These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Interstellar travel, Capital RR, and Triage discussions
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Masterofone
#21 - 2012-05-09 00:06:41 UTC
Perhaps the OP would like to read what a JUMP drive actually is and why the cyno field is needed?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jump_drive

"Capital ships require a jump target in order for their jump drives to lock onto and create a temporary controlled worm-hole between the origin and destination system."

You are NOT warping, you don't pass through or by any systems. You are using worm-hole technology to fold space. The Jump drive is actually a worm-hole generator and the "fuel" is to power that generator. If you don't have enough fuel for the distance you don't generate enough power and cannot open a WH. WH travel in all the sci-fi i can remember is pretty much instant, maybe a handful of seconds at best.

Now if you want to find a new use for Jump Drives - how about an overload module for self destruct, your super-cap is under attack, pinned down, your fleet beat down, help wont arrive in time? 3 minute timer and your jump drive blows up creating a temporary unstable WH where you were and does mega amounts of damage AND/OR transports ships around you to a random location (wh space, null, or low, maybe high for small ships). Maybe base the effects on the amount of fuel in the ship? And no, the pilots pod does not survive, or has a very low chance(<5%) with 100 percent chance of going through the WH if it does.

Wonder what would happen if you could turn on a jump drive while warping?

Fly fast and shoot straight, find peace when you need it, war when you want it, love always and turn up the music.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-05-09 02:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
What do you think about adding FTL drives too?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#23 - 2012-05-09 05:11:00 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Your corp name says everything I think about this post.


This.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-05-09 06:50:56 UTC
Lol
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-05-09 07:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jackal Datapaw
A Titian jump drive doesn't work any where close to a warp drive. For one, it limited in speed, the warp drive that is. (based on ship type and class) B, Like Masterofone said, they are basically ripping space and time apart, so they are traveling so fast, they would pop up in local, then vanish from local so fast, that you wouldn't even be able to register what happen.

Second, titans do have a counter, their cost to build, operate one, and maintain them. Second, doomsday device doesn't kill everything around them, they can only target one ship at a time, and they have an activation time of 600 seconds, do you know how long 600 seconds of doing nothing is in a 300 vs 300 man fleet?

Also, I would like to join your corp if you can support 50 titans in one battle.


Also killing a cryno user while they are in mid warp doesn't fully solve the problem as they will all just warp to the bookmark that the cryno user created just in case.

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-05-09 11:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Jackal Datapaw wrote:
A Titian jump drive doesn't work any where close to a warp drive. For one, it limited in speed, the warp drive that is. (based on ship type and class) B, Like Masterofone said, they are basically ripping space and time apart, so they are traveling so fast, they would pop up in local, then vanish from local so fast, that you wouldn't even be able to register what happen.

Second, titans do have a counter, their cost to build, operate one, and maintain them. Second, doomsday device doesn't kill everything around them, they can only target one ship at a time, and they have an activation time of 600 seconds, do you know how long 600 seconds of doing nothing is in a 300 vs 300 man fleet?

Also, I would like to join your corp if you can support 50 titans in one battle.


Also killing a cryno user while they are in mid warp doesn't fully solve the problem as they will all just warp to the bookmark that the cryno user created just in case.


I am looking to change the way jump drives work, not go over how things currently work. PS: The warp drive also bends space time. Most travel though space in the sci-fi world does that in some way or another. The FTL drive actually travels through subspace, which is a cool concept too and Eve is welcome to adopt that lore, if they wish.

We already established that interstellar travel almost never involves passing very near other systems. If a capital pilot were to drop out of jump between systems, this would illustrate the immense distances and impress all Eve pilots of the vastness of Eve.

On a side note: Cost to build, maintain, or operate is not a counter. A counter is something that an opponent can do to negate or diminish a tactic. Waiting time is not a counter either. Those are simply drawbacks. Without drawbacks, their power would be infinite. Without counters, their power remains undiminishable and unstoppable by the opponent. I am not a Titan pilot, so I don't know the costs beyond building and fuel for the bridge and jump, so feel free to mail me more info on that subject. But this thread should continue to focus on capital jump drives.

