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Fix the TiDi please
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#141 - 2012-05-13 09:51:32 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
You as the player create requests and by interacting with the client, which sends them to the server. Lag means that you cannot send requests at a normal speed
Incorrect. Lag means you're sending requests at your normal speed, but the server drops/forgets/ignores/leaves them for much much later. Lag doesn't mean your requests are being slowed down — it means they are entering an indeterminate queue that might, with a bit of luck, at some point be processed (unless the server decides that it has better things to do).

Quote:
With TiDi do you have no real lag, but you are still being slowed down.
No. There is no “still” about it. With TiDi, you're acting in slow motion. With lag, you're not — your acting at normal speed, but very erratically and possibly without you ever knowing it (because you're not getting any updates).

Quote:
It does not slow down the node.
It slows down the simulation running on the node, yes.

Quote:
It has a very similar effect to real lag.
It has pretty much none of the effects of lag (there is no “unreal” lag, so calling it “real” is redundant). What it does is actually create the effects of no lag where lag should otherwise exist. You do not suffer the dropped packets; you do not suffer the communication blackouts; you do not suffer the delayed responses; you do not suffer the lack of feedback. Instead, you get all of that and lets you play normally except for a slow-motion effect.

Quote:
It only manages and warns players in a graceful way
No. It slows down the server's simulation and syncs up the client's simulation so it does the same. It doesn't warn anyone since, on the client side, it's just a real-to-simulated-time-ratio meter. Again, it's still real lag. TiDi just removes the nasty effects of it by ensuring that the server doesn't get completely lost in that high-lag environment.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-05-13 09:53:48 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…and TiDi doesn't do that. Also, if the warning comes afterwards, it's not early.

It warns from a growing lag.

Nope.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
The node responds more slowly. The client lets you rotate your camera only slowly, etc. Not "quite the opposite", or do you see your spaceship having an increased rate of fire? This would be quite the opposite.

What the **** are you on? The client lets me rotate my camera just as quickly as I'd like.

It sounds like you're talking out your ass from back when CCP first tested tidi on sisi.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
This only means that it is not your success. And you are wrong to believe that TiDi lets you win a fight more often.

It lets both sides have an actual fight and win/lose based on what they brought, instead of who were in the system first. I.e. it's a much more fair way of reacting to a large fight.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2012-05-13 09:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
TWHC Assistant wrote:
It warns from a growing lag.
Nope. It just says how much slower the simulation is running than usual. It says absolutely nothing about the lag.

Quote:
The node responds more slowly.
Nope. The node response more quickly and more reliably, because you don't have to wait in line (and possibly get lost) while the server is processing your request. The client does quite the opposite of what you're saying: it responds more quickly, not more slowly.

Quote:
This only means that it is not your success.
Nope. It means it's my success since I'm now allowed to do the things I do to win, rather than lose by default since I'm looking at a black screen while they shoot me.

Quote:
I got a 2 week ban for making jokes on gingers. Happens...
It happens if you're a troll, yes. This isn't the first time you've been mass-gagged, now is it? Isn't it about time you learn to keep your gob shut and not expose the vacuum behind your frontal bone quite as much?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#144 - 2012-05-13 09:57:13 UTC
I almost forgot, on the "early warning system" nonsense...

It is not (and was never intended to be) a way to convince players to stop doing what they are doing because they are causing lag.

TiDi enables play to continue despite high lag conditions.

Quite a different thing.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-05-13 10:00:02 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
You really, really don't understand what TiDi does, do you?


Why I'm still on station? 20+ minutes and waiting.

Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#146 - 2012-05-13 10:02:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.
Well, they did have a few collisions between TiDi and Crimewatch, but most of them were nuked during Burn Jita… and Crimewatch in and of itself has historically been a nice lagbandit in empire space.

…his problems still sound like something quite different, though. It sounds more like some kind of desynch or faulty packets being thrown out.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2012-05-13 10:02:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.


