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I'm Tired of This Stagnation in Gaming and Entertainment in General

Author
VKhaun Vex
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-05-06 01:36:17 UTC
Sophia Koblenko wrote:
I'm currently playing AC2 as well. Not sure why you think it's a good game. The way the game is made it reminds me of City of Heroes/Villains. Just like CoX its a map with generic npcs and generic quests. Add some da Vinci code-type conspiracy mumbojumo to it and you have AC2.


This is the sea of bullshit that the MMORPG market floats on.

Every MMO is just NPC's and quests. People just play the MMORPG that hits them right. SWTOR, CoH/V, STO, it's not about game mechanics it's about aesthetics, pacing, and it's not about story quality it's about story tone. Silly vs serious, ratio and proportion. Then the people need a reason to justify to themselves why they play it vs the others other than just what they like the style and feel of.

I can't do it anymore. I play CoH/V for my math fix because their new IO set system builds hits me right, and it has lots of customization so I can always look cool in my own eyes. But perpetual characters in and of themselves are no longer enough to satisfy me. I'm not going to keep buying all these new MMO's with fake hooks. Just going to keep messing around on CoH/V until something good comes along.

Watching TSW for it's community. It looks like their intentionally building a stable niche player base from the start, and massive scale PvP so I will buy that and try it. GW2 is trying team mechanics and twitch mechanics all at once. Definitely in on that. The rest can suck it.

Charges Twilight fans with Ka-bar -Surfin's PlunderBunny LIIIIIIIIIIINNEEEEE PIIIEEEECCCCEEE!!!!!!! -Taedrin Using relativity to irrational numbers is smart -rodyas I no longer believe we landed on the moon. -Atticus Fynch

Mirajane Cromwell
#22 - 2012-05-06 05:38:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirajane Cromwell
Flex Mustang wrote:
Well, The Elder Scrolls Online was announced today.

Hopefully they can carry the sandbox feel over to the new MMO.

If you read the articles about it, you'll see that they're dumping the online version down and making WoW/SWTOR clone - there's going to be experience points based levelling (instead of skill based), no realtime combat, instances/raids, predetermined classes, quickbars for spamming actions etc. So they're basically changing everything upside down from those single player The Elder Scrolls games - the backslash from fans is hilarious if you're reading their forums. Big smile

Edit: Forgot to answer to the thread's topic... Roll

Over the years I've seen the mainstream games get more and more linear in content and how they force player to go through the road the developers specified and oh noes if you try to take a side step from that said path (you'll get warnings, turn back notification or your character dies and what not).

It has puzzled me why f.ex. first person shooters are all so linear and yet we got games like Fallout 3 which has huge world to explore and you can still play it as a realtime FPS game. We got technology and game engines capable of creating huge landscapes that give you the immersion feeling but then there's whole bunch of game companies who don't care about these kinds of things (all they want is money and fast) so they keep making small, linear pipe runs and hope that the sheep players will buy all the DLCs and sequels. Current kids probably see this as normal and thus they won't demand any better - when I buy games, I usually choose the ones that have open world, sandbox type gameplay and where I can use multiple routes to achieve the goals. I might buy some linear pipe run games when they're at 75% discount as that's when their price is at right level.
Myxx
The Scope
#23 - 2012-05-06 05:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Mirajane Cromwell wrote:
Flex Mustang wrote:
Well, The Elder Scrolls Online was announced today.

Hopefully they can carry the sandbox feel over to the new MMO.

If you read the articles about it, you'll see that they're dumping the online version down and making WoW/SWTOR clone - there's going to be experience points based levelling (instead of skill based), no realtime combat, instances/raids, predetermined classes, quickbars for spamming actions etc. So they're basically changing everything upside down from those single player The Elder Scrolls games - the backslash from fans is hilarious if you're reading their forums. Big smile

You said all of this and didn't leave a link for the rest of us who dont read forums for games we don't play. Ohwell, I guess the prospect of a sandboxy MMO alternative to EVE is too good to be true.

