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New frigate stats on SiSi listed here. Tiercide is upon us, discuss!

Author
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2012-05-11 21:44:50 UTC
Jiji Hamin wrote:
[quote=Copine Callmeknau]right and we all know how the nyx, moros, thanny and erebus are terrible pvp caps or how the lachesis and arazu are never necessary for anything, etc.


Riiiight, let's drag a mothership, a dreadnaught and a carrier into a discussion about frigates, battlecruisers and battleships.

And while yes, Lachesis and Arazu are quite nice, they're not the kind of ships that make it to top 20 most used. Which means what, exactly? That's the game is well balanced?

Seriously guys, you can dance around the issue all you like. Simple fact (supported by data) is that if all 4 races were balanced, then the distribution of the ships in top 20 would be roughly the same. I'm talking +/-10-15% difference. Instead, we are seeing a hugely skewed list, with literally zero Gallente ships on it. This has got to mean something.

Heck, don't believe me? Go look at CCP slide from FanFest that clearly says Gallente ships are the worst out of all 4 races when it comes to subcaps. This isn't me talking, this is CCP itself.
Callic Veratar
#42 - 2012-05-11 21:49:42 UTC
Mariner6 wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?



The Navitas is supposed to become a full drone frigate (guessing a wing of 5 with no guns).


Where did you see this about the Navitas? Its not on Sisi.

1) I can't believe the Rifter got faster and better, already hands down the best T1 frig.
2) I can't believe the incurses got slower despite all the issues with blaster's short range and time to get there.
3) I can't believe that the scan resolution of the Incurses got lowered. I mean, if Gallente are supposed to be the scan resolution race/dampeners then shouldn't they have the highest scan res of any race? Kind of like Caldari seem to have the highest sensor strength? They just made this a much less valuable tackle ship.
4) Why does the Atron even mention mining in the description, always wondered that?
5) Hate the armor repair bonus. I mean really? Isn't it fail enough on the Myrm and Hyperion. Lets see, a close in tackler that must come into neut range to do its job, and lets active rep it. Great. So much for tackling anything other than frigs and maybe some cruisers. Oh i know I'll put a cap booster on it, then I lose web and once I'm scrammed I lose all speed. Lets nerf the speed some more too. Oh and hybrids still need cap to shoot, so now the drones pwn me. Very frustrated with all this. What's the vision here CCP?



The discussion's been happening for several weeks. The current state is after a rebalance of the original balance and will likely have another one (or two) after that. All ships are listed, follow Ytterbium's updates for the condensed info.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1182520#post1182520
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-05-12 03:31:28 UTC
wow i still find it funny people are raging about this already...

There redoing ALL THE FRIGS...

Yes each race has 2 that didn't totally suck, the point is after this is done the races are supposed to have ALL OF THERE FRIGATES as useable options that dont suck...

Note i didnt say completely balanced RIFTER <> PUNISHER and shouldn't theres differences and there needs to be 1 ship should be better at some things than its counterpart and vise versa.
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-05-12 04:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Jiji Hamin wrote:
[quote=Copine Callmeknau]right and we all know how the nyx, moros, thanny and erebus are terrible pvp caps or how the lachesis and arazu are never necessary for anything, etc.


Riiiight, let's drag a mothership, a dreadnaught and a carrier into a discussion about frigates, battlecruisers and battleships.

And while yes, Lachesis and Arazu are quite nice, they're not the kind of ships that make it to top 20 most used. Which means what, exactly? That's the game is well balanced?

Seriously guys, you can dance around the issue all you like. Simple fact (supported by data) is that if all 4 races were balanced, then the distribution of the ships in top 20 would be roughly the same. I'm talking +/-10-15% difference. Instead, we are seeing a hugely skewed list, with literally zero Gallente ships on it. This has got to mean something.

Heck, don't believe me? Go look at CCP slide from FanFest that clearly says Gallente ships are the worst out of all 4 races when it comes to subcaps. This isn't me talking, this is CCP itself.


gallente just need one or two ships that are minmaxed well for providing dps in large fleets fights. that's not the same thing as saying that gallente ships are bad. it means that they are bad at having an ideal rank-and-file blob ship among their number. being on the "most used" list means having a ship that is a vanilla damage dealing ship for group pvp. the gallente lack that. outside of that one (imporant) category, the gallente are an extremely diverse, interesting and even strong race. make the hyperion or the brutix or something more efficient for just showing up and shooting primary and fitting a buffer.

