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New dev blog: Factional Warfare overhaul

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zero2espect
Space-Brewery-Association
#301 - 2012-05-11 21:21:27 UTC
well. 0000 has been in FW for nearly 4 years. I have been in or around FW from the very start.

based on everything here, on or just after patch day, 0000 will be leaving Amarr FW.

We are one of the last 4 or 5 active FW corps for Amarr FW and we wish our brothers in arms the best in a now un-winnable situation.

It is a sad day when CCP takes one of the last bastions of small scale fleet warfare and hands it to the blob-dogs.

The decision is not a light one to take, however we will not simply sit back and watch everything we have fought for, over so many years, decapitated, raped and mutilated overnight.

You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores".

This revamp was an opportunity to really ignite FW and turn it into a home for everybody who "doesn't want all of pvp eve to be like 0.0" and now we're left with what everybody has been saying you would do to FW for the last 12 months, turn FW into "0.0 Light".

Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds (and have to base ships 3 jumps out in high sec just to get a fight). We've already lost all our systems - there's not going to be any fights over them like you believe in your imagination, the mechanics simply make it impossible.

Here's what's going to happen. Amarr will have to base all it's ships in nearby high-sec (almost every corp has or is already moving all their stuff). Mims will move all their stuff to Kam, Huo and Kourm. They will have reships, capitals, numbers, bonuses and the mechanics of static plexes all working on their side to simply plink away ANYTHING that Amarr FW can muster in terms of a fleet. hell, if Amarr is lucky, the Mims will be stupid and gate camp the entry gates like 0.0, that way when an Amarr fleet gets murdered, there is only 1 Jump to go reship. It's going to be fun for the Amarr guys that are left, the first time some triage carriers get jumped onto anything approaching a "fair" fleet fight - I mean it's not like you will be able to deploy any yourself....

This isn't sour grapes. I expect a lot of "lol tears" replies. Well that's all and good, but we are the Number 6 all time corp in Amarr FW and 5 of the Top 10 all-time killers in Amarr FW are (or were) 0000. We will go toe to toe with anybody, anywhere -but having your head kicked-in by a patch is just plain depressing. Thanks but we'll stand proud and leave on top instead of being ground into stardust by mechanics.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#302 - 2012-05-11 22:07:12 UTC
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite, thank you.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#303 - 2012-05-11 22:20:57 UTC
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:
"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?

Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.


Always good to see Goon tears.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Blau Viper
Last of the Brunnen-G
#304 - 2012-05-11 22:39:14 UTC
CCP Phantom T2 BPOs, Datacore and Invention are all linked the and changing one without addressing the Elephant in the room is a mistake.

Anyone would think you didn't want to talk about the real issues.
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2012-05-11 22:57:58 UTC
zero2espect wrote:
well. 0000 has been in FW for nearly 4 years. I have been in or around FW from the very start.

based on everything here, on or just after patch day, 0000 will be leaving Amarr FW.

We are one of the last 4 or 5 active FW corps for Amarr FW and we wish our brothers in arms the best in a now un-winnable situation.

It is a sad day when CCP takes one of the last bastions of small scale fleet warfare and hands it to the blob-dogs.

The decision is not a light one to take, however we will not simply sit back and watch everything we have fought for, over so many years, decapitated, raped and mutilated overnight.

You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores".

This revamp was an opportunity to really ignite FW and turn it into a home for everybody who "doesn't want all of pvp eve to be like 0.0" and now we're left with what everybody has been saying you would do to FW for the last 12 months, turn FW into "0.0 Light".

Just as an insight, it's Friday night, peak EU TZ and Amarr TS has 13 pilots on it (after a quick check about half are active). The mims probably have 2 or 3 times that number in each of the 2 or 3 fleets closing plexes in preparation for patch day. Amarr FW is dead. And these mechanics make it impossible to recruit anybody willing to go 1:6 against the odds (and have to base ships 3 jumps out in high sec just to get a fight). We've already lost all our systems - there's not going to be any fights over them like you believe in your imagination, the mechanics simply make it impossible.

