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[Proposal] Reduce the ISK cost for clones
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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-05-10 17:16:37 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:

I am still waiting to hear a viable argument as to why this is a good or balanced mechanic and should stay as it is



Let us know how that works out for you since your refusing to read.

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Mushroom Dealer
Mushroom Cult
#22 - 2012-05-10 18:02:40 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Mushroom Dealer wrote:

I am still waiting to hear a viable argument as to why this is a good or balanced mechanic and should stay as it is



Let us know how that works out for you since your refusing to read.



ehm, I answered your so called argument, and if you didnt get what I was saying, the 30mill is not gonna make me any more reckless, im still gonna loose my implants(player generated) and ship+fittings(player generated) I'm just not gonna put 30mill into a pointless sink, and I will have more flexibility when it comes to what I can fly, and where I fly (if I dont have implants) without having to put those 30 mill into the sink (i.e dictor in fleet battles) If people get more reckless on the account of those 30mill they are just plain dumb.

So yeah I read your argument/claim, I just don't evaluate it as viable since it is illogical from my point of view. It could be that I am wrong though, I cant predict how players behave, people might start using suicide rookie ships to have more or less no loss in 0.0 battles... it possible... eve is full of dumb people apparently....
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-05-10 18:21:40 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Mushroom Dealer wrote:

I am still waiting to hear a viable argument as to why this is a good or balanced mechanic and should stay as it is



Let us know how that works out for you since your refusing to read.



ehm, I answered your so called argument, and if you didnt get what I was saying, the 30mill is not gonna make me any more reckless, im still gonna loose my implants(player generated) and ship+fittings(player generated) I'm just not gonna put 30mill into a pointless sink, and I will have more flexibility when it comes to what I can fly, and where I fly (if I dont have implants) without having to put those 30 mill into the sink (i.e dictor in fleet battles) If people get more reckless on the account of those 30mill they are just plain dumb.

So yeah I read your argument/claim, I just don't evaluate it as viable since it is illogical from my point of view. It could be that I am wrong though, I cant predict how players behave, people might start using suicide rookie ships to have more or less no loss in 0.0 battles... it possible... eve is full of dumb people apparently....


We call that selective reading loss or sheer dumb ignorance.

Go re-read my posts again and maybe you'll see the very small point you continue to ignore.

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Mushroom Dealer
Mushroom Cult
#24 - 2012-05-10 19:14:16 UTC
I re-read all your posts Drake Draconis, and I still dont se any point you make that I havent already adressed.

Quote:
Because the assumption is they figure you know how to make that kind of money very quickly considering the amount of time you put in.


do I need to explain this again? If this is the reason why, then they should definitley fix it. As I've said several times, I dont mind payikng for player built stuff but I hate isk sinks. Is your reasoning that since a high SP char knows how to make ISK fast they should be "taxed" every time they loose a clone? Clones have no real value other than keeping skillpoints witch is more or less what I pay my monthly fee to get, and they want me to pay isk to keep them if I dont want to stay in empire and mine veldspar?

your driving/gas analogy is so meaningless im not even going to adress it.

Quote:
The point is not a matter of cost or you having to pay less or more for the privilage.

The point is COMMON SENSE IN HOW YOU SPEND THAT ISK.


Ok, it may be that since im not native english I have a problem getting what you mean here, but if im reading this right my answer is: Why should it be a privilage for me to keep my skillpoints if I get podded? why do I need to pay 30 ******* million isk to not loose 2-3 months of training. As far as I can see you claim that high SP = lots of ISK. And that is simply an assumption that I think is wrong, and if its right those that have alot of isk dont care for the 30 mill and people like me that dont have alot of isk suffer the penalties.

Quote:
Your blaming your frequency of expenses over your deaths in game over the fact the game is punnishing you with cost.

You know what? It should be like that....period. If you want to go blow yourself up recklessly for lol's and grins then you damn well better make each-and-every-one count.


What? when did I do this? I never said I liked dieing recklessly, my efficiency is 98.5% on the killboard, I do however hate using 30mill on the god damn SP clone the times I die, and yeas I would like to be able to podjump more when im in unimplanted clones.

Quote:
You wana go recklessly forth and put your expensive brains in an high risk environment then you damn well better get used to the fact its gonna cost you.


