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Post-escalation Incursion Changes

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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#181 - 2012-05-11 23:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
If hi-sec is sooo safe, then why is there so much profit in activities like Hulkageddon? Where the sole reason and objective is, to kill people in hi-sec in forced PVP that they are not expecting nor usually able to amount a reasonable defence against

(I do say usually because I do know some people have found ways to protect themselves. But on the most part it is attacking unwitting miners)

To be fair, This hulkageddon is quite different as far as profits due to goon sponsorship.

And I just now realized I'm being rather bad and ruining the purpose of the thread with these exchanges. Apologies, I'm done now.
RebelMC
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#182 - 2012-05-11 23:19:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
RebelMC wrote:

3. While it is true that some elite players could earn up to 160 million isk per hour (based on non stop nco's) this figure only applies to fleets that had 90% bling , the vast majority of players did not earn anywhere near this figure and those same people are now lucky to earn 60 mil an hour but at a much higher risk.


Entitlement, thy name is Incursions....

This right here is what I've been railing against, 60 mil an hour anywhere in eve for shooting rats is ok-ish income much better than I made in my 1st 2 years of eve as a mainly high sec mission runner, that's for sure (even adjusted for inflation).

Now, thanks to badly implemented/easily farmable high sec incursion content (like the old vangaurds), High Sec players are thumbing their nose are more isk than they should have ever been able to make per hour in high sec to begin with. Unbelieveable.

High Sec gets automated game generated police protection, for the good of the game as a whole it simply cannot and should not have ways of making "game money" as well as places that have higher levels of risk.

Quote:

I am sorry to say that this "escalation" patch seems to be very pro low/null sec favoured as a whole hence my original politacal remark. Pre patch people in low/null/wh could generally make alot more isk than those in high which I have no problem with, but post patch the divide has moved to the point where many players especially carebears have no options available to increase their income ie incursions.

While this game is does have a pvp focus , I dont see why that focus should be forced on everyone in order for them to enjoy and succeed in the game if they don't want to, because as it stands I know many that log on half as much as they used to and some not at all :(


That last sentence doesn't make any sense at all.

It's the exact same thing as saying that Soccer (Football for you foreigners...I mean non-Americans :) ) has a focus on feet yes, but that the game should not penalize people who just want to use their hands to throw the ball in the net.....

Simple equation. Live in High Sec, accept less income or take risks in unprotected space for higher profits. Some of you high sec peopel really want to have that cake and eat it too.

No one is judging your "playstyle", simply reminding you that every playstyle choice does and should come with consequences.



Living in high sec doesnt mean you should automatically lose 50% of your income purely down to a patch as what has happened with missions as to your analogies its hard to get a ball in to net when someone keeps moving the goal posts and as to "cake" we are down to one slice and the null sec community dont like us having that either in reference to "hulkageddon" which we are currently experinceing this month.

On a more practical front and if I'm repeating myself my apologies, but incursions only pay out what you put into them ie T2 fleets will always earn less than faction and deadspace and PUG groups will generally earn less than organised fleets. As it stands now it could take months for the average player to earn enough to own a bling ship especially given as its so hard to form a fleet for many players at the moment.

So in a nut shell, incursions are almost impractical now for many pilots, missions pay about 50% less, mining in highsec is suicide and many pilots don;t see any point in logging in. Null sec alliances it seems dont just have the cake they have the whole bakery and don't want to share.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
The Initiative.
#183 - 2012-05-11 23:21:44 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
If hi-sec is sooo safe, then why is there so much profit in activities like Hulkageddon? Where the sole reason and objective is, to kill people in hi-sec in forced PVP that they are not expecting nor usually able to amount a reasonable defence against

(I do say usually because I do know some people have found ways to protect themselves. But on the most part it is attacking unwitting miners)

To be fair, This hulkageddon is quite different as far as profits due to goon sponsorship.


