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Fix the TiDi please
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Mathias Hex
#21 - 2012-05-12 22:26:20 UTC
Had 10% TiDi in estene and another nearby system, if you look straight into a warp tunnel on 10% it really fucks with you.

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#22 - 2012-05-12 22:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Information Agent
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gorenaire wrote:
Shpenat wrote:


There is nothing CCP can do about this situation right now. There is no code to allow node loading on the fly. To move the systems to different nodes they would have to take down the entire cluster. That is not an option.



Well if TiDi is supposed to solve lag problem in a system due to lots of people in it and it creates tons of lag in a dozen others systems, what kind of solution is that ?

It solves crashing and stuff like that. You like being unable to load grid?


Didn't used to get blackscreens from jumping in Empire when there was big battles going on in Low and Null so whats your point? Since Gorenaire was in Empire at the time and well away from the fight.
Iture
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#23 - 2012-05-12 22:31:38 UTC
Information Agent wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Gorenaire wrote:
Shpenat wrote:


There is nothing CCP can do about this situation right now. There is no code to allow node loading on the fly. To move the systems to different nodes they would have to take down the entire cluster. That is not an option.



Well if TiDi is supposed to solve lag problem in a system due to lots of people in it and it creates tons of lag in a dozen others systems, what kind of solution is that ?

It solves crashing and stuff like that. You like being unable to load grid?


Didn't used to get blackscreens from jumping in Empire when there was big battles going on in Low and Null so whats your point? Since Gorenaire was in Empire at the time and well away from the fight.



Except when 0.0 fleet fights took down the whole cluster due to someone on command channel saying " we should 'jump' to this system. " and half the fleet jumps and the rest has to jump into the system as fast as possible.

Yes, that, never took the cluster down, ever.
Information Agent
Apparently Miners
#24 - 2012-05-12 22:40:06 UTC
Iture wrote:



Except when 0.0 fleet fights took down the whole cluster due to someone on command channel saying " we should 'jump' to this system. " and half the fleet jumps and the rest has to jump into the system as fast as possible.

Yes, that, never took the cluster down, ever.


Yeah, that happened a few times. Wasn't that common though and it was a cluster shutdown then restart, its a 'hiccup' that was quickly corrected when it happened. TiDi does what its supposed to do very well, granted, but why on earth does it have to affect people that are in no way shape or form connected or even close to the trigger?

I just don't see why the various blobs can roam as they do to the detriment of players yet to involve themselves in that part of the game. It might even put them off trying.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#25 - 2012-05-12 23:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
It's a bit weird 0.0 systems share nodes with empire systems. Wouldn't it make more sense to have 0.0 systems share only nodes with themselves? Because whenever one hits TiDi, the chance of other well-populated empire systems to be effected seem smaller to me, and vice versa causing more TiDi. Except perhaps some big null HQ systems, but CCP knows which ones those are.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-05-12 23:31:52 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
It's a bit weird 0.0 systems share nodes with empire systems. Wouldn't it make more sense to have 0.0 systems share only nodes with themselves? Because whenever one hits TiDi, the chance of other well-populated empire systems to be effected seem smaller to me, and vice versa causing more TiDi. Except perhaps some big null HQ systems, but CCP knows which ones those are.


you're assuming the fight took place in nullsec - it didn't.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Dysphonia Fera
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-05-12 23:44:02 UTC
~controlling your game~
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-05-12 23:50:35 UTC
it was selfish of us to disrupt his gameplay, his immersion in warping between gates, with our 1000 man battle

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
No More Heroes
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#29 - 2012-05-12 23:53:22 UTC
Gorenaire wrote:
was travelling from Caldari space through Gallente and TiDi just makes the game absolutely unplayable , its takes 5 minutes to jump from 1 system to another

TiDi @ 10 for at least a dozen system i went through, it takes ages to move anywhere

To fix battle lag in 0.0, people nowhere near those systems have to lag to hell as well ?? thats the point of this solution ?


