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Ask A Psychologist About EvE
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Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#101 - 2012-05-13 22:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
Gahagan wrote:
Pok Nibin wrote:
A BS in psych and ready to be an authority. How amusing. Here's my question:

Why do people receive a modicum of education in a field then suddenly must present themselves as experts?


I would guess it's for the same reasons as why people enjoy devaluing others' achievements - demonstrating your ability to others makes you feel good. And then also, perceiving someone as extremely knowledgeable but knocking them off their high horse also leads to feelings of satisfaction.

In generally, people act more civilized in face-to-face interactions, or in interactions when personal details are tied to the conversation. On a mostly anonymous internet forum, it's easier to strive for good feelings through expressing negativity and superiority towards others.

Believe me, if you touted your qualifications to me in person I'd hold your feet to the fire. Oh, if you'd like some ingame English useage tutorials, I only charge 100 million ISK per half hour.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-05-13 22:13:22 UTC
Is there any credibility to the idea that people who gank/scam/perform delinquint behavior in eve are more likely to express delinquint behavior in real life?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#103 - 2012-05-13 22:20:58 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
Every one has experienced both since there was a time they didn't exist, and also we are not talking about subjective experience, we want objective facts since that what science is about Blink
And what am I doing discussing Ontology on Eve forums Shocked


Well, during my period of nothingness I lacked the sensory inputs, neural connectivities, and hormonal regulation mechanisms necessary for memory formation, so it's kind of fuzzy for me. If you can tell me what it was like that would be great.

Pok Nibin wrote:
Believe me, if you touted your qualifications to me in person I'd hold your feet to the fire. Oh, if you'd like some ingame English useage tutorials, I only charge 100 million ISK per half hour.


I'm not claiming superiority of my qualifications. I'm claiming competence. You seem very eager to demonstrate your own real-life qualifications though. Is it because you take pride in them, or because you doubt their usefulness and want to affirm them?

FeralShadow wrote:
Is there any credibility to the idea that people who gank/scam/perform delinquint behavior in eve are more likely to express delinquint behavior in real life?


EvE is sort of like alcohol - it lowers the barrier of inhibition for performing such activities due to feelings of anonymity, lack of repercussion, and some other weird social dynamics.

There's no correlation between in-game and out of game delinquent behavior any more than there's a correlation between singing Ke$ha on your porch completely shitfaced versus stone cold sober. Sometimes, when there's certain conditions present, it happens. But that doesn't mean it always happens.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#104 - 2012-05-13 23:03:25 UTC
Quote:
There's no correlation between in-game and out of game delinquent behavior any more than there's a correlation between singing Ke$ha on your porch completely shitfaced versus stone cold sober. Sometimes, when there's certain conditions present, it happens. But that doesn't mean it always happens.


Wouldn't saying something definitive like "there is no correlation" require you to have actually experimented and have data?
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#105 - 2012-05-13 23:08:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gahagan
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Wouldn't saying something definitive like "there is no correlation" require you to have actually experimented and have data?


It would if we were talking hard science here, and if you want some sources I can probably provide them. But since the only two groups who talk about video games causing undesirable behavior are politicians and mothers, it's a pretty reasonable assumption to say that it doesn't happen.

Edit: I'm actually going to revise that statement shortly, it's not entirely correct.
Olleybear
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2012-05-13 23:13:29 UTC
Gahagan wrote:

FeralShadow wrote:
Is there any credibility to the idea that people who gank/scam/perform delinquint behavior in eve are more likely to express delinquint behavior in real life?


EvE is sort of like alcohol - it lowers the barrier of inhibition for performing such activities due to feelings of anonymity, lack of repercussion, and some other weird social dynamics.

There's no correlation between in-game and out of game delinquent behavior any more than there's a correlation between singing Ke$ha on your porch completely shitfaced versus stone cold sober. Sometimes, when there's certain conditions present, it happens. But that doesn't mean it always happens.


There is an old saying, Give a man money and/or power and they will become who they really are. In other words, take away the consequences of ones actions, and the person is more likely to do what they really want to do.

Given the lack of consequences in Eve, is it safe to say we are seeing is some people be who they really want to be? That if they had money and/or power in real life and less consequences for their actions as a result, some of these same people would be more likely to be rude/uncaring/dicks because they can get away with it?

( please note that I did say 'some people' and not 'all people' )

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#107 - 2012-05-13 23:21:14 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
There is an old saying, Give a man money and/or power and they will become who they really are. In other words, take away the consequences of ones actions, and the person is more likely to do what they really want to do.

Given the lack of consequences in Eve, is it safe to say we are seeing is some people be who they really want to be? That if they had money and/or power in real life and less consequences for their actions as a result, some of these same people would be more likely to be rude/uncaring/dicks because they can get away with it?