Well, because Goons profit from the death of hulks

Because the hulks need Technetium to be built and Goons are part of the cartel fixing the Technetium prices. So hulks dying puts more money in their pockets than they pay out in prize money.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
The Initiative.
#184 - 2012-05-11 23:34:06 UTC
RebelMC wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
RebelMC wrote:

3. While it is true that some elite players could earn up to 160 million isk per hour (based on non stop nco's) this figure only applies to fleets that had 90% bling , the vast majority of players did not earn anywhere near this figure and those same people are now lucky to earn 60 mil an hour but at a much higher risk.


Entitlement, thy name is Incursions....

This right here is what I've been railing against, 60 mil an hour anywhere in eve for shooting rats is ok-ish income much better than I made in my 1st 2 years of eve as a mainly high sec mission runner, that's for sure (even adjusted for inflation).

Now, thanks to badly implemented/easily farmable high sec incursion content (like the old vangaurds), High Sec players are thumbing their nose are more isk than they should have ever been able to make per hour in high sec to begin with. Unbelieveable.

High Sec gets automated game generated police protection, for the good of the game as a whole it simply cannot and should not have ways of making "game money" as well as places that have higher levels of risk.

Quote:

I am sorry to say that this "escalation" patch seems to be very pro low/null sec favoured as a whole hence my original politacal remark. Pre patch people in low/null/wh could generally make alot more isk than those in high which I have no problem with, but post patch the divide has moved to the point where many players especially carebears have no options available to increase their income ie incursions.

While this game is does have a pvp focus , I dont see why that focus should be forced on everyone in order for them to enjoy and succeed in the game if they don't want to, because as it stands I know many that log on half as much as they used to and some not at all :(


That last sentence doesn't make any sense at all.

It's the exact same thing as saying that Soccer (Football for you foreigners...I mean non-Americans :) ) has a focus on feet yes, but that the game should not penalize people who just want to use their hands to throw the ball in the net.....

Simple equation. Live in High Sec, accept less income or take risks in unprotected space for higher profits. Some of you high sec peopel really want to have that cake and eat it too.

No one is judging your "playstyle", simply reminding you that every playstyle choice does and should come with consequences.



Living in high sec doesnt mean you should automatically lose 50% of your income purely down to a patch as what has happened with missions as to your analogies its hard to get a ball in to net when someone keeps moving the goal posts and as to "cake" we are down to one slice and the null sec community dont like us having that either in reference to "hulkageddon" which we are currently experinceing this month.

On a more practical front and if I'm repeating myself my apologies, but incursions only pay out what you put into them ie T2 fleets will always earn less than faction and deadspace and PUG groups will generally earn less than organised fleets. As it stands now it could take months for the average player to earn enough to own a bling ship especially given as its so hard to form a fleet for many players at the moment.

So in a nut shell, incursions are almost impractical now for many pilots, missions pay about 50% less, mining in highsec is suicide and many pilots don;t see any point in logging in. Null sec alliances it seems dont just have the cake they have the whole bakery and don't want to share.


I see the incursion communities as being another step to a bigger than. More than alliances, it's a group of people that although they don't want to do the null-sec / low-sec thing and belong to such a strict group. With rules and guidelines that they don't agree with. But still want to enjoy the content of Eve with different people, Have fun flying in fleets. And I don't just mean incursion fleets, we've had a few Incursion PVP fleets formed and given some people who were mostly in Eve for the PVE content, their first taste of action in Combat.

I know the incursion community is only a couple thousand players. But not all of them are Just Incursion runners, many also do plexes, missions, 0.0 anoms, piracy, industry, wormholes and PVP.
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#185 - 2012-05-11 23:57:23 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
If hi-sec is sooo safe, then why is there so much profit in activities like Hulkageddon? Where the sole reason and objective is, to kill people in hi-sec in forced PVP that they are not expecting nor usually able to amount a reasonable defence against

(I do say usually because I do know some people have found ways to protect themselves. But on the most part it is attacking unwitting miners)

also, you do not have to kill a ship with hundreds of thousands of HP to attack incursion runners. You just need to stop the logi's from doing their job, this could be ECM, Neut's or ganking them (hard to do since they are small sig and usually orbiting with an AB)

But even the strongest of fleets will not last a few seconds in the second wave of an OTA without logistics.

where do you get the info that Hulkageddon is profitable??

you have the tool to avoid suicide gank, it's called dscan, learn to use it
RebelMC
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#186 - 2012-05-12 00:14:29 UTC
Since patch day I have been in a whopping total of 3 fleets, 2 of which were in this last week and only due to a chance invite.