Tell -A- to get out of lowsec and come to Deklein.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#30 - 2012-05-12 23:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gorenaire wrote:
Well if TiDi is supposed to solve lag problem in a system due to lots of people in it and it creates tons of lag in a dozen others systems, what kind of solution is that ?
A good one since it lets you travel through those systems rather than show you nothing and/or just dump you to the login screen.

Information Agent wrote:
TiDi does what its supposed to do very well, granted, but why on earth does it have to affect people that are in no way shape or form connected or even close to the trigger?
Because that's how the systems are distributed over the cluster.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-05-13 00:05:21 UTC
Gorenaire wrote:
was travelling from Caldari space through Gallente and TiDi just makes the game absolutely unplayable , its takes 5 minutes to jump from 1 system to another

TiDi @ 10 for at least a dozen system i went through, it takes ages to move anywhere

To fix battle lag in 0.0, people nowhere near those systems have to lag to hell as well ?? thats the point of this solution ?

Information Agent wrote:
Didn't used to get blackscreens from jumping in Empire when there was big battles going on in Low and Null so whats your point? Since Gorenaire was in Empire at the time and well away from the fight.

If you two had paid any attention to the technical details behind how the EVE cluster works, then you would know exactly why this happened.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Zleon Leigh
#32 - 2012-05-13 00:44:09 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Gorenaire wrote:
was travelling from Caldari space through Gallente and TiDi just makes the game absolutely unplayable , its takes 5 minutes to jump from 1 system to another

TiDi @ 10 for at least a dozen system i went through, it takes ages to move anywhere

To fix battle lag in 0.0, people nowhere near those systems have to lag to hell as well ?? thats the point of this solution ?

Information Agent wrote:
Didn't used to get blackscreens from jumping in Empire when there was big battles going on in Low and Null so whats your point? Since Gorenaire was in Empire at the time and well away from the fight.

If you two had paid any attention to the technical details behind how the EVE cluster works, then you would know exactly why this happened.


If CCP has thought about the natural evolution of the game in the beginning the implementation wouldn't have been so bashed together that it wouldn't take 50 man-year to fix it.

Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital. CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day

PvP's latest  incentive program ** Unified Inventory **  'Cause you gotta kill something after trying to use it
TWHC Assistant
#33 - 2012-05-13 00:45:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
A good one since it lets you travel through those systems rather than show you nothing and/or just dump you to the login screen.

TiDi is a good system for creating an artificial fine-grained lag and to delay the moment of death for a node, but it does not reduce lag nor does it avoid bad node planning. It only indicates, visualises and manages lag. It even can lure you into thinking that it could be used to reduce lag, which it cannot do and makes it more dangerous than helpful.

It then seems dumb to me not to anticipate spikes in systems where there is already a regular flow of players going through and while one cannot use jump drives in high-sec. These systems are bound to become bottlenecks. TiDi does not change this it seems. So what good is it?

If it could indeed, and as some Goons have put it, slow down miners in remote systems and for the sake of keeping travel routes alive then it could actually be of help.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#34 - 2012-05-13 00:45:41 UTC
Yeah yeah ... all this TiDi stuff.

More importantly, how'd the battle turn out?

Nothing clever at this time.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-05-13 00:57:25 UTC
Zleon Leigh wrote:
If CCP has thought about the natural evolution of the game in the beginning the implementation wouldn't have been so bashed together that it wouldn't take 50 man-year to fix it.

It's very easy to say this now, 10 years later, with 10 years of development on both the hardware and software side (both OS-wise and development-wise). But since they weren't omnipotent gods back then, this is what we're left with, so deal with it.

TWHC Assistant wrote:
Tippia wrote:
A good one since it lets you travel through those systems rather than show you nothing and/or just dump you to the login screen.

TiDi is a good system for creating an artificial fine-grained lag and to delay the moment of death for a node, but it does not reduce lag nor does it avoid bad node planning. It only indicates, visualises and manages lag. It even can lure you into thinking that it could be used to reduce lag, which it cannot do and makes it more dangerous than helpful.

