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Logistics ships & rebalancing EVE one ship at a time
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Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#41 - 2012-05-12 03:39:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cartheron Crust
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Cartheron Crust wrote:
Ah yes use one of the worst ships for an RR BS as an example to why Logistics ships need to be nerfed.

Armageddon has one spare high slot for a remote rep mod. Bad.
It only has three midslots. Bad.
It uses its cap for guns. Bad.

This is not a good ship to base your argument on.

[EDIT] - As it seems your main gripe is not being able to kill things before they can deagress and dock perhaps try fighting somewhere they cannot use that dock button.



A lot of people here exhibit gross reading comprehension difficulties. I advise you to go back and read it again, and while you're at it, please tell me how other racial ships are superior to geddons when guardians are involved giving reps at 60km. I would love to hear your sparkling insights.


Because you should base your argument on a ship that is actually suited to the role you are trying to mimic? Rather than one of the worst ships for the intended role? Now over the Armageddon; the Tempest has an extra utility high and two extra mids; the Typhoon has two extra utility highs and an extra mid and the Dominix has five extra utility highs and two extra mids. None of them use cap for their DPS. Perhaps use these to base an argument on.

Now onto your "problem" of being able rep at 60km. The RR BS does Remote Rep, Tackle and DPS. The Logistics ship does Remote Rep (two of the four can also generate cap). In your own example scenario the Logistics ship flyer is giving up the potential to do DPS and tackle to be more efficient at repping. This is what specialist ships do. This isn't even a problem. Your problem seems to be people using some preparation and organisation and you don't want to put in some effort to counter it.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-05-12 04:42:45 UTC
You used two whole posts to essentially say "I don't have enough friends"

Good job
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#43 - 2012-05-12 05:47:36 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
More death is better for the game.

Tracking titans need a buff.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#44 - 2012-05-12 06:07:02 UTC
FluffyDice wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
More death is better for the game.

Tracking titans need a buff.

Titan swarm agrees.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-05-12 12:41:36 UTC
No, really. Shoot it. I'm sorry, but, frankly, it's the obvious counter. Primary it and the alpha damage will exceed the other logis in the fleet's locktime.

Dodixie > Hek
Garnoo
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2012-05-12 13:09:03 UTC
i think Eternum Praetorian is just dumb...
"Observe the logistic ship, a vessel that has no stacking penalty to it’s LARGE RR mods" wft? what stacking penalty he wants??? mayby he still thinks guns have stacking penalty or something...

are we playing in the same game?

People are going to try to ruin your day. Get together with others, ruin their day back -  EvE
Vikura
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-05-12 13:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikura
Eternum Praetorian wrote:



If a fleet of 5 Armageddon’s engages another fleet of 5, and each side has 2 logistics ship, the out going DPS remains around 5,000 where as the repair rate of each fleet is now 2,900 (verses EM-Therm) So you are repairing 3/5ths of the incoming damage, on ships that have around 120+ EHP.


So you are complaining that 5 vs. 7 situation is not balanced and the team of 5 might not be able to score a kill at all, or single kill only? Roll
i'm shocked that in a MMO team with more people have better chances to win! Shocked



It should be 7 Arma's vs. 5 Arma's with 2 logistics. So 7000 DPS 213 repair vs. 5000 DPS 2900 repair

OR just 4100 DPS (no logistics) vs. 4780 DPS (logistics) when you remove the DPS that RRs and repairs would cancel.
Selinate
#48 - 2012-05-12 13:49:51 UTC
Garnoo wrote:
i think Eternum Praetorian is just dumb...
"Observe the logistic ship, a vessel that has no stacking penalty to it’s LARGE RR mods" wft? what stacking penalty he wants??? mayby he still thinks guns have stacking penalty or something...

are we playing in the same game?


I don't think. I know.

Shoot the logi, ECM the logi, neut the logi, all viable counters. Game is balanced as far as logis go.
Daniel L'Siata
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#49 - 2012-05-12 14:37:32 UTC
This is a bad thread and you should feel bad. I stopped paying any attention at the parts where you advocated fitting Cap Rechargers to PvP ships and demonstrated no solid understanding whatsoever of how to neutralise Logistics.

Please get off EFT and start undocking, you might learn something.
Aiwha
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-12 14:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiwha
Which is why modern fleet concepts account for RR.

Alpha fleet hits it before logi can react.

PANIC fleets switch targets hilariously fast to out pace logi pilots.


Just about every alliance has their own versions of these two concepts.

Sanity is fun leaving the body.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#51 - 2012-05-12 15:45:24 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
That is an awful lot of healing space wizards.


I'm not a WOW player so I could be wrong here, but shouldn't it be Cleric?