I am, I am paying for the ships and all of the fittings, and I do it with a smile, because I know a happy player somewhere is gonna log in and see I bought new stuff from him. I do not however like paying 30mill to ccp to be able to keep my skillpoints witch I ******* paid hard cash for!

Quote:
Now as I've said before If youve been paying attention and actaully reading while flapping your gums in your little whine fest....I'm in favor of adjusting the costs personally..but I'm not going to support this because overall this is a balance mechanic that is needed to keep you super SP pilots in check.

One would think your experince and practice would make you a better pilot...not a reckless one.



I've also adressed this if you didnt read it I'll repeat it. My so called super SP clone has about 10% effective sp in a dictor so why exactly does it need to be kept in check? Shouldnt I at least be rewared with the versatlity of fleetpositions I am able to fly when I have put that much training towards that goal without having to pay 30mill if I get podded in a bubble.


Did I miss anything? if so feel free to be more clear about exactly what you argumen is!
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2012-05-10 20:52:43 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Mushroom Dealer wrote:


I am still waiting to hear a viable argument as to why this is a good or balanced mechanic and should stay as it is



Really? Because I'm waiting for the opposite. You haven't provided a good enough reason yet.



how about you learn to read? but ill list them as well as provide a couple more.

* game has enough isk sinks
* Limits my ability to pod myself to different locations when im in an unimplanted clone, because im not a rich player even though I have alot of skillpoints
* For the same reason makes me more likely to fly ships that have a better survivability rate than say dictors and ceptors assfrigs and other stuff that are likely to die in bubbles.
* These clones are litteraly more expensive than alot of shiptypes in the game
* There is more or less no drawbacks to changing this other than mabye the ability to move huge amount of players from one side of space to another, but then again these people would all need to be in unimplanted clones for not to loose much and you can still do this pretty cheap in low sp alts.
* I feel the mechanic is punishing people that focus training on one character instead of using alot of alts for different purposes (see my post above about my skill distrubution)
* The survivability of a clone is extremely low when popped in a bubble and the pricetag punishment is unreasonable imo


so I ask again is there any reason as to why these prices should stay as they are? other than "eve should be hard" because I'm all for that I like that eve is punishing and hard, but I dont feel like I get my money's worth for 30million when all I get is to keep my skillpoints if I die.... then again 30mill+ clones could get a built in interdictor nullifier :-D that would make it worth 30mill.... (that was sarcasm in case anybody didnt get that)


* No it doesn't, hence the inflation we're seeing.
*This is working as intended. We have jump clones and the delay they involve for a reason
*That's your problem, not a problem with game mechanics
* So what?
*You don't think it's a drawback to allow me to instantly move across the galaxy several times a day? You don't understand power projection, do you.
*That's how you feel, I feel that you are wrong. If you have that many skillpoints, you can make that much isk very quickly.
* That's called a consequence. EVE has those. Stop trying to remove them.
Mushroom Dealer
Mushroom Cult
#26 - 2012-05-10 21:37:27 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:


1 No it doesn't, hence the inflation we're seeing.
2 This is working as intended. We have jump clones and the delay they involve for a reason
3 That's your problem, not a problem with game mechanics
4 So what?
5 You don't think it's a drawback to allow me to instantly move across the galaxy several times a day? You don't understand power projection, do you.
6 That's how you feel, I feel that you are wrong. If you have that many skillpoints, you can make that much isk very quickly.
7 That's called a consequence. EVE has those. Stop trying to remove them.


1: valid point, though I'm not certain lack of sinks is the reason, im willing to accept your argument. Remember they just had a mass kick of botters and removed the drone materials, thats a HUGE impact on mineral prices, hence the price bump in ship costs. so its not certain that its a lack of isk sinks. Best isk sink is ships destroyed and we all want more of that!

2: jump clones protect implants, pod jumping dont, so some limitation would still be in place. Im also not asking for removal of the isk price of clones, merly reduce at least the high price ones, aggreed that my original suggestion of 1/10 might be a bit much.

3: Yes its my problem and its caused by this game mechanic witch I want to change.

4: It's silly that you clone that only protect you skillpoints cost more than the ship I was flying when I died, but yeah thats only my subjective oppinion as everything about the game is.