( please note that I did say 'some people' and not 'all people' )


Well, potentially. It gets kind of hazy. I think it would be better to think of it as a spectrum, where everyone would behave in such a way if they could get away with it, but everyone is differentially sensitive to the repercussions of their actions.

Some people don't care if they hurt anyone and do what they want, when they want. Some people are completely paralyzed by the threat of repercussion, and would never act out as long as there was even the slightest chance of getting away with it. Everyone is somewhere on that spectrum, though.

When you take that real life spectrum and move it into a video game, though, that inhibition barrier gets a little lower, and some people who wouldn't do such things in real life do engage in them in the game.

In order to disprove that hypothesis you'd need to find an example of one person who is a huge **** in real life, but not in EvE. It would be interesting to see if such a person exists.
Yuki 0nna
The White Rose Conventicle
#108 - 2012-05-13 23:29:37 UTC
Gahagan wrote:
FeralShadow wrote:
Is there any credibility to the idea that people who gank/scam/perform delinquint behavior in eve are more likely to express delinquent behavior in real life?
There's no correlation between in-game and out of game delinquent behavior.

Note that you do not address the question as FeralShadow actually puts it, in terms of the expression of delinquent behavior, which is quite interesting. You assume he means to ask with respect to engaging in delinquent behavior, and provide the trivially true answer that game players and gaming companies cheer (and readily subsidize).

More reasonable to conclude that the jury is still out on this issue overall, as psychologists, sociologists and social scientists in general, being psychologists, sociologists and social scientists, have almost always insisted on framing the issue the most ass-backward way possible, looking for a correlation between online "behavior," which is more ideation than action, and genuine action in the physical world. Not surprising that in this case, too, it is hard to find a correlation between what people say and what people do; e.g., America's many politician and media "Chicken Hawks" who advocate military adventurism but have never worn the uniform.

More to the point and more interesting to ask to what extent in-game "behavior" as an ideological expression correlates with generally held beliefs that find expression in other arenas of social, political, economic and personal life. Work in this area is really just starting, and too much, to date, has been conducted in terms of "artificial games" rather than the kind of immersive gaming that we all are engaged in. For a fun example of this artificiality, which arises primarily from social scientists aping physical scientists, see "Do Liberals Play Nice? The Effects of Party and Political Ideology in Public Goods and Trust Games"
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#109 - 2012-05-13 23:32:12 UTC
So, a revised statement on video games and delinquent behavior.

There's actually a lot of literature that suggests violent video game playing and video game addiction has some pretty nasty repercussions. See (1), (2), and (3) for examples. However, those aren't unanimous findings, and there may be some benefit to the mental effects of high video game usage (4). This study (5) is pretty interesting, and relevant, because it does suggest some bidirectional causality between tendency to play video games and impulsiveness.

However, none of these studies, nor any others as far as I can tell, are actually looking at behavior WITHIN the game, which is what we'd want to know in order to address the question of whether people who are dicks in EvE are also dicks out of EvE.

So, instead of saying "I don't think so" instead I probably should have said "maybe"

References

(1) http://tinyurl.com/7u25y63
(2) http://tinyurl.com/7mmjbu7
(3) http://tinyurl.com/7lnabqk
(4) http://tinyurl.com/7hgls7m
(5) http://tinyurl.com/7vr5s5f
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#110 - 2012-05-13 23:35:54 UTC
Yuki 0nna wrote:
Gahagan wrote:
FeralShadow wrote:
Is there any credibility to the idea that people who gank/scam/perform delinquint behavior in eve are more likely to express delinquent behavior in real life?
There's no correlation between in-game and out of game delinquent behavior.

Note that you do not address the question as FeralShadow actually puts it, in terms of the expression of delinquent behavior, which is quite interesting. You assume he means to ask with respect to engaging in delinquent behavior, and provide the trivially true answer that game players and gaming companies cheer (and readily subsidize).

More reasonable to conclude that the jury is still out on this issue overall, as psychologists, sociologists and social scientists in general, being psychologists, sociologists and social scientists, have almost always insisted on framing the issue the most ass-backward way possible, looking for a correlation between online "behavior," which is more ideation than action, and genuine action in the physical world. Not surprising that in this case, too, it is hard to find a correlation between what people say and what people do; e.g., America's many politician and media "Chicken Hawks" who advocate military adventurism but have never worn the uniform.

More to the point and more interesting to ask to what extent in-game "behavior" as an ideological expression correlates with generally held beliefs that find expression in other arenas of social, political, economic and personal life. Work in this area is really just starting, and too much, to date, has been conducted in terms of "artificial games" rather than the kind of immersive gaming that we all are engaged in. For a fun example of this artificiality, which arises primarily from social scientists aping physical scientists, see "Do Liberals Play Nice? The Effects of Party and Political Ideology in Public Goods and Trust Games"


Exactly. That's what I realized, unfortunately, after I had already posted it. I'm extremely curious now to see if there's any studies that look at behavior external to a 'game' within a laboratory, such as in MMOs or FPS games. I'm not really too trusting of the external validity of lab games.