VKhaun Vex wrote:
Sophia Koblenko wrote:
I'm currently playing AC2 as well. Not sure why you think it's a good game. The way the game is made it reminds me of City of Heroes/Villains. Just like CoX its a map with generic npcs and generic quests. Add some da Vinci code-type conspiracy mumbojumo to it and you have AC2.


This is the sea of bullshit that the MMORPG market floats on.

Every MMO is just NPC's and quests. People just play the MMORPG that hits them right. SWTOR, CoH/V, STO, it's not about game mechanics it's about aesthetics, pacing, and it's not about story quality it's about story tone. Silly vs serious, ratio and proportion. Then the people need a reason to justify to themselves why they play it vs the others other than just what they like the style and feel of.

I can't do it anymore. I play CoH/V for my math fix because their new IO set system builds hits me right, and it has lots of customization so I can always look cool in my own eyes. But perpetual characters in and of themselves are no longer enough to satisfy me. I'm not going to keep buying all these new MMO's with fake hooks. Just going to keep messing around on CoH/V until something good comes along.

Watching TSW for it's community. It looks like their intentionally building a stable niche player base from the start, and massive scale PvP so I will buy that and try it. GW2 is trying team mechanics and twitch mechanics all at once. Definitely in on that. The rest can suck it.


I never played CoX, for a lack of interest in the franchise. When I say I think its a decent game, the requirements to fulfill that for me really aren't that high, considering its a single player game. It really boils down to it having decent writing, decent music and being graphically enjoyable and immersive. I do agree that quest-based experiences need to be looked at and done differently, reinvented as much as the MMO genre needs to be. I think that the (prime) reason they're still around like they are is that its easy and familiar to people who are new to MMOs. I rather ignore them if at all possible. One of the reasons I'm taking a break from SWTOR is that, really, if I have to go through another dang starter zone that is built as a tutorial I'll feel like gouging my eyes out with a blunt object.

I think that one of the things that really needs to be re-worked and looked at with regards to MMOs is the uses of a sandbox providing different methods of progressing, so starter zones (ala EVE's newbie systems) aren't so much tutorials that look different from the actual enviroment and are highly polished (SWTOR, Korriban for example), but that they're apart of the enviroment that happen to have tutorials in them.

One of my favorite moments in online gaming was starting SW:G in that the tutorial was helpful (for the first iteration, back in 2003-4) to new people, but could be skipped in and of itself in lieu for being tossed out into the open to do what you liked. Its novel, now, because it could be skipped and because it was somewhat unique as far as MMO tutorials go. Hell, SWG was an oddball for MMOs in that it and EVE are really the only two prime examples of really good sandboxes.

It saddens me that there aren't more, and I'm afraid that maybe the reason for that is because dev houses are scared of them.
Mirajane Cromwell
#24 - 2012-05-06 05:57:08 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Mirajane Cromwell wrote:
Flex Mustang wrote:
Well, The Elder Scrolls Online was announced today.

Hopefully they can carry the sandbox feel over to the new MMO.

If you read the articles about it, you'll see that they're dumping the online version down and making WoW/SWTOR clone - there's going to be experience points based levelling (instead of skill based), no realtime combat, instances/raids, predetermined classes, quickbars for spamming actions etc. So they're basically changing everything upside down from those single player The Elder Scrolls games - the backslash from fans is hilarious if you're reading their forums. Big smile

You said all of this and didn't leave a link for the rest of us who dont read forums for games we don't play. Ohwell, I guess the prospect of a sandboxy MMO alternative to EVE is too good to be true.

Sorry, link to their forums is here
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-05-06 06:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
Very few people liked SWTOR.

Check out GW2 if you like third-person MMORPGs and want something fresh and well designed. I checked out Tera, similar in concept, not as good in execution.

I'm curious about The Secret World.

Otherwise, yes. The MMO game market is sadly watered down. As for other releases in the past year or so, Skyrim was fun, but a pale shadow of the previous installments in the series (freedom-wise). Shooters aren't really making money unless they're a big name series...which is sad, because those series aren't very good anymore (BF3 was fun, but Bad Company 2 was better and had better balance, m60 aside)...yeah.

I haven't tried any of the MOBA games, my friends love them. And it's been a long time since I've played any single player games, which I'm doing currently.