5 well yeah, mabye it would. you can still do this with pretty cheap clones on low SP alts anyway, and there is no problem for an alliance to have a certified alt that can fly a full fledged drake or something and have clones around the galaxy for a million or three a pod. They do however not do this, probably because people like to use implants and those are not protected when podding.

6: There is very little isk/SP ratio when you get above a certain point in SP if you have a little bit of focus in training, that cloneprice would probably amount to about 4-8mill. Say if you rat it would probably take you about an hour to pay for your clone, and yeah I feel that is a bit over the edge.

7: I know and as stated above that is what I love about the game, though tbh my limit is at my skillpoints since there is no other way of getting them back then to pay and skill for months. The ship/fitting/implants is enough. It's enough hastle to get the isk back from those losses.

I'll agree mabye 1/10th is a bit over the edge, 1/3 might be enough to cut the prices, or even just making the highest clones cheaper, the ladder is a bit steep imo.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#27 - 2012-05-10 22:37:34 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:


1 No it doesn't, hence the inflation we're seeing.
2 This is working as intended. We have jump clones and the delay they involve for a reason
3 That's your problem, not a problem with game mechanics
4 So what?
5 You don't think it's a drawback to allow me to instantly move across the galaxy several times a day? You don't understand power projection, do you.
6 That's how you feel, I feel that you are wrong. If you have that many skillpoints, you can make that much isk very quickly.
7 That's called a consequence. EVE has those. Stop trying to remove them.


1: valid point, though I'm not certain lack of sinks is the reason, im willing to accept your argument. Remember they just had a mass kick of botters and removed the drone materials, thats a HUGE impact on mineral prices, hence the price bump in ship costs. so its not certain that its a lack of isk sinks. Best isk sink is ships destroyed and we all want more of that!

2: jump clones protect implants, pod jumping dont, so some limitation would still be in place. Im also not asking for removal of the isk price of clones, merly reduce at least the high price ones, aggreed that my original suggestion of 1/10 might be a bit much.

3: Yes its my problem and its caused by this game mechanic witch I want to change.

4: It's silly that you clone that only protect you skillpoints cost more than the ship I was flying when I died, but yeah thats only my subjective oppinion as everything about the game is.

5 well yeah, mabye it would. you can still do this with pretty cheap clones on low SP alts anyway, and there is no problem for an alliance to have a certified alt that can fly a full fledged drake or something and have clones around the galaxy for a million or three a pod. They do however not do this, probably because people like to use implants and those are not protected when podding.

6: There is very little isk/SP ratio when you get above a certain point in SP if you have a little bit of focus in training, that cloneprice would probably amount to about 4-8mill. Say if you rat it would probably take you about an hour to pay for your clone, and yeah I feel that is a bit over the edge.

7: I know and as stated above that is what I love about the game, though tbh my limit is at my skillpoints since there is no other way of getting them back then to pay and skill for months. The ship/fitting/implants is enough. It's enough hastle to get the isk back from those losses.

I'll agree mabye 1/10th is a bit over the edge, 1/3 might be enough to cut the prices, or even just making the highest clones cheaper, the ladder is a bit steep imo.


1. Ships destroyed isn't an ISK sink. It's a faucet. It removes minerals from the game, sure, but the isk you spent on the ship goes off to another player, and you get given insurance money from nowhere for it. ISK sinks pull ISK out of circulation entirely.

2. I don't know about you, but I tend to run with only +3s out in 0.0. They don't cost much to replace. You'd stop people with slave sets and things from jumping, sure, but not anyone else. I do it a fair amount, though I'll admit my clones are only 7mil a pop at the moment.

3. It's your perception that's the problem, not the game mechanic. If my clones only cost as much as a rifter, I'd be exploding all over the show.

4. See above. Clone costs and ship costs are not and should not be tied together.

5. I see people do it fairly frequently, I've done it myself a lot too. It happens already, why make it easier?

6. Fair point, but if it takes you an hour of ratting to make enough to buy an 8 mil clone, something is wrong.

7. It's your call, the pricetag or your SP. Big smile
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-05-10 22:47:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Drake Draconis
It takes very little time for me to make 30mil ISK.

WTF is your problem again OP?

EDIT: and no dont ask me how...because if you have to ask..then you have literally no business being here asking for such stupid requests. Your likely going to get laughed out on your ass.