we don't need to redo the entire line, we just need to focus on getting the gallente a big, reasonably priced ship with guns that is ideal for showing up to armor fleets or shield fleets fitted with guns and shooting ****. that ~lack~ doesn't make all gallente ships bad nor does it damn all gallentean ships built by the ship design principles that fail to be effective in big fights.

bringing this back to point: all of this about "gallente are not on top used ships" is irrelevant to frigate balance seeing as the gallente T2 frigates have always been awsome and these days the faction friggies from gallente are as well. moreover, none of these ships you are talking about (hurricane, drake, etc) are even remotely comparable to the frigate balance issue at hand, so don't say that i took this discussion elsewhere by bringing up caps and supers. gallente can be extremely strong as frigates without redesigning their core concepts, bonuses, etc. we have seen that with T2. the problem with gallente T1 is that the high-tier tristan has split weapons and ultimatley boring base stats and the promising incursus is tier 2 and has minimal slots/fittings/hp. despite these limitations we have seen, over the years, decent results from pioneering incursus pilots. I have no doubt that with a little bit of love the T1 gallente frigates will be just as mighty as the T2 (ares, enyo, ishkur and taranis are all very strong albeit in different ways) in comparison.

gallente had ve many points in eve's history where they were considered extremely powerful. right now they are ont he verge of being fuckin awesome. love for their T1 frigates, and maybe some minor changes to a T1 BC or BS (like removing the brutix or hyperion active armor bonuses in favor of falloff bonuses and then buffing their shield and amor base HP or resists) and a revamp of info warfare links (okay and maybe a little love for active armor like making them cycle at the beginning) and we could see a shipline that is extremely powerful. gallente ships are often just vexed by all these little hindrances everywhere you turn that if they were systematically dealt with we would have awesome ships without having to revamp the shipline entirely.
Stealthshot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-05-12 05:14:27 UTC
The new Tormentor is nice a good balance of strong cap, utility high, drones and enough lows for a decent active tank. Not much dps and its easy to kite but i can live with that. With in scram range it can tank another t1 frig for long enough for the drones to weaken them to the point that a quick burst of OH conflag can break anything the nuet cant shut down.
Zita Devon
Z.Devon Trade Industry.
#46 - 2012-05-12 21:17:22 UTC
the only this i see is that Amarr no longer will have an mining Frigat.... Great job CCP.

im glad im not a new player to eve... with nothing to start out in.
Autonomous Monster
Paradox Interstellar
#47 - 2012-05-12 21:59:11 UTC
Zita Devon wrote:
the only this i see is that Amarr no longer will have an mining Frigat.... Great job CCP.

im glad im not a new player to eve... with nothing to start out in.


All the mining frigs are getting retrofitted for combat. They're planning to replace them with an entry-level ORE boat.

Though really it should be in place before they start getting rid of the others but eh, whatever. Cross training for the Navitas et al would take all of an hour.
Drew Solaert
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2012-05-13 12:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Drew Solaert
One thing to note about the Punisher, while it got the 10% cap thingy removed from the bonuses, with the new recharge rate it actually balances out pretty much the same, not so great active fit, but if your buffer and with lasers, no change really. What I *really* believe is the best bit for the Punisher is that speed change, 287m/s up to 330m/s That thing is pretty damn fast.

*edit* Oh hell lets make it a slightly longer post

Been flying the Incursus, and well I'm in love with it assuming you have Gallente Frig 5 a single small armour rep II nets you 120hp per cycle. Pretty substainal bit of HP on a frig, certainly opens it up to some different engagements.

I lied :o

Turelus
Utassi Security
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#49 - 2012-05-13 15:39:33 UTC
So with the removal of the Amarr mining frigate how does that change the Tutorial Missions for Industry?
New players will be given a ship in that mission now to go and mine in and it will have combat bonuses instead.

I like the idea of CCP removing the teir system but it really seems like these frigates are a rush to get something out instead of sitting and thinking about all the problems before hand.
I'd rather wait until winter and have all the frigates changes sent out at once so we have some context on what these ships are meant to be doing in their class.

Turelus CEO Utassi Security

ACE81
Sacred Sacrifice
#50 - 2012-05-14 03:41:48 UTC
Hmm I like the Idea of 3 turrets on the Merlin but then it should be able to fit 2-3 unbonused rocket launchers as well.

I too would rather have 4th hi slot and 2 lows instead of 3 Hi's and 3 lows (sounds too much like a rifter).
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-05-14 09:40:30 UTC
I completly understand the change on the Merlin, (I liked the fact that it's onle of the only ships that used both Caldari Primary weapon systems though) but it was tough cooky to fly as a starting pilot and do damage, and hybrid pilots lacked a primary t1 frigate platform.