Also, if you're curious, you should check out the top 100 list on Reddit. (while you're at it, check out the top 100 books and movies too...and maybe read some science articles...share pictures of your cat...)

Edit: Also, I straight up stopped buying EA ****. Missing out on ME3, but oh well.

Hello, hello again.

VKhaun Vex
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-05-06 08:38:10 UTC
Myxx wrote:
[quote=Mirajane Cromwell]I think that one of the things that really needs to be re-worked and looked at with regards to MMOs is the uses of a sandbox providing different methods of progressing, so starter zones (ala EVE's newbie systems) aren't so much tutorials that look different from the actual enviroment and are highly polished (SWTOR, Korriban for example), but that they're apart of the enviroment that happen to have tutorials in them.

One of my favorite moments in online gaming was starting SW:G in that the tutorial was helpful (for the first iteration, back in 2003-4) to new people, but could be skipped in and of itself in lieu for being tossed out into the open to do what you liked. Its novel, now, because it could be skipped and because it was somewhat unique as far as MMO tutorials go. Hell, SWG was an oddball for MMOs in that it and EVE are really the only two prime examples of really good sandboxes.

It saddens me that there aren't more, and I'm afraid that maybe the reason for that is because dev houses are scared of them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8FpigqfcvlM

<3

Charges Twilight fans with Ka-bar -Surfin's PlunderBunny LIIIIIIIIIIINNEEEEE PIIIEEEECCCCEEE!!!!!!! -Taedrin Using relativity to irrational numbers is smart -rodyas I no longer believe we landed on the moon. -Atticus Fynch

Sardon Darkstar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-06 11:20:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Sardon Darkstar
My 2 cents, for what they're worth:

1) I chose to install Steam because I thought it's a neat service with some interesting deals every now and then. Not because it was required in order to play a particular game. I was very much looking forward to BF3 and even more so to ME3, until I learned that these games cannot be played without having Origin installed. So, goodbye BF3 and ME3. I'm not going to be forced to install crap I do not want in order to use software that I frikken paid for!

2) I remember when Perpetual Entertainment announced they were going to make ST:O. I joined a community forum where many interested Trekkies and MMO gamers exchanged ideas and expectations, even the guys from PE joined and gave us the feeling we were actually helping shape the new game. "Please, don't make it a WoW-in-space game" was our biggest concern. How disappointed we were.

I'll just stick with Eve, BFBC2 and Witcher 2.
Myxx
The Scope
#28 - 2012-05-06 20:32:01 UTC
VKhaun Vex wrote:
Myxx wrote:
I think that one of the things that really needs to be re-worked and looked at with regards to MMOs is the uses of a sandbox providing different methods of progressing, so starter zones (ala EVE's newbie systems) aren't so much tutorials that look different from the actual enviroment and are highly polished (SWTOR, Korriban for example), but that they're apart of the enviroment that happen to have tutorials in them.

One of my favorite moments in online gaming was starting SW:G in that the tutorial was helpful (for the first iteration, back in 2003-4) to new people, but could be skipped in and of itself in lieu for being tossed out into the open to do what you liked. Its novel, now, because it could be skipped and because it was somewhat unique as far as MMO tutorials go. Hell, SWG was an oddball for MMOs in that it and EVE are really the only two prime examples of really good sandboxes.

It saddens me that there aren't more, and I'm afraid that maybe the reason for that is because dev houses are scared of them.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8FpigqfcvlM

<3

Yes. Mind. Blown. Awesome example of what I meant.
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#29 - 2012-05-06 21:36:18 UTC
Degren wrote:
I'm curious about The Secret World.


The theme is right up my alley, so i'm pretty curious as well. Already signed up for beta, but i think they're only choosing beta participants who play their browser game using facebook, and i'll never have a facebook page.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi

NeoShocker
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#30 - 2012-05-07 14:04:33 UTC
Degren wrote:
Very few people liked SWTOR.

Edit: Also, I straight up stopped buying EA ****. Missing out on ME3, but oh well.


You aint the only one that is missing out ME3, especially BF3 where I was super Excited for. :-) Death to EA!

stoicfaux
#31 - 2012-05-07 14:48:36 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Degren wrote:
I'm curious about The Secret World.


