawn.



You ARE going to get a lot of "don't go to low/null" or "don't fly what you can't afford to replace" comments, but to specifically address this point, there's really not much you can do.

Oh, sure, you could fit warp core stabilizers into your low slots so that you can travel more easily. Effectively, each WCS negates one "point" of warp disruptor strength - a warp disruptor is one "point" and a warp scrambler is two "points". NOTE: A ship can fit multiple disruptors/scramblers and can use them all on you, AND there are certain ships in the game which can put an "infinite strength" point on you.

There are severe drawbacks to using WCS, though, and the primary one is that they cut your targeting range a lot.

So, if you don't use WCS, how do you get through that gatecamp? Well, unless you're carrying superior firepower, you don't. So, here's how to avoid them in the future:

Before you jump into low/null sec, hop into a shuttle. Update your clone (move your medical clone somewhere close) and jump into the system you want to enter. A shuttle can warp nearly instantly, and only a specially fitted ship is going to catch you. Even if they do, you've lost a shuttle and not your 100m ISK battlecruiser.

Check dotlan maps for the systems you are going to be traveling through (specifically ships/pods killed in the past hour) and if you see a lot, avoid the system.


Huh, now there's a really good point. I never thought of checking the map's for killed ships. That seems like a really good idea.

Also, how does the shuttle thing work exactly? Run it once to see if it's clear, then one home, then one to get the battle cruiser there?

-Good points though guys, I appreciate the feedback. All that makes sense for 0.0, but 0.4? It seemed like now you have:

Empire -> insta-killin da noobs

What if you had:

Empire (noob haven) -> more profitable -> risky -> dangerous -> wild west

As in, things were more incremental?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#5 - 2012-05-13 23:09:10 UTC
And remember that some low sec border gate camps are organised, with scouts on the hisec side. The actual campers will only warp to the gate to shoot targets of interest: so they won't jump your shuttle scout, they'll wait for you to go through with your T2 fitted Drake.

One option is to scout with a covert ops frigate, and try to make contact with the locals in each system. See if you can't make friends.

Another option is to make friends with other people like you, and head out to low sec in force. Sit a covops frigate off the gate and watch what happens for a few nights. Get to know who's doing the camping, what ships they use, and try to figure out what fittings they're likely to be using — you can visually inspect their ships to see the types of weapons being used. Organise a larger fleet than the campers use, and send through a bait ship: typically a battleship with all slots dedicated to tank. Once the bait is taken, send the rest of your fleet through (but remember they'll be watching the hisec gate, so keep your ships out of sight).

Yet another option is to join Faction Warfare and participate in the local militia, forgetting about your goal of running missions from a 0.4 until you're familiar with the community in the systems you frequent.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#6 - 2012-05-14 01:14:06 UTC
Once the scram is on you, your options are:

1: Go fast enough to get out of scram range, when the scram drops warp before they can re-engage it. Variations include bumping them, bouncing them off the gate, etc. Note that this rarely works as they're generally prepared to outrun you (they'll have a web or just be in a fast ship.

2: Break their target lock somehow, generally with ECM. Then warp out before they re-lock.

3: Us a capacitor drain of some kind (usually a Nos) to kill their cap so they can't keep the module running.

4: Kill them fast, then warp away before their friends arrive.

Generally speaking being cautious and not putting yourself in a position to be trapped is going to have a higher success rate, though.
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-05-14 01:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Katie Frost
One very simple thing you could have done to avoid getting killed there - and generally when you jump into a low-sec gate-camp, is just go back to the gate you came in from and jump back through to safety. The aggressing ship will not be able to follow you due to aggression mechanics (look it up on eve-wiki).

If you were facing off against one ship - especially a battlecruiser, you could have easily tanked his damage until you made it back to gate even if warp scrambled (which would shot down your MWD). Remember not to shoot back however, or the gate will not permit you to jump through.

Good luck next time.
Lord X3n0s Aeon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-14 02:12:40 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
One very simple thing you could have done to avoid getting killed there - and generally when you jump into a low-sec gate-camp, is just go back to the gate you came in from and jump back through to safety. The aggressing ship will not be able to follow you due to aggression mechanics (look it up on eve-wiki).

If you were facing off against one ship - especially a battlecruiser, you could have easily tanked his damage until you made it back to gate even if warp scrambled (which would shot down your MWD). Remember not to shoot back however, or the gate will not permit you to jump through.

Good luck next time.


Yep that was actually the first thing I tried once I got warp scrambled, but I was 8000m from the gate and he hit me with some field where I could only pull 40 m/s. Once I realized I couldn't get back I returned fire but he had half my shields already.
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-05-14 03:02:32 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
So based on what seemed like expert advice from some well-intentioned pros in another thread I head towards lower sec space.


