These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

New frigate stats on SiSi listed here. Tiercide is upon us, discuss!
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
HyperZerg
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-05-11 01:03:04 UTC
I like that CCP starts breaking with the race-specific boni like optimal instead of damage for caldari.

What Idon't like is that amarr got no more Mining-Frigate. Every race should got one. I remember myself sitting in a navitas for a day or two only to switch for missions again.

Don't nerf the Navitas ! go 20 or so lying around for 2 cynos :P
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-05-11 01:13:30 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
raptor,eagle,naga etc.


compared to minmatar : all their ships can use projectiles no matter what,and they have enough turret slots and bonuses to worth flying.

compared to gallente : all gallente ships have turret slots no matter what,except for eris and lachesis,but they also have enough turret slots.

compared to amarr : all t1 amarr ships will have only turret slots.some t2 ships are specialized on missiles like vengeance,malediction,sacrilege,damnation.<<----this doesnt really fair either.

please ccp,restore balance,human kind will be greatefull for your workLol

1/10, cannot tell if serious

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-11 02:12:44 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
After just the listed changes, Rifter would still be king but Amarr would have a secondary combat frig.


What bothers me about this is, how can this be considered "balanced" even by the furthest stretch of the imagination? When one ship is quite obviously better than another, and this is after the supposed rebalance?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want all races to have identical ships. But this is hardly balanced, the way it is now on SiSi. Especially the Gallente active rep bonus, we basically get pigeonholed into a single tank type or we have to sacrifice the bonus. And it's not like this failure is new - Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.


Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-05-11 04:12:17 UTC
I liked the Tormentor as a ninja cargo ship. Sad
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-05-11 06:35:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
After just the listed changes, Rifter would still be king but Amarr would have a secondary combat frig.


What bothers me about this is, how can this be considered "balanced" even by the furthest stretch of the imagination? When one ship is quite obviously better than another, and this is after the supposed rebalance?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want all races to have identical ships. But this is hardly balanced, the way it is now on SiSi. Especially the Gallente active rep bonus, we basically get pigeonholed into a single tank type or we have to sacrifice the bonus. And it's not like this failure is new - Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.




myrm is incredible. also, active armor reps on frigs are very good. it's not like they get ~primaried~ and repped by logi in that same way. there are ships you can complain about it on, but tbh the incursus was already a ship that regularly saw a small armor repairer on its lowrack. if they had done this to a bigger ship then i would agree. but for a frigate, don't pretend that the same drawbacks apply as do when talking about active tank on BC or BS hulls. active tanks are very efficient if they rep even comparable amounts to the quantity of dps incoming, and frigs 1v1 very frequently and often take fire from drones and not much else. they do not often receive reps. these factors make reps stack up more favorably against buffers on frigates, and to boot they don't slow you down or ruin your sig. the end.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2012-05-11 06:51:50 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
I liked the Tormentor as a ninja cargo ship. Sad

you can fit 1k+ m3 on a magnate, tormentor even sucked as a cargo ship
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-05-11 07:44:38 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Luscius Uta
#28 - 2012-05-11 11:24:59 UTC
Recoil IV wrote:
i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
raptor,eagle,naga etc.





For ****'s sake, have you never heard of a Drake? Does every ******* Caldari boat needs to have missile bonuses??

Workarounds are not bugfixes.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#29 - 2012-05-11 12:36:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Recoil IV wrote:
i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,

ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)


The Ferox is a hybrid boat. If you want missile bonuses, fly a Drake.

Regarding the Rokh, when you say 4 turret slots, you mean, 4 missile launcher slots?

It has 8 turret slots. Please don't tell me they are going to reduce it to four? Its the only decent battleship Caldari actually have...

But the Rokh doesn't need a damage bonus. If there is one ship I hope CCP leave alone, its the Rokh, the range bonus is actually very useful in both snipe and blaster fit, given how slow Caldari are. If you want a missile battleship, you have 3 choices, Raven, CNR, or the Scorpion Navy Issue - which has the 5% shield bonus and makes it a fleet ship like the Rokh. So... lets not turn the Rokh into a missile boat.