Imagine the following:
A capital ship drops out of jump for some reason and finds himself 3 light years from the nearest system. He gets reports of hostiles in all surrounding systems engaged in heated battles. He doesn't know where to go and waits a little too long in one place. Several hostile players notice his capital ship on their long range scanners and deploy their long range probes to have a look. The hostile capital fleet is bearing down on the remains of his friends and are alerted to the intel of his capital ship. He puts his ship into continuous warp mode towards a distant system in order to gain time to decide what to do and possibly get help. The hostile cap fleet jumps to an lock on his ship only moments ago, several AU away. Another lock on his ship shows the direction of his warp and the capital fleet enters jump in the same direction for a moment and then exit to warp while upon him. One capital ship activates the anti-warp bubble and everyone drops out of warp. He is pointed. But does he have capital friends? And can he wait up to 6 minutes for their jump drives to get them to him.

Some ideas. Variations could also be really fun too. Travel can and should be fun and enjoyable, and include tactical and counter-tactical elements as well, which is to say allow battle and safety as well.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#27 - 2012-05-09 11:54:09 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

Too bad no nearby ships can enter the same wormhole at the same instant. Why not? Maybe because there is no wormhole. Cyno jammers do not prevent wormholes in the system. The duration of a wormhole is not dependent on the distance between systems. CCP has been quite clear that they do not intend to allow ships to generate wormholes. And the wormhole wiki page mentions nothing of jump drives.


How do jump drives work then?

Stating that no nearby ships can enter the same wormhole is incorrect. The WH that a titan creates is large enough and stable enough to accomodate other ships.

You're assuming that jump drives don't create wormholes because you're assuming that it would be the same as a wormhole in the wild (ie a naturally occuring wormhole). This isn't the case. The wormhole created by a jump drive is controlled, contained and uses a massive amount of energy to stabalize for a very short period of time (and requires fuel as well as cap energy). Therefore the wormhole created by a standard jump drive is only designed (probably due to engineering and power limits) to service the ship creating it. With a Titan, it's so much bigger, has so much more power and is large enough for all the infrastructure to create a wormhole that is both stable enough and large enough for other ships to go throught it before it does itself.

Whilst CCP might well have stated they're not going to have ships creating wormholes they mean the wormholes that persist, not the ones which are used by jump drives to shift ships around.

You've been rather vocal about trolls ruining your thread. Has it occurred to you that perhaps not all the people you perceive as being trolls are actually trolls? Some of them just think your idea isn't very good.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#28 - 2012-05-09 12:02:54 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

I am looking to change the way jump drives work


Why? It works fine at the moment.

Andy Landen wrote:

If a capital pilot were to drop out of jump between systems, this would illustrate the immense distances and impress all Eve pilots of the vastness of Eve.


And be a giant ballache for all concerned. It would also reintroduce deep (very deep) safes which CCP has stated will not be returning to the game.

Andy Landen wrote:

Travel can and should be fun and enjoyable, and include tactical and counter-tactical elements as well, which is to say allow battle and safety as well.


I'm not sure travel without incident is ever fun. There is already tactical and counter-tactical elements to travel in eve. Other than causing people extreme ballache, akin to being repeatedly shot in the groin with an automatic tennis ball server, I'm not sure what real benefit this would bring to the game.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#29 - 2012-05-09 17:21:32 UTC
Feligast wrote:
No.


Can't get any simpler than this.

Sorry, but your ideas hardly justify discussion. They're just bad.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2012-05-09 17:22:24 UTC
And continuing to write long winded posts doesn't make the idea any better.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2012-05-09 22:05:12 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Jackal Datapaw wrote:
A Titian jump drive doesn't work any where close to a warp drive. For one, it limited in speed, the warp drive that is. (based on ship type and class) B, Like Masterofone said, they are basically ripping space and time apart, so they are traveling so fast, they would pop up in local, then vanish from local so fast, that you wouldn't even be able to register what happen.

Second, titans do have a counter, their cost to build, operate one, and maintain them. Second, doomsday device doesn't kill everything around them, they can only target one ship at a time, and they have an activation time of 600 seconds, do you know how long 600 seconds of doing nothing is in a 300 vs 300 man fleet?

Also, I would like to join your corp if you can support 50 titans in one battle.


Also killing a cryno user while they are in mid warp doesn't fully solve the problem as they will all just warp to the bookmark that the cryno user created just in case.


I am looking to change the way jump drives work, not go over how things currently work. PS: The warp drive also bends space time. Most travel though space in the sci-fi world does that in some way or another. The FTL drive actually travels through subspace, which is a cool concept too and Eve is welcome to adopt that lore, if they wish.