This is abit strange. I even click Undock every now and then just in case request got lost somewhere.
Danfen Fenix
#148 - 2012-05-13 10:05:40 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.


This is abit strange. I even click Undock every now and then just in case request got lost somewhere.


Well that wont be helping, as you're sending a new request every time you do that (and possibly? cancelling your old request) Roll

Press it once, and go make some tea or something, mayby read a book? Heck, read about TiDi in the meantime, you might learn something Smile
TWHC Assistant
#149 - 2012-05-13 10:06:02 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I almost forgot, on the "early warning system" nonsense...

It is not (and was never intended to be) a way to convince players to stop doing what they are doing because they are causing lag.

TiDi enables play to continue despite high lag conditions.

Quite a different thing.

No, not a different thing, only a different view. You can ignore the warning of course and push TiDi all the way.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#150 - 2012-05-13 10:11:33 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
No, not a different thing, only a different view.
…except that it's a different thing. A warning is meant to, you know, warn you. TiDi just measures things and tells you that the server is handling it.

Quote:
You can ignore the warning of course and push TiDi all the way.
Since that's the whole reason for having TiDi, people will indeed push it.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#151 - 2012-05-13 10:12:01 UTC
Better this than black screen
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-05-13 10:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Oh, really? That's funny, the longest I've had to wait in a 10% dilated system was less than a minute. Granted, that was nullsec, but I doubt the code for moving your brain from one node to another is any different depending on security status.


This is abit strange. I even click Undock every now and then just in case request got lost somewhere.

If that is the case, then I guess you should send a bugreport to CCP, because the most lag I ever saw during that entire fight was right as it fired off, where my guns wouldn't recognize that they'd finished cycling for, oh I dunno, 10-15 seconds. Other than that the lag itself was negiligible.

Danfen Fenix wrote:
Well that wont be helping, as you're sending a new request every time you do that (and possibly? cancelling your old request) Roll

Press it once, and go make some tea or something, mayby read a book? Heck, read about TiDi in the meantime, you might learn something Smile

Nope, that's exactly what TiDi is supposed to alleviate. If he isn't just trolling, then he should tell CCP about it because then it probably is a bug somewhere, and it should be looked at.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I almost forgot, on the "early warning system" nonsense...

It is not (and was never intended to be) a way to convince players to stop doing what they are doing because they are causing lag.

TiDi enables play to continue despite high lag conditions.

Quite a different thing.

No, not a different thing, only a different view. You can ignore the warning of course and push TiDi all the way.

No, no it really isn't a different view, and it really isn't a warning.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2012-05-13 10:22:39 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I almost forgot, on the "early warning system" nonsense...

It is not (and was never intended to be) a way to convince players to stop doing what they are doing because they are causing lag.

TiDi enables play to continue despite high lag conditions.

Quite a different thing.

No, not a different thing, only a different view. You can ignore the warning of course and push TiDi all the way.



No not really.

I've been in a couple fights where multiple thousand ships were zinging around, fights happening on multiple grids ect. TiDi peaks when fleets are entering or leaving the system, once everyone that is there is there, if drops a bit. You want to see TiDi jump through the ceiling, get 7-800 heads gate crashing (yes, it happens) INSTANT 10% even though you may have just left system with 900 ships ducking it out....that was sitting on 75-80% TiDi

...and to be fair TiDi isn't lag though the effect is similar, lag sucks....modual may or may not turn on and off, auto-repeat may or may not work things happen in the wrong order while the server getting things lost in all of the throttling, it suck.

TiDi is simply slowing the logical node so that lag doesn't actually manifest, everything happens, as ordered, in the RIGHT order, the client is simply going slower so that they server doesn't crash. There is a distinct difference, lag is actually latency, the server gets crushed and it takes longer and longer to function is the processor throttle under the load. TiDi is changing the apparently speed so on the client side more things can happen between client updates.