Here's what's going to happen. Amarr will have to base all it's ships in nearby high-sec (almost every corp has or is already moving all their stuff). Mims will move all their stuff to Kam, Huo and Kourm. They will have reships, capitals, numbers, bonuses and the mechanics of static plexes all working on their side to simply plink away ANYTHING that Amarr FW can muster in terms of a fleet. hell, if Amarr is lucky, the Mims will be stupid and gate camp the entry gates like 0.0, that way when an Amarr fleet gets murdered, there is only 1 Jump to go reship. It's going to be fun for the Amarr guys that are left, the first time some triage carriers get jumped onto anything approaching a "fair" fleet fight - I mean it's not like you will be able to deploy any yourself....

This isn't sour grapes. I expect a lot of "lol tears" replies. Well that's all and good, but we are the Number 6 all time corp in Amarr FW and 5 of the Top 10 all-time killers in Amarr FW are (or were) 0000. We will go toe to toe with anybody, anywhere -but having your head kicked-in by a patch is just plain depressing. Thanks but we'll stand proud and leave on top instead of being ground into stardust by mechanics.


Well said zero.

CCP what are you going to do now that you gave a milita the ability to kill FW? This will truly be a successful expansion, remembered for killing a feature you forgot about.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2012-05-11 23:06:54 UTC
Nice dev blog.
Makes FW look interesting and rewarding. Reading through thread I might get an alt to join amarr faction. Looks like there will be an absolute tonne of LP to gain from killing Minmatars.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#307 - 2012-05-11 23:22:08 UTC
I know the faction war is not the only place to get datacores in the future, but is there an issue with Caldari and Gallente having all the datacores for T3 subsystems (not counting the actual subsystem ones) while Amarr and Minmatar have none.

I am going by memory here, but I think they are

Gallente

- Electronic
- Plasma

Caldari

- Hydromagnetic
- Quantum
- Rocket?

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Ramman K'arojic
Lone Star Warriors
Brave Collective
#308 - 2012-05-12 00:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramman K'arojic
I have been reading the blog & comments about datacores from R&D agents.
Datacores from factional WF - fine an excellent 2nd faucet.


That leaves the question what to do about R&D agents. What your proposing is Wrong; reducing them is *wrong*. What you need to get is people to be involved in there NPC corps and to work form them. Greater there involvement in the NPC corp, they should get greater rewards.

The following is what popped into my head during sleep.

  • You keep a count of how much LP has been rewarded each month for missioning for each Level agent for that NPC corp;
  • Using a sliding scale of LP you determine how much to modify the data core RP price
  • In theory if you run L3 agents and L3 R*D agents and you earn 4000 LP a month you pay 0% premium, if you run no agents missions you pay 50% more , at 20000 LP you would pay 40% less (Or something similar). Different R*D agents have different LP levels.
  • If you run multiple R&D agents from the same NPC crop its reduced by some stacking penalty




This isn't about making farming continuing its about ensuring that you need to keep your appearances with each NPC for the data-cores to be best priced; and even a little ugly if you dont..

Bottom line is - dont kill 1 way because you dont like it; make that way work; thought you would have learnt that by now CCP.

Ramm
Vonlutt
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#309 - 2012-05-12 00:57:32 UTC
ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying.
Bayushi Tamago
Sect of the Crimson Eisa
#310 - 2012-05-12 01:49:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bayushi Tamago
Nice to see changes to FW, however, I can't comment of the repricussions of them, as I don't do FW. But, their LP stores already make enough things too cheap for non-FW people to compete with on the market (PI offices, implants etc).