It has absolutely nothing to do with creating "fine-grained lag", the purpose of TiDi is graceful degradation. Pre-tidi, nodes did not degrade gracefully at all, now they do. Pre-tidi, you wouldn't even have been able to travel through those systems at the speed you are able to now. What you're looking at is a dramatic improvement, and the fact people are whining means they have absolutely no idea how bad it was before.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2012-05-13 01:06:55 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
TiDi is a good system for creating an artificial fine-grained lag
No. It does not create lag. It create graceful degradation of node performance in high-lag situation by altering the speed of the local world simulation to reduce the number of server calls to manageable levels.

Quote:
it does not reduce lag nor does it avoid bad node planning.
You can only have “node planning” if you know what the nodes will be used for. In a dynamic environment, that's pretty much impossible, so “avoiding” it is just as impossible as planning it is to begin with.

Quote:
It then seems dumb to me not to anticipate spikes in systems where there is already a regular flow of players going through and while one cannot use jump drives in high-sec. These systems are bound to become bottlenecks. TiDi does not change this it seems. So what good is it?
It's not meant to solve it — it's not a “dynamic node rebuilder”. Again: it provides graceful degradation in laggy conditions and keeps the node from just not responding and leaving people with black screens — that's what it's good for.
Kriegman
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-05-13 01:21:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kriegman
Guys why argue with highsec pubbies that think a fleet of 50 is a blob. They will not understand the dynamics of 1000+ men fleet fighting and maneuvering. Here is what happened; -A-, Solar, and friends got dumpsterted by OTEC for looking at the tech moons. The Mittani sends his regards, deals with it.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-05-13 01:30:08 UTC
Dumpstered is one way of phrasing it. Teabagged is another.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
TWHC Assistant
#39 - 2012-05-13 01:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: TWHC Assistant
Lord Zim wrote:
It has absolutely nothing to do with creating "fine-grained lag", the purpose of TiDi is graceful degradation.

That is exactly what an artificial fine-grained lag does. It spreads out the actual lag and thereby as you say gracefully degrades it. It does however not eliminate it and too many players will still be able to bring the system to a halt. It is not a real improvement but merely an early warning system. If TiDi gets interpreted wrong and players do not avoid it but keep running into systems with TiDi then it will bring the system to a halt.

Tippia wrote:
No. It does not create lag. It create graceful degradation of node performance in high-lag situation by altering the speed of the local world simulation to reduce the number of server calls to manageable levels.

Yes, it does exactly that. I slows your client down. It creates an artificial fine-grained lag on the client side to reduce the load on the node. You percieve it as a slow down of the world simulation but really is your client having an artificial lag.

Tippia wrote:
You can only have “node planning” if you know what the nodes will be used for. In a dynamic environment, that's pretty much impossible, so “avoiding” it is just as impossible as planning it is to begin with.

Sure, but these systems are known travel systems. Check their daily jump rates or ask the suicide gankers there as these are mostly 0.5-systems. They can tell you how much static traffic runs through there.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#40 - 2012-05-13 04:25:30 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
That is exactly what an artificial fine-grained lag does.
No, Whitehound. It does not “create artifical lag” (fine-grained or otherwise). It ensures that the lag that already exists doesn't make server calls get lost in the processing queue by slowing down how quickly they can enter that queue.

Quote:
It is not a real improvement but merely an early warning system.
No, it's an actual improvement, and not a warning system. It ensures that high lag doesn't immediately cause people to get lost in the server processing.

Quote:
Yes, it does exactly that. I slows your client down.
…which isn't the same thing as lag. Quite the opposite. Lag means it takes longer for things to repond, or maybe they don't respond at all because they time out. TiDi makes it so that things respond far more quickly and more reliably by ensuring that the server doesn't get spammed. It also doesn't “slow the client down” — it slows the world down at a local level (where “local” doesn't have any pre-defined geographic area or spread unless we're talking about Jita).

Quote:
Sure, but these systems are known travel systems.
They are also dynamic because there is no way to plan how the players choose to inhabit the galaxy. There's also no way to tell if one supposedly low-load system will suddenly go into high-gear because someone chooses to do something particularly spectacular there.