The theme is right up my alley, so i'm pretty curious as well. Already signed up for beta, but i think they're only choosing beta participants who play their browser game using facebook, and i'll never have a facebook page.

Not true.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Bane Necran
Appono Astos
#32 - 2012-05-07 16:13:14 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Bane Necran wrote:
Degren wrote:
I'm curious about The Secret World.


The theme is right up my alley, so i'm pretty curious as well. Already signed up for beta, but i think they're only choosing beta participants who play their browser game using facebook, and i'll never have a facebook page.

Not true.


I'm going to have a facebook page someday? Shocked

Been signed up for the beta since the very first day it opened, August of last year. And have heard nary a word back.

Maybe it's run by the real Illuminati, and they're intentionally keeping me out.

"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existence, principle has existence, the Way has existence, spirit is nothingness." ~Miyamoto Musashi

Reiisha
#33 - 2012-05-07 21:59:20 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
Vanilla skyrim is ok.

It's really all about the mods. If you aren't running at least 60 core mods you're doing it wrong.


IMHO, Skyrim is the first TES game where mods aren't really necessary.

Despite availability of mods i'm still playing largely vanilla.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-05-08 04:51:27 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Degren wrote:
I'm curious about The Secret World.


The theme is right up my alley, so i'm pretty curious as well. Already signed up for beta, but i think they're only choosing beta participants who play their browser game using facebook, and i'll never have a facebook page.


Hey, Bane...check your e-mail.

A bunch of invites went out today!

Hello, hello again.

Alrione
Black Lagoon Inc.
#35 - 2012-05-10 09:23:06 UTC
Good thing Tera online doesn't have body looting.

But in relation to the topic, yes a lot of games now just copy-paste the safe formula for making money and dont really bother to do things in new or interesting ways.
Also it seems that gaming becoming even more popular had adverse effect on difficulty, the latest favourite industry buzzword "cinematic experience" is just a fancy way of saying "hey we dumbed down game so much it practically plays itself".
Exploration and discovery have been pretty much eradicated by games doing massive on screen messages of "hey do this and look there and it will "
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-05-10 11:48:31 UTC
What's really amusing to me are the games copy/pasting and missing some key points when hitting Ctrl+V.

That is, so many clones are just worse than the source. Usually it's combat pace or art style, but some games just seriously mess up on all fronts.

I played some bad games back in the day that I'm still nostalgic about. I couldn't give two ***** about any of the recent, bad MMOs I've played.

Hello, hello again.

AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#37 - 2012-05-10 12:04:39 UTC
Myxx wrote:
There is a commonly held opinion that people don't want anything new, they want the same old **** tossed into a blender and forcefed to them.

Bullshit.


Not totally.

I recently purchased SSX, because I liked the original.

I think it's situational overall; you wouldn't expect a comedy to get a sequel and for it to be turned into a horror, would you?

When I go and see the new American Pie movie, I wouldn't expect Stiffler to be a responsible adult in his 30's, I'd expect him to be the same contemptous fuckin' ******* he's always been.

AK


This space for rent.

Myxx
The Scope
#38 - 2012-05-10 12:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
AlleyKat wrote:
Myxx wrote:
There is a commonly held opinion that people don't want anything new, they want the same old **** tossed into a blender and forcefed to them.

Bullshit.


Not totally.

I recently purchased SSX, because I liked the original.

I think it's situational overall; you wouldn't expect a comedy to get a sequel and for it to be turned into a horror, would you?

When I go and see the new American Pie movie, I wouldn't expect Stiffler to be a responsible adult in his 30's, I'd expect him to be the same contemptous fuckin' ******* he's always been.

AK



Granted, there are exceptions, but by and large companies are playing it too safe and its uninteresting as hell. I've had a couple friends suggest I should try the secret world or tera online. I had to tell them I wouldn't because, very simply, I won't try another until a) one of the MMOs im playing goes down forever, or b) something genuinely good comes along. I was kinda hoping that Ralph Koster's Metaplace could be something interesting - and, what little of it that I got to try during closed testing was decidedly differently - but that flatlined.