I don't like the datacore retrieval changes for R&D agents, however, I can understand why you see it as a problem. I would have hoped taking away RP generation while not subbed would have been enough though. Just don't put datacores in FW LP stores, because that's likely going to break the datacore market and kill a lot of t2 production, both of which are already horrendously skill intensive and expensive.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#311 - 2012-05-12 01:50:12 UTC
zero2espect wrote:

You should take into consideration who is giving you feedback, before you slap yourselves on the back CCP. You have the CEOs or senior members of the last active Amarr FW corps saying the changes are "not the best" and you have 99% of all Minmatar pilots saying how awesome it's going to be and people who have never been in FW saying it is "good except for data cores"..


Good post but I would say there are quite a few minmatar who see the new sytem is null sec lite and don't like it.

What I find is that people who are quick to defend null sec blob mechanics and like tell everyone "herp derp htfu" are the ones most in support of these changes. There are allot of such people in eve now and they are likely to make up an even larger percent of the eve population, unless ccp does something to recognize casual small scale pvpers are important to them.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Linus Gengod
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2012-05-12 02:18:38 UTC
I am NOT in favor of the Datacore changes as currently being described.

For me, the datacore thing sounds like a solution looking for a problem.

I understand wanting to do something about the "free flow of datacores" I guess... but anyone who thinks farming datacores is a great source of ISK has never done it themselves. There is no reason to explain again, this thread is full of good examples of how farming datacores is not a very strong source of income.

For me, I just don't understand the idea of making datacores available from the FW LP stores. The idea of "shoot stuff to get datacores" just makes no sense, especially to a scientist or inventor. As someone else said, it reminds me of "shoot stuff to get minerals" which CCP obviously decided was a bad move. PLEASE DONT REPEAT THAT BAD MOVE!

I am an Inventor and Builder of T2 stuff. So I actually use datacores, I don't sell them. So in a way I will just have to wait and see what happens to the price of datacores, etc. And in the end, inventors who need datacores will get them one way or another, UNLESS this makes invention less and less profitable, which is possible.... especially due to the issue of T2 BPOs which still exist. If you really want to shake things up, put a ticking time bomb on T2 BPOs.

But CCP, PLEASE, think a little about datacores and about the industry of T2 invention / manufacturing. Please don't kill R&D NPC corps, please listen to the other good ideas here. I like the idea of making datacores available from R&D corp LP stores, for example... that would MAKE SENSE. But moving them to FW really doesn't make sense at all. Really.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#313 - 2012-05-12 04:27:43 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
R&D skills will unfortunately not be reimbursed as this profession is not going away - it will most likely be looked into and changed into a more active state separately in the future not to abandon players that invested time and effort into it.
Yeeeaaahh.... Given CCP's track record on those sorts of assurances that's not likely to happen anytime soon (if ever). I mean it's not like you guys said the same thing when you jacked up Deep Space Probes. Or released Black Ops. Or figured out that you screwed up Gallente in general. Or a million other well-intentioned assurances that never saw the light of day. Just saying....
Sarinat Talen
Celestial Arms Manufacturing and Operations
#314 - 2012-05-12 05:30:59 UTC
Of the passive income of datacores really is a problem, just make them cost LPs and RPs at a ratio of 5:1 at an R&D corp. Instant active profession.
Morgan Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#315 - 2012-05-12 07:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Morgan Dinn
Hey hold on...

Does this mean you will get mechanical cores only from Minmatar space and agents?

Cause if it does this means I will loose all my R&D agents when the update comes and I would need to retrain them and if gathering RP comes and active profession it would be just stupid to do any kind of training on alts that I have cause I can do the active playing on main anyways.

So... WTF

Also your saying it's passive. So isn't invention, research, manufacturing, PI and most industrial things kinda passive also? How about you "fix" them while your at it.

This just seems that this will end in nightmares for most of the players it effects.
Zagdul
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2012-05-12 08:03:25 UTC
This needs to be implemented into nullsec Sov Warfare.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement
Stragak
#317 - 2012-05-12 08:52:58 UTC
kinda want to say this "BOOO!", at least to the R and D side any guesses it takes an active percipient in the eve experience to to get decent standing's. However don't get me wrong I have served in the caldari militia on many occasions but flipping a man. The amount of missions i had to run to even give two snits about it R and D.

