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Why do the Abaddon and Nightmare have such a weak cap?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#41 - 2012-05-07 16:49:57 UTC
The only way I can concieve of someone arguing with a straight face that the Nightmare isn't hugely superior to the (already excellent) Amarr T1 BS is if CCP nerfed them over the weekend while I was away. I did notice there was a small patch to download...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

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James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2012-05-09 02:14:32 UTC
Mister Crispy wrote:
You're comparing the best feature of one with the worst feature of another. You might as well compare the cargo capacity of a Sports Car to an SUV, and conclude that the SUV is better; or compare the work-related stress of a cashier to the stress of a CEO, and conclude that being a cashier is better.

If each battleship has a full rack of Maga Pulse Lasers and a large armor repairer, an Apocalypse runs out of cap in 4:13 and a Nightmare runs out of cap in 3:45. So it isn't like it's THAT much of a difference. Also, the nightmare has one more low/mid-slot, so put a cap mod in there, and its cap is better than the Apocalypse's.

Why are you putting large armor reps on a Nightmare? That just... what?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Copine Callmeknau
Dirty Vagrants
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#43 - 2012-05-09 13:38:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Mister Crispy wrote:
You're comparing the best feature of one with the worst feature of another. You might as well compare the cargo capacity of a Sports Car to an SUV, and conclude that the SUV is better; or compare the work-related stress of a cashier to the stress of a CEO, and conclude that being a cashier is better.

If each battleship has a full rack of Maga Pulse Lasers and a large armor repairer, an Apocalypse runs out of cap in 4:13 and a Nightmare runs out of cap in 3:45. So it isn't like it's THAT much of a difference. Also, the nightmare has one more low/mid-slot, so put a cap mod in there, and its cap is better than the Apocalypse's.

Why are you putting large armor reps on a Nightmare? That just... what?

Obviously a TS fit StyleMare

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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#44 - 2012-05-11 20:56:23 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Lasers require huge amount of cap. It's not the ship's fault. Artybaddon was fleet doctrine when lag made the first shot in a fight the only shot on in a fight.


They still use those. Now even Harbingers with arty. Have seen many in highsec. Probably because of superior alpha arties have compared to pulses/beams.


How does pulse/beam dps compare to arties over long engagements?

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Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2012-05-12 01:42:36 UTC
throwing in my .02 isk here
nightmares are good in only two situations, incursions and amarr space.
ive seen macherial go though a room in half the time as a nightmare AGAINST EM/THERM WEAK RATS
the nm ETF wise is the same as the mach while having significantly less GTFO and tracking and requires cap to function as well as perfect skills just to keep firing.
PVP wise, a few things can happen
red in local: macherial has warped, the NM is still aligning.
has been scrammed: macherial has a good chance of shooting at cruiser+ ships or outrunning them, NM DIAF
neuts: mach can still shoot, NM DIAF
ECM: mach is jammed, NM is jammed
webs: mach is faster, NM DIAF
damage output: mach has farther range/dps/tracking/alpha/ all damage types, nightmare can fit tachs and requires a cap booster to run a shield booster, has equivalent tank/damage to an abbadon.

I have taken a nightmare into PVP and I've seen macherials in PVP. (both died in a fire but the mach managed to take longer to kill because we had to chase it down first)
macherial outperforms nightmare in most ways and has a significant lead in one MAJOR way. it is much better at surviving. nightmare has a significantly less margin of error than a macherial due to the fact the macherial can run away faster, or catch targets faster.

EFT wise they are pretty similar because they both explode like fireworks when shot at, however the macherial outperforms at shooting at things and not getting exploded as fast
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-12 01:53:06 UTC
<-- Wants to see Mach doing 1000+ dps @ 50 km.
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2012-05-12 01:55:08 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
<-- Wants to see Mach doing 1000+ dps @ 50 km.


simple, mach warps out, then warps back in at 0, 1000+ dps @ 50 - 50 km
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-05-12 05:25:49 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Problem is not the ships. It's the cap use of lasers.

The problem isn't the cap use of lasers.

The problem is CCP REFUSES to acknowledge that lasers and Hybrids use cap when designing ships.



There has been an all be declared design pattern of "PvP = Minmtar, Caldari = PvE" for half a decade.

Don't fight it, give up, the sandbox is rigged.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#49 - 2012-05-12 11:39:10 UTC
Voith wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Problem is not the ships. It's the cap use of lasers.

The problem isn't the cap use of lasers.

The problem is CCP REFUSES to acknowledge that lasers and Hybrids use cap when designing ships.



There has been an all be declared design pattern of "PvP = Minmtar, Caldari = PvE" for half a decade.

Don't fight it, give up, the sandbox is rigged.