I'm going to keep poking around and see if I can find any.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2012-05-13 23:36:04 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Ursula Thrace wrote:
Jacob Stiller wrote:
Look at me! I recently received an undergraduate degree so everyone should take me seriously as an expert in voodoology.


^ this


also OP, i have a serious question. why do some people insist on inserting toilet paper into the holder so that it pulls from the bottom? are they clinically insane?


No. No. No. This question is a waste of the good Sir's time. The real question is, why did this poster and myself pick the Red Team and not the Blue one?



Subconsciously you probably feel that a red banner is a more powerful color then a blue one.
Go ahead... deny it Blink


Hey E.P. You are right, indeed. I think this is also why I picked PWNED Theory (+Elite) as my first PvP Corp (Its image) and RED Galaxy too. ;) Hope you are well...
Yuki 0nna
The White Rose Conventicle
#112 - 2012-05-13 23:36:49 UTC
Doubtless would be interesting reading if I could log in !!!
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#113 - 2012-05-13 23:38:39 UTC
Oh are the permalinks not working? I guess that's still local connections only.

If you want them, let me know. I can get them to you somehow.
Yuki 0nna
The White Rose Conventicle
#114 - 2012-05-13 23:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Yuki 0nna
Gahagan wrote:

Exactly. That's what I realized, unfortunately, after I had already posted it. I'm extremely curious now to see if there's any studies that look at behavior external to a 'game' within a laboratory, such as in MMOs or FPS games. I'm not really too trusting of the external validity of lab games.

I'm going to keep poking around and see if I can find any.


You might contact and ask this guy http://johncartermcknight.com/
Not the greatest fan of EVE, but he's a gamer himself and up on current game-related academic literature and studies as I am not.
He's busy but friendly. Has done back & forth with EVE players on Twitter.
Gahagan
White Moon Aeronautics
#115 - 2012-05-13 23:44:53 UTC
I will do that. I've always wanted to get a real proficiency in the video game literature, but actual work that I'm actually being graded on has always gotten in the way.
Yuki 0nna
The White Rose Conventicle
#116 - 2012-05-13 23:49:51 UTC
Gahagan wrote:
I will do that. I've always wanted to get a real proficiency in the video game literature, but actual work that I'm actually being graded on has always gotten in the way.


Well, that's what grad school is for..... McKnight can tell you about those, too. Lots of interesting programs these days, shadowing what is a huge industry after all, none of which existed in my time.
Macks Artilius
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2012-05-14 03:03:55 UTC
There's a lot of talk of "Sociopaths" in EVE so...

1. Would you say that the mechanics of EVE vs other online games would make it more appealing to sociopaths?

2. How can you "detect" a sociopath vs someone who is just a ****?

3. Why don't animals have wheels?
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#118 - 2012-05-14 04:11:46 UTC
Gahagan wrote:
There's a lot of posts on the forums that theorize why people act they way they do, but that information is seldom accurate and usually speculative. If anyone has any questions on why people behave the way they do, feel free to ask.

You don't know squat.

Also, why am I sexually attracted to female avatars?


Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#119 - 2012-05-14 04:45:36 UTC
I was going to make fun of the OP for the whole Psych degree thing, but then I realized he could have gone with a lit degree, so his choices could have been poorer.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#120 - 2012-05-14 06:17:37 UTC
Yuki 0nna wrote:

You might contact and ask this guy http://johncartermcknight.com/
Not the greatest fan of EVE, but he's a gamer himself and up on current game-related academic literature and studies as I am not.
He's busy but friendly. Has done back & forth with EVE players on Twitter.


I wouldn't since after reading his EVE blog, he apparently straight up lives in making-up-**** opposite-world.

Richard Knight wrote:
a belief that when you sit down at a computer (game), you’re entering another country
- Yeah OK that's the basic point of an RPG. So far, so uncontentious.

Richard Knight wrote:
that country’s denizens have sole jurisdiction over what is or isn’t permissible behavior
- Er, EVE goes further down that road than most but even then the most hardcore players have pretty definite ideas about permissible behaviour concerning real life threats, racism, etc.

Richard Knight wrote:
that country’s denizens can perform “extraordinary rendition” on anyone, any time, because their laws and customs are superior
- Wait what? Where the hell did that come from? Now we're staight up making stuff up here. Do EVE players believe that kill-rights extend across national boundaries? Has Faction Warfare ever spilled across state lines? Yeah actually, no.

Unfortunately this guy, touting himself as a real internet psychologist, has made the same embarrassingly freshman error as all the "internet psychologists" who litter the gaming press and these forums, by confusing their incorrect facts with psychological insight that just so happens to support their prejudices. A smidgen of fact checking would have prevented this guy from smearing his reputation like a paranoid schizophrenic's feces all over my screen.

But who ever does that?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016