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Corian Teranos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-11 02:55:56 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Seriously, why are high grade clones so damn expensive? Yeah I get the isk sink bit, but the 30mill it costs me on my clone is 30mill I would probably use to buy implants that would get destroyed anyway.

Also what it does is prevent me from being able to move around in the galaxy without paying 30mill or 60 if I want to get back. And that is if the clone your podding is without implants. Also I tend to avoid going on frigate type gangs since getting podded is so much more likely.
tbh just slice the prices to 1/10

you could argue that if I have this much sp I should be able to afford a 30mill clone. Well I tend to enjoy pvp and not hoard isk so no I'm not that rich. Yeah, I can afford it, but its just plain annoying and its just another incentive for me not to go out and die and just sit in station and spin my ship, the game has way to many of these.



.... you easily make 30 mil + in a good l4 run i dont really see how clones are that expensive.
Mushroom Dealer
Mushroom Cult
#30 - 2012-05-11 06:33:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mushroom Dealer
Its not about making the 30-40mill, its about I want to use those 30-40 mill on player produced items such as ships and better mods
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#31 - 2012-05-11 08:00:56 UTC
Corian Teranos wrote:
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Seriously, why are high grade clones so damn expensive? Yeah I get the isk sink bit, but the 30mill it costs me on my clone is 30mill I would probably use to buy implants that would get destroyed anyway.

Also what it does is prevent me from being able to move around in the galaxy without paying 30mill or 60 if I want to get back. And that is if the clone your podding is without implants. Also I tend to avoid going on frigate type gangs since getting podded is so much more likely.
tbh just slice the prices to 1/10

you could argue that if I have this much sp I should be able to afford a 30mill clone. Well I tend to enjoy pvp and not hoard isk so no I'm not that rich. Yeah, I can afford it, but its just plain annoying and its just another incentive for me not to go out and die and just sit in station and spin my ship, the game has way to many of these.



.... you easily make 30 mil + in a good l4 run i dont really see how clones are that expensive.


And when you go to 0.0 home defense battles many times, and you lost your pod 10 times within 3 days, i think you should be crying like a little girl because of the very expensive clones.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#32 - 2012-05-11 21:25:28 UTC
The easiest way to avoid this is, once you are certain your ship is gone, choose an escape location. Once your ship is destroyed, warp to that location as quickly as possible before your capsule (and yourself) is horribly murdered.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Mushroom Dealer
Mushroom Cult
#33 - 2012-05-12 00:21:19 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
The easiest way to avoid this is, once you are certain your ship is gone, choose an escape location. Once your ship is destroyed, warp to that location as quickly as possible before your capsule (and yourself) is horribly murdered.



NO ****!? WoW I really??? congratulations, you just won a wooden horse on the racetrack \o7

also you'll have to tell me who your dealer is for interdiction nullified pods, I'd gladly pay 30mill for one of those.
Tyshalle Fallen
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#34 - 2012-05-12 08:05:51 UTC
It is impressive the number of retards on here....

But if it is worth anything mushroom I am behind you...

To those saying that destroying ships is not an isk sink then you clearly never heard of mod drop rate... or understand the fact that insurance does not pay for 100% of the ship aaaaand you still have to pay to get the insurance...
Bluddwolf
Heimatar Military Industries
#35 - 2012-05-13 03:15:53 UTC
I keep different clones for different purposes. Example:

Training Clone: +5 Implants for all stats (never leaves space dock)

EVE Online Fan ... Looking for "End Game" since 2006 ... Happily, I still havn't found it
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-05-14 13:02:29 UTC
Supported, clone cost is too high. I like to fly frigs, a clone should not cost more than the ship.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-05-15 01:29:54 UTC
The last thing we need is fewer ISK sinks. Also, get podded less.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-18 14:03:21 UTC
Mushroom Dealer wrote:
Can anyone give me another viable reason as to why these prices need to be this high?


EVE is a harsh game

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Sheynan
Lighting the blight
#39 - 2012-05-18 18:28:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheynan
It's called consequence...


Why didn't you stop training at some point if you knew you would fly small stuff all the time, for example at a 5mil clone price ?

You can easily do smallscale pvp with that amount of skillpoints.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#40 - 2012-05-20 21:19:47 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Supported, clone cost is too high. I like to fly frigs, a clone should not cost more than the ship.


It's true
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