That's really funny, because I use all four races for both PvE and PvP. But you can keep limiting yourself. Stop playing EFT-online and start actually using the ships and you'll find that it's pretty easy to manage cap with the right setup.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-05-12 13:41:01 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Voith wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Problem is not the ships. It's the cap use of lasers.

The problem isn't the cap use of lasers.

The problem is CCP REFUSES to acknowledge that lasers and Hybrids use cap when designing ships.



There has been an all be declared design pattern of "PvP = Minmtar, Caldari = PvE" for half a decade.

Don't fight it, give up, the sandbox is rigged.


That's really funny, because I use all four races for both PvE and PvP. But you can keep limiting yourself. Stop playing EFT-online and start actually using the ships and you'll find that it's pretty easy to manage cap with the right setup.

Why don't you stop playing Smug online and actually look at the ships.

Why is it that Marauders all have the same base cap, even though some of the ships clearly require more cap to use.
Dirk Culliford
Zero G Universal Enterprises
#51 - 2012-05-12 14:42:45 UTC
1 - you're arguing that the nightmare is not good enough? You're so right, nobody ever uses them....


2 - even if it was only good for some limited roles (hint, it isn't), so what? Maybe we should only have one type of ship that does everything?

3 - you are claiming a ship needs to be cap stable to be worthwhile



Conclusion - get out
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-05-12 17:41:32 UTC
1) I'm not arguing its not good, I'm arguing that it shouldn't have a weaker cap than a tier II BS, and that either the tier 2 BS should have its cap nerfed a bit, or the NM should have its cap buffed.
I'd prefer buffed, because as another poster pointed out, the NM does not stack up favorably to the Mach, but then again, does any faction BS?

2) What roles do you think its good for, as it has already been poined out, the Mach is just as good as the NM for the NM's roles, and much better in others, the Mach does a whole bunch of roles. This is a pirate BS, it should be a cut above the rest, not restricted to roles reserved for basic T1 ships.

3) I have never made that claim

Conclusion: you are a troll
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#53 - 2012-05-12 21:33:32 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
1) I'm not arguing its not good, I'm arguing that it shouldn't have a weaker cap than a tier II BS, and that either the tier 2 BS should have its cap nerfed a bit, or the NM should have its cap buffed.
I'd prefer buffed, because as another poster pointed out, the NM does not stack up favorably to the Mach, but then again, does any faction BS?

The main thing that the mach has going for it is speed. It sacrifices damage projection and tank to achieve this. You're arguing that a ship needs to be changed because the numbers don't line up nicely in a spreadsheet, despite both the ships in question being fine as they are from a balance standpoint.

Verity Sovereign wrote:

2) What roles do you think its good for, as it has already been poined out, the Mach is just as good as the NM for the NM's roles, and much better in others, the Mach does a whole bunch of roles. This is a pirate BS, it should be a cut above the rest, not restricted to roles reserved for basic T1 ships.

The nightmare is much better for incursions. Most rats are out at 20+km when they die, often 35+. The NM does much better DPS at that range than the mach, due to better raw damage projection, as well as better tracking (and that's before counting the extra mids it gets for TCs) It is also better for em weak rat lvl 4s.
Having flown both, extensively, with perfect skills (except pulse/ac spec, which are at 4) I can safely say that the NM outperforms the mach against sansha/blood/drone rats.

Barbie D0ll wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
<-- Wants to see Mach doing 1000+ dps @ 50 km.


simple, mach warps out, then warps back in at 0, 1000+ dps @ 50 - 50 km
By which time the NM would have long since killed whatever it was shooting at.

Verity Sovereign wrote:

I've also said I'd be open to nerfing the cap on the Apoc.
Why? Balancing changes just to make spreadsheets line up is a terrible idea.
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-05-15 05:22:32 UTC
Dirk Culliford wrote:
1 - you're arguing that the nightmare is not good enough? You're so right, nobody ever uses them....


2 - even if it was only good for some limited roles (hint, it isn't), so what? Maybe we should only have one type of ship that does everything?

3 - you are claiming a ship needs to be cap stable to be worthwhile



Conclusion - get out

2) We already have it, its called the Tengu.

Your post is nothing but apologetics for CCPs raging failure to give a **** about ship balance for 3+ years.
Luscius Uta
#55 - 2012-05-15 11:45:00 UTC
There are ships in EVE that are crap and need improvements, but those two are not among them.
Nightmare? Fit energy vampires in two spare highs, they will give you back enough cap so you can keep on shooting.
Abaddon? It has 4 mids, I'm sure you can afford to put a cap recharger or cap booster in one of them (or CPR in one of the lows).