I'm tired of games calling themselves 'new' or 'different' when its the same old **** tossed into a blender. If I want WoW or EQ redux, I'll go play WoW or EQ1/2. Guess what I'm not playing? WoW and EQ. EVE is going on Ten years old next year, that has only been accomplished by EQ and as far as I know, UO before. I like to think thats because its doing something different than everyone else, and is capable of keeping things interesting. Sadly, if you look at almost every other MMO around, they're all flatlining or slowly declining.

I wonder how long it'll be before more developers start trying to revisit the sandbox model? Because so far, things haven't worked too well for the 'safe' model.
Ketha Adami
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-05-11 07:52:55 UTC
Myxx wrote:
So, I was going to buy skyrim before I learned that it requires installing Steam. I don't like Valve for reasons that have nothing to do with this, so instead I bought and tried Assassin's Creed 2. Between my frequent afking for real life stuff, I really don't have much time on my hands as of late. So, as a single player RPG, it fits.

I'm absolutely loving it. My main problem with many RPGs (and, for that matter, MMORPGs - Hello, WoW, STO, SWG, SWTOR, AOC, etc) is that they build their enviroments as something that is "just there" as opposed to something the player interacts with - a means to an end - that make for things being possible that are quite interesting and in a sense, dynamic.

There is a commonly held opinion that people don't want anything new, they want the same old **** tossed into a blender and forcefed to them.

Bullshit.

The thing I like about Assassin's Creed is the fact that the world shaping allows for many different methods to solving a problem whereas, for example in something like Mass Effect, or KOTOR1/2.. you're led down a hallway with a facade of it having an impact on things. The problem, likewise with Starwars Galaxies was that the worlds were basically flat save for terrain modifications and buildings. You couldn't, for an absurd example, sit on top of the Wayfar cantina while waiting for someone. Likewise, body disposal in AC2 can be pretty easy, as far as just dumping people into rivers/oceans/ponds or whatever. EVE devs, take note: When WIS comes out, I've got a list of people I want to toss out of the airlock of my ship or the station I reside in - this isn't a must, but it would make me (and im sure many others) very, very happy.

Thats my other gripe, many MMORPGs are erring on the side of controlling/protecting players from other players and themselves. For example in SWG, you could actually manufacture houses and other stuff for use in world (kind of like starbases in EVE, except houses in SWG weren't a huge pain in the ass and having one was actually pretty cool at times). They do this for fear of the creative ways we can collectively come up with to screw with each other. In turn, this excessive control hurts them (Hello, WoW, SWTOR - and quite possibly EVE. Hi Greyscale - we'll see).

Point is, sandboxes are awesome and should be used more with functions that promote creative things being done to people by other people. Games like WoW or SWTOR are fun for some and could be enjoyable, if you're into them - I am, at times, I admit - but the more that tools and functions reside with the player being given as many choices as possible - game functionality and otherwise, the better.

Don't get me started on UI and modification, thats for another time, hahaha.



You might be interested in reading this:

http://www.homeoftheunderdogs.net/scratch.php

It's basically a manifesto written by several programmers that talks about the lack of creativity in the industry as software companies are bought out by Big Corporations that are only interested in making a profit by churning out copies of the latest 'big thing'.

Quite an enlighening read, and one I recommend for anyone interested in the current state of the industry.
AlleyKat
The Unwanted.
#40 - 2012-05-13 11:47:14 UTC
Ketha Adami wrote:


You might be interested in reading this:

http://www.homeoftheunderdogs.net/scratch.php

It's basically a manifesto written by several programmers that talks about the lack of creativity in the industry as software companies are bought out by Big Corporations that are only interested in making a profit by churning out copies of the latest 'big thing'.

Quite an enlightening read, and one I recommend for anyone interested in the current state of the industry.


I'll translate that for anyone who doesn't want to read it:

Reverse snobbery.

Never before have I read something so self-obsessed and insular, with extensive emo tears leaking out of each poorly constructed paragraph. It was offensive to read.

At one point, I beleived there would be a link to where they are going to commit mass-suicide and a map on how to get there.

blurgh.

AK

This space for rent.

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