I hope that in line with the removal of the tiers they will look at the Kestrel next.

And see it there is a spot for a dual hybrid/Missile Caldari ship somewhere down the pipe line.
ACE81
Sacred Sacrifice
#52 - 2012-05-14 10:03:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ACE81
To elaborate further on the Merlin I feel the rockets help the turrets in filling in for their short comings, examples would be like on a blaster fit enemy fly's out of range well the rockets will still make hits till you can get back in range or you can switch to longer range ammo.
Kiev Duran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-05-15 22:09:56 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Seriously guys, you can dance around the issue all you like. Simple fact (supported by data) is that if all 4 races were balanced, then the distribution of the ships in top 20 would be roughly the same. I'm talking +/-10-15% difference. Instead, we are seeing a hugely skewed list, with literally zero Gallente ships on it. This has got to mean something.


I agree with the point that you're trying to get across, that there should be more racial variation between the ships if everything was in perfect balance, but you forget that the different races make up unequal percentages of the playerbase. There are more Caldari pilots than there are Gallente pilots, and as such Caldari should always make up a larger percentage than Gallente on ranked lists because of sheer numbers.

That said, the fact that there are no Gallente ships in the top 20 is distressing.

Jame Jarl Retief wrote:

Heck, don't believe me? Go look at CCP slide from FanFest that clearly says Gallente ships are the worst out of all 4 races when it comes to subcaps. This isn't me talking, this is CCP itself.


I can agree to some extent with this: I don't feel like Caldari have it any better than Gallente do, but both races need some serious love. It's about time CCP realized there are more than 2 races when it comes to PvP.

On a completely unrelated note, I hope CCP will reconsider removing the optimal range bonus on the Merlin, frig sniping was pretty fun, and a good bit more effective than most people might assume, since as a Caldari solo PvPer you'll be taking a second person to web and scram anyway. I feel that the kestrel would make a much better close range "take it and dish it" ship (which is what I see the Combat role as) since long-range missiles are more broken than rockets.
Perihelion Olenard
#54 - 2012-05-16 11:23:27 UTC
This is all they could do since the dev blog?
Danfen Fenix
#55 - 2012-05-16 17:01:38 UTC
Turelus wrote:
So with the removal of the Amarr mining frigate how does that change the Tutorial Missions for Industry?
New players will be given a ship in that mission now to go and mine in and it will have combat bonuses instead.

I like the idea of CCP removing the teir system but it really seems like these frigates are a rush to get something out instead of sitting and thinking about all the problems before hand.
I'd rather wait until winter and have all the frigates changes sent out at once so we have some context on what these ships are meant to be doing in their class.


Shouldn't change the missions one bit atm. You really think a new, 1 hour old player will care about 'ship bonuses' ? Lol If it can fit mining lasers, then it can mine. If it can mine, it can do those missions.
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation
#56 - 2012-05-19 23:28:49 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious


Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?


http://caldari.eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=1295&view=ships_weapons&m=05&y=2012

and

http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=alliance_detail&all_id=1330&view=ships_weapons&m=05&y=2012

Show a very different story to the Global Killboards
Notice how BOTH Caldari and Gallente have the Myrmidon in their Top 10

These actually go as far as to show that our ship usage on a regular basis in low-sec (Caldari-Gallente FW) is far more diverse. I guarentee if you expand that out to all of Low-Sec, that we might see more T3 and Tier 3 creeping in to those lists; simply because they are flavours of the month.

Still these in my opinion show a much better indication of the ships that are actively used on a monthly basis by players who are consistantly fighting in both Small and Large engagements.

Changes that will go live with Inferno, honestly have not been well thought through and lack luster as they are taking baby steps with them; which is going to be very very bad for the game not just PvP wise where it will have the opposite effect that what they are hoping it will have but actually the markets as well will suffer.
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#57 - 2012-05-20 09:17:54 UTC
Moonaura wrote:
But the Rokh doesn't need a damage bonus. If there is one ship I hope CCP leave alone, its the Rokh.


I wouldnt mind if they just added a bit of drone bay to it, so it matches other battleships Lol
Rrama Ratamnim
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-05-20 11:24:28 UTC
like the new ships, but honestly i hope there also redoing the minerals to build them as son previously useless ships that were insanely cheap to build are now good ships still ridiculously cheap to build
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