We already established that interstellar travel almost never involves passing very near other systems. If a capital pilot were to drop out of jump between systems, this would illustrate the immense distances and impress all Eve pilots of the vastness of Eve.

On a side note: Cost to build, maintain, or operate is not a counter. A counter is something that an opponent can do to negate or diminish a tactic. Waiting time is not a counter either. Those are simply drawbacks. Without drawbacks, their power would be infinite. Without counters, their power remains undiminishable and unstoppable by the opponent. I am not a Titan pilot, so I don't know the costs beyond building and fuel for the bridge and jump, so feel free to mail me more info on that subject. But this thread should continue to focus on capital jump drives.

Imagine the following:
A capital ship drops out of jump for some reason and finds himself 3 light years from the nearest system. He gets reports of hostiles in all surrounding systems engaged in heated battles. He doesn't know where to go and waits a little too long in one place. Several hostile players notice his capital ship on their long range scanners and deploy their long range probes to have a look. The hostile capital fleet is bearing down on the remains of his friends and are alerted to the intel of his capital ship. He puts his ship into continuous warp mode towards a distant system in order to gain time to decide what to do and possibly get help. The hostile cap fleet jumps to an lock on his ship only moments ago, several AU away. Another lock on his ship shows the direction of his warp and the capital fleet enters jump in the same direction for a moment and then exit to warp while upon him. One capital ship activates the anti-warp bubble and everyone drops out of warp. He is pointed. But does he have capital friends? And can he wait up to 6 minutes for their jump drives to get them to him.

Some ideas. Variations could also be really fun too. Travel can and should be fun and enjoyable, and include tactical and counter-tactical elements as well, which is to say allow battle and safety as well.


I didn't know you wrote bad fanfiction as well as bad suggestions.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-05-09 22:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Tchulen wrote:

Whilst CCP might well have stated they're not going to have ships creating wormholes they mean the wormholes that persist, not the ones which are used by jump drives to shift ships around.


If whs can be created through the jump mechanism, it should appear on the overview for all other ships in proximity to jump through as well.

CCP has already stated that whs are by nature random in their destination AND that they are by nature incapable of being controlled in their connection to a specific destination. WHs are unknown forces of nature leading oftentimes to unknown places.

It seems clear that if jump drives create whs, then they are quite different than the natural whs of New Eden.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#33 - 2012-05-10 01:37:23 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Kusum Fawn wrote:
I am now intrigued by this idea of outer system safes, Stranded capitol ships, and six day warps.

...

would make it fun. six day warps.... bet you all would respect your industrial wings more. stage caps and supers in realistic locations, and it would stop PL in their tracks.


You know, you have a great point of considering the use of the warp drive outside the system. If a capital ship gets stuck between systems because it doesn't have fuel to power its jump drive for the 6 minute journey across 13 ly, then it could use its warp drive to the nearest system which would be 25.1 hours per 1 ly. The warp drive would continuously pull capacitor so that the entire amount of capacitor for the distance was not required all at once at the beginning. The warp speed could be lowered to make the ship cap stable and not require rests to regen cap. The ship simply aligns the direction that it wishes to warp and then engages warp in continuous mode. When it gets to the place it wishes to stop, then it exits warp by deactivating the continuous warp icon. A specific distance can be entered into the continuous mode warp to exit warp automatically at a certain location/system. This could be extended to all subcap ships too and I am sure they would all LOVE it! For capital ships carrying enough fuel, they should be able to jump 13 ly in about 6 minutes, including align time.


But then Fuel would be pointless.
Why use fuel when you can use your unlimited capacitor?

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#34 - 2012-05-10 01:50:11 UTC
Vastly cumbersome and unintuitive solution to ill-defined problem?

Nah.
Katsumi Shimazu
Star F-ckers INC.
#35 - 2012-05-10 09:09:06 UTC
So the only real issue is that you can get hotdropped, and you think thats unfair?

I think the cyno mechanic is fine. Stupid cap pilots get hotdropped and killed, the good ones dont. Darwins work is done....
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#36 - 2012-05-11 06:21:34 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:

Does a wh appear on the overview? No.


You obviously didn't read or understand what I wrote. A jump drive opens a localised WH around the ship in question. It isn't a naturally occurring WH as the ones that appear on the overview but that doesn't stop it being a rip in the fabric of spacetime. It is a WH.