I personally am not just an incursion runner, I also run missions which are painful since patch, mining - which I havent done since hulkageddon started and manufacturing / trade.

As previously stated which I was unaware of "hulkageddon" is a goons getter richer quicker scheme - um dont they have enough cash already that they need to bite the hand that feeds them as well ? and lets face it its not just goons that kill hulks during this time, many others that have the cash to throw away ships do it as well and most of those in turn are low/null sec pvpers that have no regard for sec status because they generally never live in high sec anyway.

It was never my intent to make this a null vs high argument, but the vast majority of those that are happy with the way things are now are "oh what a shock" null seccers. Some of the changes made to incursions I am happy with and have spiced them up however when sites take up to four times longer and payout is 10% less the reality is its a 50% plus nerf assuming you actiually manage to get a fleet.
Raphael Ordo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#187 - 2012-05-12 01:02:33 UTC
I have one question that has been up before, without any real answer (at least not that i've seen?):

What about cooperating with Sansha's Nation? Is that even an alternative for the roleplaying players?
And is it possible to help the Nation in any way with the incursions?

I really hope this is looked at, since i've always loved EVE's sandbox-free system, not favouring any side really.
ChemicalQueen
Perkone
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-05-12 03:35:50 UTC
Raphael Ordo wrote:
I have one question that has been up before, without any real answer (at least not that i've seen?):

What about cooperating with Sansha's Nation? Is that even an alternative for the roleplaying players?
And is it possible to help the Nation in any way with the incursions?

I really hope this is looked at, since i've always loved EVE's sandbox-free system, not favouring any side really.


An interesting concept that should be looked at as a long term change. I believe this threads purpose is to discuss fixing the issue in the short term. Not to mean your point isn't valid - I would like to see more ideas like this - but lets focus on fixing things in the short term for now.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#189 - 2012-05-12 04:07:23 UTC
Apolyon I wrote:
you have the tool to avoid suicide gank, it's called dscan, learn to use it

Use orca to collapse gates, and never stop scanning new gatesLol
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#190 - 2012-05-12 04:15:27 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Apolyon I wrote:
you have the tool to avoid suicide gank, it's called dscan, learn to use it

Use orca to collapse gates, and never stop scanning new gatesLol

really, you need to learn how to use it Lol
Capitano Rivel
Doomheim
#191 - 2012-05-12 04:45:07 UTC
Inucrsion Short-Term fix thread is evolving...

dada
dada
daa
daaa

CONGRATULATIONS your Incursion Short-Term fix thread has evolved into high vs null sec trolling thread.

http://mlfw.info/f/4753/
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#192 - 2012-05-12 06:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
I remain concerned that higher end assault and HQ sites are underpaid for the expenditure of time and effort involved. Given how much there is involved in herding enough cats to complete one, especially with some of the site designs, I don't think it's unreasonable to double the payout for assaults and give HQs a quadruple payout of isk and LP. Also, this would be consistent with risk vs. reward, because assault and HQ sites (and mom) sites are the only ones I've seen groups wipe simply because of bad luck vs. someone being hilariously dumb or gloriously AFK in a VG site.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#193 - 2012-05-12 07:17:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
I think CCP got some good feedback from multiple points of view initially out of this thread, but I don't know why people are surprised how it eventually ends up as a **** flinging match. Fact of the matter is that High Sec Incursions is a very controversial and divisive feature of EVE.

I honestly believe EVE would have been much better off if Incursions had never been implemented, but it's here now, so CCP has deal with it and start fixing the damage its caused. Hopefully in the future it can be transformed into something that's actually a positive for EVE.

