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Logistics ships & rebalancing EVE one ship at a time
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Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#61 - 2012-05-12 22:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.


Jams last 20 seconds.

Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"?

I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time.

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WolfeReign
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-05-12 23:09:18 UTC
so you want to nerf something that allows smaller fleets take on fleets that are bigger then them......
Zoidberg Gahiji
Doomheim
#63 - 2012-05-12 23:09:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
"1400mm Howitzer Artillery II"


I am inclined to say that this is actually an argument in favor of the OP.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-05-12 23:16:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
De Douche wrote:
1/10 troll

OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot Shocked

And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p



Not empty quoting Big smile


Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-05-12 23:19:11 UTC
WolfeReign wrote:
so you want to nerf something that allows smaller fleets take on fleets that are bigger then them......


Except, the larger fleet has more of them so the effect that you are suggestion won't actually happen now will it?

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Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#66 - 2012-05-12 23:21:16 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
De Douche wrote:
1/10 troll

OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot Shocked

And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p



Not empty quoting Big smile


Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game.


Neut rr is a different matter entirely.

You're talking about simple logis here.

You're raving about something that would change the gameplay of people in null sec or wormholes too (you know, the real pvp...)

There are 2 possibilities: you're a troll or you're just mad you werent able to kill someone.

(also is funny you talk about "risk aversion" while going around with neut logiS, why dont you go around solo champ?)
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-05-12 23:24:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Just Alter wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
De Douche wrote:
1/10 troll

OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot Shocked

And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p



Not empty quoting Big smile


Yes, I can neut RR with the best of them. It doesn't mean that I like it, it is just the state of the game.


Neut rr is a different matter entirely.

You're talking about simple logis here.

You're raving about something that would change the gameplay of people in null sec or wormholes too (you know, the real pvp...)

There are 2 possibilities: you're a troll or you're just mad you werent able to kill someone.

(also is funny you talk about "risk aversion" while going around with neut logiS, why dont you go around solo champ?)




It's all the same because... drum roll.... "Neutral logistics are so easy to counter"
Or do you only say that when it's suits your needs?



& yes I am talking about all logi's everywhere, neutral or otherwise.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#68 - 2012-05-12 23:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Greygal wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.


Jams last 20 seconds.

Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"?

I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time.


Aren't you agony guys supposed to be like... really smart?




A guardian with base skills is referring to it's base sensor strength plus 1 ECCM... obviously. And unless you plan on disputing EFT's math regarding ECM, I don't think you and I have much else to discuss. 65% jams with one racial jammer? You're totally on crack dude.

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Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#69 - 2012-05-12 23:27:46 UTC
Welp, i'm out.

Have fun whining i guess.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#70 - 2012-05-12 23:28:38 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Welp, i'm out.

Have fun whining i guess.



But your in TEST?
Isn't that against alliance policy or something?

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Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#71 - 2012-05-12 23:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Greygal
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Greygal wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Once ECM jammer with perfect skills on a guardian with base skills will only score a jam 36% of the time for 15 seconds.


Jams last 20 seconds.

Why would someone fly a Guardian with only "base skills"?

I believe your 36% chance-to-jam is too low, especially if you are assuming "perfect skills." What ship is the ECM jammer flying? What type of jammer is it using (racial? multispec? t2?) Is the jamming ship fit with rigs? Is the pilot overheating his jammers? Are there fleet boosters available? Many things can affect the chance to jam. Too lazy to do the math myself right now, but some simple and quick math off the top of my head, flying a reasonably well fit ecm-bonused ship, I'm thinking I'm going to successfully jam a Guardian closer to 65% of the time.


Aren't you agony guys supposed to be like... really smart?

A guardian with base skills is referring to it's base sensor strength plus 1 ECCM... obviously. And unless you plan on disputing EFT's math regarding ECM, I don't think you and I have much else to discuss. 65% jams with one racial jammer? You're totally on crack dude.