Andy Landen wrote:

CCP has already stated that whs are by nature random in their destination AND that they are by nature incapable of being controlled in their connection to a specific destination. WHs are unknown forces of nature leading oftentimes to unknown places.


Yes, naturally occuring WH's do this. Artificially created WHs used by jump drives don't. This is because artificially created WHs are not the same thing as naturally occuring wormholes.

Andy Landen wrote:

It seems clear that whs are not used by jump drives despite the written lore.


So you're admitting that the lore states that jump drives use wormholes. That, my friend, is because jump drives use wormholes.
Masterofone
#37 - 2012-05-11 21:16:27 UTC
First let me apologize for the length of this reply, I tend to over think and over explain things.

I think what you are trying to do is change Jump Drives into some sort of super FTL drive that still travels in the same physical space.

Oxford Dictionary of Science Fiction:


So by these definitions,
  • Jump Drive = Instant travel between two points which would only be detectable on arrival or generation of the destination portal (cyno field in EVE).
  • Hyper Drive = Faster than light travel using a dimensional space other than our own, depending on which lore you follow most likely not detectable until entering normal space.
  • Warp Drive = Faster than light travel using some method to warp space (think warp field of Star Trek) in which the ship can still interact with objects in normal space and be detected with the correct equipment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive_(Star_Trek)


The problem in EVE is single speed warp drive. They vary by ship, as in a ship with a max warp of 3 always does 3 except when accelerating and decelerating. If you wanted to use warp drive to cover 10 ly distances it would take a very long time. (I tried to find EVE definition how fast warps are but didn’t have any luck and I’m not home to log in and do rough calculations). Figure most of the solar systems are under 100 au. 1 au=approx 150 million kilometers and a light year is around 9.5 trillion kilometers. So 1 ly = 63,241 au. Now take any cap or supercap in the game, warp it 100 au and multiply that time by 632 and that’s how long the current tech would take to go 1 ly. (100 au @ 30 seconds = 1 ly @ 5.25 hours). If you allowed the current tech to go any faster you would have ships traveling from one side of a solar system to another instantly.

A standard freighter has a warp of 0.75 I think. Some null space can be something like 20 ly to the edge of low going to Jita. It takes over a minute move a freighter 100 au. This means it now takes you over a week to make the one way trip to Jita. Actual time would be even longer unless you are there right after DT to restart your warp. And since you’re in warp, you might get unlucky and trip over a warp jammer in a system and drop out.

Implementation anything like that would require a near complete re-write of the way we travel in EVE. Currently we have sub-light, warp and jump tech. Your proposal requires replacing jump tech with some sort of super warp useable only for galactic travel not solar, none of the other forms of travel would allow for the tracking or detection you desire. Even then you would need deep space scanning arrays to detect ships traveling that fast before it passed you.

Jump drives or super gates are the only logical way to travel large distances across the EVE universe in large ships.

Also the comment
Quote:
This is also how every popular sci-fi movie/series regards inter-system space travel
in the opening post is inaccurate, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jump_drive, there are plenty of examples of instant interstellar travel.

On a side note, if you can't defend the space you are in, hot drops or not, it will soon be someone elses. Consider joining an alliance capable of defending it's space or finding a nice quiet corner some place and keep a low profile.

I am enjoying the intellectual exercise of this discussion, thank you.

Fly fast and shoot straight, find peace when you need it, war when you want it, love always and turn up the music.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-12 23:54:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Good discussion on jump mechanics. I am interested in the views expressed and in exploring possibilities within the current code limitations. Intersystem, non-instantaneous travel (not jump gates, jump bridges, or jump drives) seems like a very interesting way to really enhance Eve gameplay. Players would need to develop more complex strategies than 1) orbit gate, 2) create decloaking jetcan, 3) anchor bubble, and 4) rinse and repeat. Using your feedback, I propose a hybrid approach to capture the hyperspace travel without many of the issues noted earlier:

1) Jump drives create limited whs. So I propose:

  1. Jump drive whs appear on the overview for 30 seconds, AND that other ships be able to jump through too, up to the mass limit of a wh connecting a C6 w-space system to null sec.
  2. Black ops would also create a wh on the overview which any ship could travel through. Covert Ops cynos could be created in high sec, Concord being unable to detect them.
  3. Capital ships outlawed in high sec could jump through such whs to high sec, but they would be instantly Concorded if they were found in high sec.
  4. Titan jump bridges would also create a wh on the overview, but it would last for 2 minutes or the mass of the wh. Titans and supers cannot jump through whs, natural or man-made. They are just too large.
  5. The destination would show an exit wh on the overview which could be jumped through by any ship back to the source.
  6. No bubble or module could prevent a ship within range of any wh, natural or man-made, to jump through it.