"Oh look, the cat is sitting in the litter box and pooping over the side again" every time we go through these "rough patches". In good humor, and slight annoyance, Boiglio   https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238130&p=82
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#318 - 2012-05-12 08:53:56 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Nice dev blog.
Makes FW look interesting and rewarding. Reading through thread I might get an alt to join amarr faction. Looks like there will be an absolute tonne of LP to gain from killing Minmatars.

Yeah, excellent plan. Now read the blog again .. LP-for-Kills is still pretty low and any LP you make will only be worth 25-33% of current thanks to the Shakorites snowballing the area, getting +20% on all LP earned and a 75% discount in their LP store.
You would make more LP running level 3 FW missions for Shakor than joining Amarr for plexing/killing purposes.
Vonlutt wrote:
ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying.

The fall surge is almost purely PvP oriented which is a moot point as we have always been able to kill you lot even when outnumbered. Problem is that we have always needed 2-3x your numbers when it comes to plexing to keep pace due to NPC and geographical imbalances .. something that will be exasperated by being unable to dock anywhere in LS due to being snowballed .. the fall surge, were it to go plexing crazy, is not even close to providing the manpower to make up for the changes in the patch.

Quit crying you say .. crying not so much, but a majority of Amarr Militia will be quitting so half of those words were accurate. Have fun running missions in bombers ad nauseum and welcome to FarmVille™ Eve Edition.
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#319 - 2012-05-12 09:29:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Vonlutt wrote:
ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying.


This. Other things Amarrian corp splitted the amarrian FW activity, they doing other Ops and when a plilot want to joining to an opeations, they just say This is PIE. operations, This is Zero Heavy industries OP, this is Imperial Fedaykin op.

They using other comm softwares and channels. The matars use a merged Eve Voice channel, Why to wonder any amarrian corp if the matar militia spank them ? LOL

Amarr FW corps bunch full of noob, almost all just go to LP farming for Navy slicers. 300 members on FW chat and when they need to fight, they just do nothing or just few players go to pvp for help to other members.

So, amarrian pilots, dont cry just go fight.
Check militia member numbers on FW panel and see the truth for numbers.
BOCCO BREARLEY
CorpyMcCorpCorpCorpCorpCorp
#320 - 2012-05-12 10:23:31 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Vonlutt wrote:
ITT lots of amarr tears. Give it a few months and Amarr will outnumber minmatar again like it does every Summer until Christmas. Quit crying.


This. Other things Amarrian corp splitted the amarrian FW activity, they doing other Ops and when a plilot want to joining to an opeations, they just say This is PIE. operations, This is Zero Heavy industries OP, this is Imperial Fedaykin op.

They using other comm softwares and channels. The matars use a merged Eve Voice channel, Why to wonder any amarrian corp if the matar militia spank them ? LOL

Amarr FW corps bunch full of noob, almost all just go to LP farming for Navy slicers. 300 members on FW chat and when they need to fight, they just do nothing or just few players go to pvp for help to other members.

So, amarrian pilots, dont cry just go fight.
Check militia member numbers on FW panel and see the truth for numbers.


Really, I mean really?

Zero Heavy Industries have always held open fleets, everyone has their own coms including us but you'll find us on amarr TS3.

The numbers in the Militia Office window (possibly the worst and most under devloped window in the game), do these include active accounts? Do they show people who actually play amarr having 4374 members - thats a laugh.

FW was fun and now it is a sad hollow shell of what it was, it was left too long and now the changes that have been long awaited will kill it. If this was the intention then +1 to CCP - job well done.

Station lock outs will kill it, the other changes, Datacores / LP stuff like that - who cares but the additional jumps required to reship in fights - akkk.