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-05-15 19:15:39 UTC
ELECTR0FREAK wrote:
I'd like to direct this thread's attention to the upcoming ship balance where Amarr battleships have been specifically cited in the argument that there's often little reason to use one ship over another.

The Abbadon's bonuses and stats make it an excellent ship when fitted for tank or gank. It's only real con is it's cap. If it didn't have this con, there really would be almost no reason to fly the other Amarr battleships.

As is, with decent cap skills and careful management, it's not far from the other battleships in overall performance (tank or gank) and manages to do both well enough together to make it worth flying over the Apoc and the Arma most of the time. This is exactly why CCP is going to be re-evaluating the ships and trying to push them into more defined, specific roles.

Which, I'm sure, will result in many tears... internet spaceships are serious business.



I think with Amarr Battleships the original intention was.

~Geddon - in your face high DPS brawler, fit buffer & dmg mods, cap booster, MWD or AB and tackle, Heavy Nuet, MPL II
~Apoc - Stand off range (sniper), fit active, cap rechargers, TC, Sebo, MPL II or MBL II (I have a pulse Apoc, see Scorch vs Aurora)
~Baddon - Tank, DPS fleet warship, fit buffer, cap booster, TC, moar buffer

I've used all three for PVE (never for PVP) The Abaddon is great in a WH with an active tank against low levels of sustained damage. The Apoc is great for L3/4 missioning with 3 min of cap, 75% the targets never get close enough to seriously threaten you before they die. I've had mixed results with the Geddon PVE although the N-Geddon is solid, the N-apoc is vastly superior IMO.

I always use Geddons for bashing structures, and I have couple PVP Geddons stashed away for when I might need them.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-05-15 23:59:24 UTC
Voith wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Voith wrote:
\
The problem isn't the cap use of lasers.

The problem is CCP REFUSES to acknowledge that lasers and Hybrids use cap when designing ships.



There has been an all be declared design pattern of "PvP = Minmtar, Caldari = PvE" for half a decade.

Don't fight it, give up, the sandbox is rigged.


That's really funny, because I use all four races for both PvE and PvP. But you can keep limiting yourself. Stop playing EFT-online and start actually using the ships and you'll find that it's pretty easy to manage cap with the right setup.

Why don't you stop playing Smug online and actually look at the ships.

Why is it that Marauders all have the same base cap, even though some of the ships clearly require more cap to use.


There are good number of other ship comparisons that can be made about how " Minmatar are for PVP and Caldari are for PVE all others are just ... there are others?" being the CCP design concept for years. with the tacked on "oh yeah lets get caldari on the pvp field with recons"

Why do all marauders have the same bandwith? Why does the Onyx have the best tank of all the hictors? Whats up with the Armor repairers vs Shield Boosters rep per second difference?
Pithi A - 76/2/20
Corpii a - 117/6/45

Pithi - 76/2/20
Corpii 39/2/15

Pithi - 228/6/60
Corpii -117/6/45

I would also like to see some Vindicator vs. Nightmare comparisons. Or even throw in the Bhaalgorn more into these discussions. You are all taking the two arguably best pve Pirate battleships and using them to say how the other is underpowered. Any one take a look at the Rattlesnake in a while? massive passive tank but limited and slow Damage application due to drones. Or the Vindicator with its heavy damage from range lacking blasters or terrible performance from rails, seriously, who even fits a Vindi with rails?

Whats a Vindi look like at 50km? A Rattle? Sure you ship isnt all that it could be, but its still steps ahead of the rest of them. what exactly are you looking for?

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#58 - 2012-05-16 02:14:14 UTC
apoc is for sustained fire, it doesn't get a damage bonus, tbh its a pretty meh ship. I don't think I have an apoc (oh look I have 1 left and it was in my suicide ganking prep station)

abaddon, awesome brawler. if you plan on pew pewing for extended periods of time make sure you have a logi/carrier some where near by for cap. cap is pretty much fine unless you are trying to run reppers as well.

nightmare, zomg damage mods everywhere and awesome shield tank.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2012-05-16 06:59:42 UTC
The Nightmare, while good, is behind the Mach, Vindi and Bhaal for PvP.

For Amarr BS'es:
- Geddon is for pure dps, you'll need drone skills
- Apoc is for non high sp players and for structure bashing
- Baddon can do entire spectrum between gank and tank
- Navy Geddon is comparable to Baddon with better cap, better drones and better dps (with drones)
- Navy Apoc dunno
- Pala is PvE Baddon with better cap
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2012-05-16 07:38:42 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
- Navy Apoc dunno

Really just an Apoc with an even better cap and HP (and I think a slightly larger dronebay).

Enjoying the rain today? ;)