With more complex solutions off the table for now, the only real fix for Incursions shy of removal altogether from High Sec is further Income nerfs.
xVx dreadnaught
modro
The Initiative.
#194 - 2012-05-12 09:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
Apolyon I wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
If hi-sec is sooo safe, then why is there so much profit in activities like Hulkageddon? Where the sole reason and objective is, to kill people in hi-sec in forced PVP that they are not expecting nor usually able to amount a reasonable defence against

(I do say usually because I do know some people have found ways to protect themselves. But on the most part it is attacking unwitting miners)

also, you do not have to kill a ship with hundreds of thousands of HP to attack incursion runners. You just need to stop the logi's from doing their job, this could be ECM, Neut's or ganking them (hard to do since they are small sig and usually orbiting with an AB)

But even the strongest of fleets will not last a few seconds in the second wave of an OTA without logistics.

where do you get the info that Hulkageddon is profitable??

you have the tool to avoid suicide gank, it's called dscan, learn to use it


But you have D-scan in W-space and null sec also... yet Hi-sec is super safe and concord will stop anyone from killing you.

Also, the facts on suicide ganking. From my short experience doing it. I put together several Destroyers at a cost of around 8-9 mill each. As long as the modules/salvage from my wreck and the targets => my costs, I am level... if I do 10 hulks/mack's I get a bonus prize from Goons of 100 million.

The reason it's profit for Goons because for every time they sell Technetium to someone making hulks they net around 100 million profit. So All they need is 1 person to buy Technetium from them for every pay out for them to cover their costs. If all 10 hulk/mack losses are replaced by their Technetium they would be making around 900 million (after paying the Hulkageddon pilot)

Source
xVx dreadnaught
modro
The Initiative.
#195 - 2012-05-12 09:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: xVx dreadnaught
Capitano Rivel wrote:
Inucrsion Short-Term fix thread is evolving...

dada
dada
daa
daaa

CONGRATULATIONS your Incursion Short-Term fix thread has evolved into high vs null sec trolling thread.

http://mlfw.info/f/4753/


Well i gave several possible short term fixes as ideas and a more evolved long term expansion idea that they could use as a project for the future development of incursions... but I didn't get a comment on it from a Dev, I guess since I'm only a long time member of the incursion community, my opinion doesn't matter to CCP in a thread titled "Post-escalation Incursion Changes"
plexlon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-05-12 09:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: plexlon
Edited for simplicity. The changes were too dramatic. That sort of thing is bad for cconfidence.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#197 - 2012-05-12 11:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Capitano Rivel wrote:
Inucrsion Short-Term fix thread is evolving...

dada
dada
daa
daaa

CONGRATULATIONS your Incursion Short-Term fix thread has evolved into high vs null sec trolling thread.

http://mlfw.info/f/4753/


Well i gave several possible short term fixes as ideas and a more evolved long term expansion idea that they could use as a project for the future development of incursions... but I didn't get a comment on it from a Dev, I guess since I'm only a long time member of the incursion community, my opinion doesn't matter to CCP in a thread titled "Post-escalation Incursion Changes"


The total lack of responces/contact from CCP with the armor community is **** poor IMHO. If CCP is only going to talk to the shield community in HI SEC and let the rest of the communities die like it appears to have happened in lo/NULL SEC well shame of you CCP. Sorry CCP Affinity but just leaving this in the lap of a single CCP DEV to handle is just in my eyes a delaying tactic hoping things will blow over. CCP SoundWave's and his single thread with no replies followed by your thread there means IMHO that CCP is for the most part seeing if everything will just die down and they are out of touch too many game players.

I'll give it 1 more month I guess before I unsub for a bit in disgust
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
xVx dreadnaught
modro
The Initiative.
#198 - 2012-05-12 13:12:31 UTC
I'm not going to rage-quit over the incursion nerf.

I enjoy Eve too much to let 1 part of it being ruined to leave it.