Then I missunderstood what you meant by "base skills". I also didn't take into accounting the fitting of an ECCM. I also stated that I was too lazy to do the math myself right now :)

Edit: Did the math.

Falcon, with one T2 jammer, (all level 5 skills), has a jam strength of 11.25 plus one Guardian, fit with a T2 ECCM (all level 5 skills), has sensor strength of 37.2 = chance to jam 30.24%

Falcon, with one T2 jammer, (all level 5 skills), has a jam strength of 11.25 plus one Guardian NOT fit with ECCM, has sensor strength of 19 = chance to jam 59.21%

It's not that my top-of-my-head-math was far off. It was the assumption about whether or not ECCM was fit that was wrong. After all, nowhere in your original post did you mention ECCM.

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Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#72 - 2012-05-12 23:40:52 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
Welp, i'm out.

Have fun whining i guess.



But your in TEST?
Isn't that against alliance policy or something?


You're right:

Welp i'm out.

You're a **** **** eating ******.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-05-12 23:41:29 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
Welp, i'm out.

Have fun whining i guess.



But your in TEST?
Isn't that against alliance policy or something?


You're right:

Welp i'm out.

You're a **** **** eating ******.



That's better.

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Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-05-12 23:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Barbara Nichole
by all means.. lets make all fights insta-ganks. we should be able to push a button and everyone pvp should die at once and quickly.. (sic)

my hulk has the mining power of 24 mining frigates.. needs a nerf right?

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-05-12 23:57:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Barbara Nichole wrote:
by all means.. lets make all fights insta-ganks. we should be able to push a button and everyone pvp should die at once and quickly.. (sic)


We are in agreement, I too think Alpha fleets are far to prevalent.

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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-05-13 00:02:30 UTC
IMO this is all just a bad idea. For one, the idea of trying to balance just one ship, like logi is just prone to failure. There are tons of different ships with different abilities in EVE. It is what makes it so great. Yes Logi is a major force multiplier in a fleet. But there are also plenty of counters to logistics.

With the wide array of possible fleet compositions it is hard to just take one ship in isolation and try to "balance" it. All you will get is a different fleet composition down the line with it's own issues.
nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-05-13 01:47:18 UTC
first off logi's have many weak spot like it was said before shot them and if the 2nd logi dont start rr that one it dead and in most cases it will die no matter what or warp off.

Get a rook out there and jam the logi.

there are countless counter to logi's but in the end if a numbers game get more FRIENDS!!

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#78 - 2012-05-13 01:51:58 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
This thread makes total Sense!!

I remember a year ago before i de-activated my account..
We were war decked by a corp of say 6 players, we had them out numbered the gates camped etc! We were shocked that they undocked, so we started shooting..

THEN BOOM! out of no where!!

4 neutral logistic alts appeared from no where!! and started repping them.
So this is how it goes in empire atm.

Greifer corps have neutral logistic alts so they can move them around freely and put them into place freely before repping [
THIS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED!

I suggest CCP make it so Logistic ships cannot repair neutrals!!
Its EXPLOITING!!

Yes i'm mad!

..
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#79 - 2012-05-13 02:31:36 UTC
Dear OP:

Please see this list of counters to LOGI's:

More logis on your side.
Neut Drones (sucks to be a scimmy)
Curses / Pilgrims (Sucks to be any logistics)
Remote Sensor Dampeners (Sucks to change targets, or they become out of lock range)
Heavy Neuts on your battleships (No cap no rep... kill that chain)
High Alpha





CCP: Fix the neut rep.. ohh wait, there it is in the upcoming patch notes.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#80 - 2012-05-13 03:36:44 UTC
nat longshot wrote:
first off logi's have many weak spot like it was said before shot them and if the 2nd logi dont start rr that one it dead and in most cases it will die no matter what or warp off.

Get a rook out there and jam the logi.

there are countless counter to logi's but in the end if a numbers game get more FRIENDS!!

Blobber <3

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?