Yes, its a bandaid, but dynamic loadsharing for real time applications is EXTREMELY difficult. I'm sure they are working on it......so are a LOT of other people.
TWHC Assistant
#154 - 2012-05-13 10:25:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Incorrect.

No. Your client often has to wait for a response and cannot send further requests until the server has processed the previous requests. Thus the requests send by the client are slowing down, meaning, the client is sending less requests.

Tippia wrote:
No. There is no “still” about it.

Yes, you, the player, are still being slowed down regardless if you are experiencing real lag or TiDi. The node can only process so many client requests.

Tippia wrote:
It slows down the simulation running on the node, yes.

I am still talking of the node's ability to process requests.

Tippia wrote:
It has pretty much none of the effects of lag

If you cannot understand it this way then ask yourself if the node has gotten faster in its ability to process requests when TiDi is active.

Tippia wrote:
No. It slows down the server's simulation and syncs up the client's simulation so it does the same. It doesn't warn anyone since, on the client side, it's just a real-to-simulated-time-ratio meter. Again, it's still real lag. TiDi just removes the nasty effects of it by ensuring that the server doesn't get completely lost in that high-lag environment.

This is what managing means. And servers do not get lost. They can be found in the server room unless someone took them.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-05-13 10:27:18 UTC
Wow...


Talk about getting the bit in the teeth.
TWHC Assistant
#156 - 2012-05-13 10:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: TWHC Assistant
Onictus wrote:
No not really.

Lord Zim wrote:
No, no it really isn't a different view, and it really isn't a warning.

You are free to ignore it. It still warns you about your game slowing down. If you enjoy it or find it pretty is entirely up to you. Maybe you are slow and the game has got too many buttons for you and like a slower game. Everyone is different. I see it as a warning system.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#157 - 2012-05-13 10:32:12 UTC
Posting in a stealth Nerf Goons thread.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-05-13 10:33:49 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Incorrect.

No. Your client often has to wait for a response and cannot send further requests until the server has processed the previous requests. Thus the requests send by the client are slowing down, meaning, the client is sending less requests.

Wait, what? My client has to wait for a response because of TiDi? Since when?

TWHC Assistant wrote:
Yes, you, the player, are still being slowed down regardless if you are experiencing real lag or TiDi. The node can only process so many client requests.

That's not lag.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
I am still talking of the node's ability to process requests.

And that's still not lag.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
If you cannot understand it this way then ask yourself if the node has gotten faster in its ability to process requests when TiDi is active.

That has nothing to do with lag. Slowing down the server-side simulation reduces lag.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-05-13 10:34:23 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Onictus wrote:
No not really.

Lord Zim wrote:
No, no it really isn't a different view, and it really isn't a warning.

You are free to ignore it. It still warns you about your game slowing down. If you enjoy it or find it pretty is entirely up to you. Maybe you are slow and the game has got too many buttons for you and like a slower game. Everyone is different. I see it as a warning system.

It's not a warning system. It's not lag. You're still dumb.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2012-05-13 10:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Onictus wrote:
No not really.

Lord Zim wrote:
No, no it really isn't a different view, and it really isn't a warning.

You are free to ignore it. It still warns you about your game slowing down. If you enjoy it or find it pretty is entirely up to you. Maybe you are slow and the game has got too many buttons for you and like a slower game. Everyone is different.



Its not a warning, its a response.

So far as I know the server hasn't crashed from a really big fight since TiDI came online, so in that regard its working pretty well. Now remember, CCP CAN'T reinforce a node with the server online, it has to happen during downtime, so If you can't provide pre-downtime warning, TiDi for many systems is what you are going to get. The way the cluster works is that each blade is running 70 (I think they said) systems. So when I fight happens in 1 system a bunch of others are affected performance wise.

Those systems aren't geographically related in game, they may be two systems apart, they may be two regions apart.

Jita doesn't "bleed over" because its always on its own node, likewise when you can give them warning they have a "super node" for the system that the fight happens in.