But I do find it a shame that the incursion community of thousands of players is going to suffer because CCP doesn't want to listen to the players using the actual content.

xVx dreadnaught wrote:


1. Reduce the NCN pockets from 3 to 2 and allow Command ships into both sides of the acceleration gate.

2. Make hacking despawn Mara's and Niarja's also make it mandatory to complete OTA's (or continuous waves spawn after the 3rd wave is down) and move the Logistics Array to within 50km of the warp in point of the site.

3. Move the warp in point on NMC's 20Km deeper into the pocket so it's closer to the station and Asteroid as well as the NPC.

4. Reduce the number of Romi in OCF from 4 - 2, most fleets don't kill all the Romi anyway, once the cans dropped for the Civi's the rest are left. It seems just a pointless waist of time to have so many Romi, to kill and hope the can spawns.

5. Move the gates in the TPPH sites 10km closer together and remove all armor and structure hit points on the station.


I wouldn't mind some feedback on my proposed changes. Does anyone disagree with me in thinking that these would not only bring some balance but also make the sites more enjoyable?
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2012-05-12 14:56:37 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Capitano Rivel wrote:
Inucrsion Short-Term fix thread is evolving...

dada
dada
daa
daaa

CONGRATULATIONS your Incursion Short-Term fix thread has evolved into high vs null sec trolling thread.

http://mlfw.info/f/4753/


Well i gave several possible short term fixes as ideas and a more evolved long term expansion idea that they could use as a project for the future development of incursions... but I didn't get a comment on it from a Dev, I guess since I'm only a long time member of the incursion community, my opinion doesn't matter to CCP in a thread titled "Post-escalation Incursion Changes"


The total lack of responces/contact from CCP with the armor community is **** poor IMHO. If CCP is only going to talk to the shield community in HI SEC and let the rest of the communities die like it appears to have happened in lo/NULL SEC well shame of you CCP. Sorry CCP Affinity but just leaving this in the lap of a single CCP DEV to handle is just in my eyes a delaying tactic hoping things will blow over. CCP SoundWave's and his single thread with no replies followed by your thread there means IMHO that CCP is for the most part seeing if everything will just die down and they are out of touch too many game players.

I'll give it 1 more month I guess before I unsub for a bit in disgust




This Prove's to a lot of people you know nothing about what CCP is doing etc, Read the post's, Affinity is talking to some Armor FC's, Just because you don't feel special does not mean you need to post complete trash on this thread.

If you lack Information which you do not even know about, Save the bother of posting.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
ChemicalQueen
Perkone
Caldari State
#200 - 2012-05-12 16:38:46 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Capitano Rivel wrote:
Inucrsion Short-Term fix thread is evolving...

dada
dada
daa
daaa

CONGRATULATIONS your Incursion Short-Term fix thread has evolved into high vs null sec trolling thread.

http://mlfw.info/f/4753/


Well i gave several possible short term fixes as ideas and a more evolved long term expansion idea that they could use as a project for the future development of incursions... but I didn't get a comment on it from a Dev, I guess since I'm only a long time member of the incursion community, my opinion doesn't matter to CCP in a thread titled "Post-escalation Incursion Changes"


The total lack of responces/contact from CCP with the armor community is **** poor IMHO. If CCP is only going to talk to the shield community in HI SEC and let the rest of the communities die like it appears to have happened in lo/NULL SEC well shame of you CCP. Sorry CCP Affinity but just leaving this in the lap of a single CCP DEV to handle is just in my eyes a delaying tactic hoping things will blow over. CCP SoundWave's and his single thread with no replies followed by your thread there means IMHO that CCP is for the most part seeing if everything will just die down and they are out of touch too many game players.

I'll give it 1 more month I guess before I unsub for a bit in disgust




This Prove's to a lot of people you know nothing about what CCP is doing etc, Read the post's, Affinity is talking to some Armor FC's, Just because you don't feel special does not mean you need to post complete trash on this thread.

If you lack Information which you do not even know about, Save the bother of posting.

Ya it's a bit presumptuous that a dev has the time to respond to and discuss ideas with every single one of us. If you feel the need to contribute something and think its a different/important enough idea, contact him directly. I still feel confident a dev has read each and every idea discussed here so far.