Mr Epeen Cool


Oh come on, you don't "heal" your ship? Pirate

I'm an American, English is my second language...
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#52 - 2012-05-12 16:56:45 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Silly Slot wrote:
I mean i could see nerfing if we had 3 man BS roams going around with 3 logi, and were unstopable and unkillable, but thats just NOT THE CASE.



With three guardians in tow, I can honestly say that I am unkillable unless I am up against 10:1 odds. Not because I am that win, but because of how logi's rep my buffer ship with relation to aggression timers, gates and stations in ever sector of space. If you do not understand this, then you do not understand EVE.



But that sentence has no meaning at all.

It would make no sense if you'd be able to get killed (btw you can : alpha) with 3 logis repping you.

What do you want, removal of logis?

Even if they nerfed it you would just change the number (from 3 to 5 logis) and the problem would be the same.

Stop whining, stop posting, stop playing.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-05-12 17:16:09 UTC
Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Darius Brinn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-05-12 17:25:20 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

A game mechanic balanced on who has the stupidest FC.
Winning?


Yes. The outcome of fights decided by player skill and experience is what we should aim for. Always.
Torneach
Doomheim
#55 - 2012-05-12 17:27:58 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
A game mechanic balanced on who has the stupidest FC.
Winning?


Actually, it is pretty fantastic, you should find yourself a good FC.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#56 - 2012-05-12 17:29:56 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered.


It will be interesting, as the new module will likely break logistics locks on the primary target as well as hostile locks.

On the other hand, if this module comes into common usage fleets will start calling multiple targets (probably called by squadron or wing commanders individually) instead of one primary for the entire fleet. If this happens the job of the logistics pilot becomes much more difficult unless the number of logistics pilots in a fleet is increased and assigned on a squadron basis.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-05-12 19:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
The comments on this thread did surprise me a little. Here is why...




Arrow 1.) I did not fully realize how willfully risk adverse people had become in EVE... until now.
Arrow 2.) Why should a null sec Alpha fleet be the dominate (and almost only) viable form of PVP in this game? You people seem to think that your style of PVP is the only style of PVP.




All your countermeasures to guardians work after a fashion, sure. But none of you really addressed the point of this post. In fact it was not even touched upon. It was DPS vs Tank Vs players at the keyboard, and how that factors into PVP in this MMORPG. I advocated one thing and one thing only, DPS should increase far more per ship (and per player) then tank does. I believe this because I believe that EVE is a better EVE when people know they are going to die when they engage.


Since no post has addressed this, all of your posts are just the upchucked troll dung spewed forth by blobbers and risk adverse fail bears. The post stands, and their is a need in EVE Online right now for GREATER DPS vs TANK. Whether that is nerfing logistics ships or giving RR a general stacking penalty.... I don't really care. But there is a need. The state of small gang PVP in EVE Online is not healthy, and many of us are not interested in playing null sec blobs online.


If CCP does not realize that, they will lose revenue.
If the lot of you don't care about that... then so be it. But that is the reality of EVE Online.



If CCP gave people like me a new and improved venue to experience small gang PVP, with more death, less RR, less blobbing and no capital ships they would see a huge influx of interest. So much so that I image your null sec empires would lose players. I see how that would not be a good thing for you, but this is a game not real life. Lots of people here don't want to play your eve online.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#58 - 2012-05-12 22:27:01 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Going to add to this here, there is another little secret that will result in logistics needing a change. that is a certain lockbreaker module that while messes up ability to lock when active, really eliminates blob tactics. If you start getting targeted, turn on and alot less alpha coming at you. Not seeded, but is on sisi so will have to see how it works. Essentially, they work fine because of the blob where we get enough dps to swamp a logistic or alpha before they can swap targets. If the blob becomes a possible negative, logistics are way to overpowered.


It will be interesting, as the new module will likely break logistics locks on the primary target as well as hostile locks.

On the other hand, if this module comes into common usage fleets will start calling multiple targets (probably called by squadron or wing commanders individually) instead of one primary for the entire fleet. If this happens the job of the logistics pilot becomes much more difficult unless the number of logistics pilots in a fleet is increased and assigned on a squadron basis.


The alpha will be much less intimidating.

I also think the module wont work with friendlies, otherwise some strange mechanics would take place.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#59 - 2012-05-12 22:31:44 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:

Arrow 1.) I did not fully realize how willfully risk adverse people had become in EVE... until now.
.

Quote:
risk adverse


http://youtu.be/OHVjs4aobqs

Stop it goddamit.
De Douche
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-05-12 22:42:44 UTC
1/10 troll

OP is a pro (big fan) logi pilot Shocked

And yes i've flown with him many times... but he doesn't know how I am so .I.. :p