+1 internet to those eve pros Big smile

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Lord X3n0s Aeon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-05-14 03:10:23 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:
So based on what seemed like expert advice from some well-intentioned pros in another thread I head towards lower sec space.


+1 internet to those eve pros Big smile


Lol. I'd laugh more if it wasn't me!
Kathiri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-05-14 03:57:12 UTC
Well I'm a noob to :p been playing eve off and on for years, and your right the first few times you claw your way onto a battleship or other shiny new toy only to lose it to a gank or gate camp really does deter people from still playing the game.

I wish the Eve tutorial would stress the point "it doesn't matter what you fly". Frigates, cruisers, battleships all have their place in a corp. I spend most of my time in a destroyer popping frigates and thats fun enough for me for now.

Eve should really point out that just because it only takes these two or three skill to get in a ship, doesn't mean you can actually fly it. When you sit down and go thru the dozens of skills for piloting, gunnery, upgrades etc it's insane. Without them tho, your just sitting in a toy.

Anyway for your issue, unless you are fully skilled and fitted in the ship your flying, you have no chance in PVP. Best defense against gate camps is to not enter one. The shuttle scouting is nice and all if you have a ship with valuable cargo, but your not likely to do this every single time you want to run a mish that takes out of system. Same with mult-boxers, it's nice and all, but for the average Eve player it's overkill.

So my advice as a fellow newb and really I'm just a casual eve player:
-Also agree check the map for the route you want to fly, takes a minute and saves you all sorts of headache
-Are you using auto pilot? I hope not, but this is a common mistake, use autopilot to show you the next gate in your route on screen, but pilot there manually using Warp to 0. I've avoided death countless times this way
-Don't buy any ship unless you have a bank roll to afford buying ten of them. (you can pop my destroyer, I don't stress I have 5 others fully fitted in station :p )
-Don't fly a ship with the base skills, ensure you first learn all the secondary recommended skills to back it up.
Karloth Valois
1st. Pariah Malefactor corp.
The New Eden Yacht Club.
#12 - 2012-05-14 04:09:49 UTC
Lord X3n0s Aeon wrote:

Since this is Q&A:

-How could I have beat that warp scramble? I hit warp THE second the menu populated on spawn.


Just because you hit warp doesnt mean you are in warp. The time it takes before you are aligned and at 75% speed you are still targetable and the warp scramble stops the warp if you are away. Your drake is slow to warp, something smaller and faster would have better luck.

You could scout the gates with a alt in cov-ops etc and find another way around if they are camped, soon your learn what systems to avoid.

if you do get caught and can make it back to the gate dont shoot and go as fast as you can (that thing that slowed you down is a web) or get out of scram range (normally 20KM or 24KM) If you cant get away....turn on tank, get in range for you guns and go out in a blaze of glory, you might take one down with you.

In Lowsec you shouldnt lose your Pod, when you know your ship is going to die, find something you can warp to, align and spam warp when your ship goes you should be able to get your pod out before it can be locked unlessthey have a stupid high sensor strength/smart bomb/you **** up and are trying to approach something not warp.

It's not been nice, but thanks for using lube
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-14 07:52:40 UTC
If you want to try and taste low sec a little, with the least possible risk, run some distribution missions in a Blockade Runner.

Asuming you're Caldari (you're flying a drake)

try this crane:


High

Covert-ops Cloaking device.

mid:

Experimental Mn10 warpdriver.
(other midslots are not realy importand but you could put in a EM ward Amplifyer and some invunrabilty fields)

Low

2X Nano Fiber internal structure T2

Rigs:

2X Medium low friction nozzle joints T2


This will give you a beloww 3.5 align time depending on skills.
Together with the Covert-opps cloak only a combination badluck and stupidity can get you caught in lowsec.

When you get a little familliar with the area, you can play with the low slots and riggs optimising your cargo hold.

you can also use it to do some low sec PI and or bring in some frigates for PvP.

Also learn to use your D-scan.

It's some training time but it's worth every minute of it.

Especialy when running PI, the investment is about 200 million ISK including ship and collonies and from that point on you're only gaining isk.
The Atomium
Global Song Setup
#14 - 2012-05-14 08:10:37 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
If you want to try and taste low sec a little, with the least possible risk, run some distribution missions in a Blockade Runner.

Asuming you're Caldari (you're flying a drake)

try this crane:
*words*

So, you'll advice a newbie with 2.8m SP who can barely afford his Drake / whatever T1 ship to get a Crane with Tech 2 Rigs to try Gatecamp running?

lolno.


My advice for simple gate running:
Get a conder or better a vigil, fit it with a mwd / nanos / speed rigs and try to outrun gatecamps just for fun.
The ship will cost you about 300k Isk and it's totally worth the fun you get.