2) Keeping track of ships traveling the space between systems would require extra servers. Jump drives would play no role in this form of travel, because they create instant wh connections. So I propose a new module is created as a medium slot module fittable to any ship, called an Hyperspace drive:

  1. The Hyperspace drive activates only when the ship is aligned to a celestial in another solar system AND it is in no bubble and pointed by no ship/array. The drive continues to cycle until the target destination is reached, even if the player logs out.
  2. If the ship runs out of capacitor (for ex. a capacitor module is offlined during travel), the ship drops out of hyperspace (option to drop out o hyperspace manually always exists).
  3. Converts ice products or other fuels like gas or moon goo into capacitor as needed to operate the drive.
  4. CPU 20 PG 1
  5. Cycle time 1 s
  6. Activation cost 10 GJ
  7. Ship travel speed in hyperspace is 140 ly/hr

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Masterofone
#39 - 2012-05-17 00:19:01 UTC
Andy,

I like the clarity you are adding with the last post and the creative way you are slipping capitols into hi sec space.

The object showing up on overview could register as a “spatial disturbance” and due to its strength you can lock on and warp to it. If you get to the wh immediately after the generating ship goes through you can follow with relative assurance you are going to end up in the same location, however the wh should deteriorate with time (that time could vary by factors like the natural whs just more exaggerated due to their forced existence) if you enter at the end or near the end of the wh life cycle it can drop you anywhere between point A and point B based on power/mass left in the WH.

I don’t know that it would require more servers, you won’t be fighting or doing a whole lot of anything during your trip, and really what the servers will be tracking is a database entry something like:
A = Ship; O = Originating location; D = Destination; J = Distance between O and D; Y = Speed traveled; T1 = Start time; T2 = Arrival time; F = Fuel on the ship, Ar = Rate of fuel consumption (for calculation I’ll use amount over distance), x = will you make it

Trip = Record T1, calculate T2 so the server knows when you drop you out if you make it. (If F/Ar > J Then you get there ELSE J-(F/Ar) = distance from O where you drop out)

You cannot drop out of Hyperspace anywhere except your destination except by running out of fuel. I don’t like the instant death part, how about finding yourself in the space between systems and the only way back is a rescue mission or self destruct? (possibly introduce some ship damage from the forced exit of hyperspace.) The pilot has a choice of launching a distress beacon that will travel to the nearest system (involving some real time delay since the beacon can’t use hyperspace) and deliver a message OR self destruct and hope their data makes it back to the clone network in tact (due to being so far off grid, perhaps a chance for skill point loss or diminished mental capacity for a period of time).

Introduce Deep Space Rescue. Special ships (T2 version of a large industrial like Orca or Rorqual, maybe even a big brother of the Noctus?) with massive electronics packages (computers, scanners probes, mystery tech) and the ability to haul to and refuel stranded ships. The distress beacon would record it’s flight data and provide a general location for the stranded ship, which is drifting since it’s off the navigational grid.

The specialized ship is the only one capable of dropping out of hyperdrive at will along the route, it’s massive computer systems and electronics package making it able to calculate it’s exact location and process the information for a trip back into hyperspace without the assistance of a local communications network. Likewise the same computer system will allow the rescue ship to fleet the stranded ship back into hyperspace.

Might I suggest instead of ice products utilizing either one of the lower moon goo or a mineral found while mining planet rings? The CPU and Grid requirements for the module would be high, and specialization would be needed. The ships would have bonuses to that module, like the covert ops and cloak setup.

As for the travel speed, it’s a trivial point, but as far as I can find the known map area of EVE is only around 110 light years across.

Guess I should end the wall of text for now.

Fly fast and shoot straight, find peace when you need it, war when you want it, love always and turn up the music.
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2012-05-19 02:25:28 UTC
OP, your post is bad, and you should feel bad.

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]