If you want to survive a gatecamp with your drake, the best thing to do:

1) Wait ~15sec for the Session Timer
2) Approach gate, overheat hardeners / prop mod
3) Hope they've no webs
4) Jump when in range

aka Luba Cibre
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-05-14 09:08:20 UTC
When I first started I also thought gatecamps were impossible to navigate.

A couple of days ago I did 14 jumps through lowsec in my armor rupture, encounterd 4 camps and arrived safe at my destination.

What could you have done?
Travel fit that drake : warp core stabs in the lows
You could have burned back to the gate and jumped back to highsec.
You could have fitted a simple T1 cloak.
You could have scouted the gate.

You did none of the above and got killed. Learn from the experience and better luck next time.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-05-14 10:11:06 UTC
The Atomium wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
If you want to try and taste low sec a little, with the least possible risk, run some distribution missions in a Blockade Runner.

Asuming you're Caldari (you're flying a drake)

try this crane:
*words*

So, you'll advice a newbie with 2.8m SP who can barely afford his Drake / whatever T1 ship to get a Crane with Tech 2 Rigs to try Gatecamp running?

lolno.



Miss typed the T2 riggs, although these t2 are very cheap 13 million/ but t1 will do the less than 3.5 aligntime

This set up is done in 16 days training from scratch and although the hull is expensive the fitting isn't overall the finacial difference with a fully fitted Drake is not that big.

and although this will take a little longer and it's more expensie that the 300k Virgil gets you pass gate camps, it will do no more than that. So you are in low sec, then what?

The option I presented will give him the oppertunity to actualy make a little ISK whle he makes him self familiar with low sec, create save spots and pave the road for the rest of your ships.
Lord X3n0s Aeon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-05-14 10:13:45 UTC
Thanks guys, there have been many thought out and well-mannered responses on here that have been really helpful. Really appreciate it!
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-05-14 10:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
what do when you jump through a gate and see a gatecamp on the other side?

(1) hold cloak, keep calm and assess the situation. You are cloaked for 30s unless you move, you have a ten seconds session change timer until you can use a gate again which you should wait out cloaked in any case.
Don't panic, don't move - 30 seconds is a very long time for you to arrive at a decision.

(2) Your options are:
(a) burn back to the gate
(b) try to warp away
(c) get tackled before you can warp but run away anyways
(d) fight

(a) is what you will end up doing 9 times out of 10 and is why you always should have a microwarpdrive fitted.
If there is only one hostile ship you will almost always want to choose this option:
Toggle overheat on your MWD (Thermodynamics is an extremely important skill), decloak and burn back to the gate you came through. If they shoot/tackle/aggress you, don't shoot back.
Once you are back at the gate there are two possibilities
- they have aggressed you: this means they won't be able to use the gate for 2 minutes, you jump through and escape.
- they haven't aggressed you: you warp to a safe location (station, moon, safespot, POS) in this solar system and laugh at them.
If they have a lot of webs you may not make it back to the gate but if there is any chance you might make it, don't aggress anyone on this site - overheat your hardeners and pray.

(b) if you are in a smaller ship than the gatecamp (and they don't have a lot of sensor boosters) you might be able to warp away before they get a point on you. If you are in a Drake and your enemy is in a Hurricane you won't.

(c) you might get pointed before being able to do option (b) but maybe you are fast enough to burn out of point range (and warp off). If you are in a nano ship this might be a viable option. If they have light tackle or long-range webs it's a bad idea.

(d) only do this if none of the other options has any chance of succeeding and you have a realistic hope to take out at least one enemy.

elite pvp advice: you are in a drake and there is a lone hurricane camping the gate.
zoom in on the hurricane and check the guns. if they are artillery or 220mm autocannons the hurricane will probably be armor tanked and is slow but has two webs which will make option (a) risky, if you are outside web/scram range go for option (b)/(c).
if the guns are 425mm autocannons the hurricane will probably have no web but is fairly agile, go for option (a).

.
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#19 - 2012-05-14 11:18:52 UTC
People will try to bump your ship out of alignment/range of the gate.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#20 - 2012-05-14 13:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinstar Colton
When venturing to low sec, make sure your autopiolot is set to "Prefer shortest" rather than "prefer safest".

Safest will generally direct you to a bottleneck system where gate campers tend to hang out. Shorter will have you slip in (generally) in a safer system.

Your best bet? An alt in a newbie ship. Fly your alt into the gate and jump. If the gate is camped... you basically lose nothing but a newbie ship and gain information. If it isn't, then you know it is safe..ish.

I've been flying distribution missions in a T1 industrial and have only been popped once.

Oh, and one last tip: Don't be Furious

By traveling to low sec, you accept the higher risk. Raging only encourages the campers. If you are popped, complement your attackers on the cunning of their camp setup. You may be surprised at the reaction that prompts.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

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