And lets not talk about how awful Torpedos hit Battlecruisers. It's a bit of a joke - cruisers hit for more damage. They don't even do full damage against battleships.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-05-11 12:41:44 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious


Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#31 - 2012-05-11 13:03:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonaura
Given the new DPS for Drones modules... that might change, that and the fact the Drake is due a nerf bat any day now...

I agree though, Gallente still need a bit more love.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Zoidberg Gahiji
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-11 13:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoidberg Gahiji
Tobiaz wrote:
Incursus:
10% Small Hybrid Turret Falloff
5% Small Hybrid Turret Damage
10% Armor Repairer Effectiveness



I'm sorry CCP but this is just crap. The falloff bonus is what makes the Incursus good and we can clearly see how awesome active tank bonuses are on the Brutix and Hyperion. Namely, except for T3 boosted 1vsMany lolfights, for nothing. And don't even get me started on how ******* easy it is to alpha a frigate...

If you want an active tanking frig take the Tristan. It's two *I-don't-need-cap-to-shoot-and-shoot-out-to-the-edge-of-scram-range-too* missile slots are far more useful for that role as well.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#33 - 2012-05-11 15:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
I understand that Ytterbium has removed the 10% optimal from the Merlin because dimwitted feedback has led him to believe people want the Merlin as a heavy brawler. WRONG!

The fact the Merlin is used as one, is because the Caldari currently don't HAVE a true brawler. And taking away the rather unique T1sniper capability of the Merlin to turn it into just another brawler is NOT how Tiercide will succeed. People will min-max and only the best brawler will be actually popular (OK,this might be the Merlin at this point, but that simply screws over the the other races, particularly the Gallente).

Much better to keep the Merlin as a sniper frigate (a rather unique role in which it has very little competition) that has the option to be a decent brawler if necessary. Instead make the Kestrel Caldari's rocket-based brawler of choice by giving it more EHP, grid cpu and a fourth med slot (maybe even dropping a low-slot for aa fifth).

The rockets and med-slots will make sure the Kestrel is different enough in it's role as a brawler that it won't have to min-max compete with other turret-based for popularity, and THAT is how Tiercide will succeed.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-05-11 16:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jiji Hamin
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious


Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?


ships that are used more are clearly better and it has nothing to do with the fact that the many nullsec uses many of this ships as doctrine ships/they are extremely generic. just because something is "gold standard" or "vanilla" doesn't make it bad. Stop ruining ship diversity. active armor platforms should be fixed, not removed. I am sick and tired of people saying "X ship doesn't do what i want it to do so i think it is bad." The myrm is an awesome ship. the gallente have plenty of ships worthy of fleet fights. example: the lachesis and the arazu are extraordinarily useful ships that are needed almost all the time yet noobs never talk about them when trash-talking gallente. Gallente may need more ships to be viable as generic fleet gunboats, but ruining a ship that is loved by many, let's say the myrm is stupid. whether it's ~used a lot~ should not be the metric. if anything, remove the active tank bonus from the brutix instead.

also, the statement that "the incursus was great because of a falloff bonus" is entirely valid but levelling the same criticism against it as we level against BCs and BSes with active tnak bonuses is just bullshit because the comparison is just not there. frigates exist in a magical land before time where the considerations of fleet fights don't apply in the same way. active tanks have always been extremely viable on frigates, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a scrub.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2012-05-11 16:37:44 UTC
Zoidberg Gahiji wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Incursus:
10% Small Hybrid Turret Falloff
5% Small Hybrid Turret Damage
10% Armor Repairer Effectiveness



I'm sorry CCP but this is just crap. The falloff bonus is what makes the Incursus good and we can clearly see how awesome active tank bonuses are on the Brutix and Hyperion. Namely, except for T3 boosted 1vsMany lolfights, for nothing. And don't even get me started on how ******* easy it is to alpha a frigate...

If you want an active tanking frig take the Tristan. It's two *I-don't-need-cap-to-shoot-and-shoot-out-to-the-edge-of-scram-range-too* missile slots are far more useful for that role as well.


You should test it, that fall off bonus is easily replaced by a tracking enhancer, look two new low slots.

Seriously anything the Incursus can do now it will do better in the new version from shield gank to active tank. It looks like a great entry level mission runner and PVP ship.

Think it will be my go to ship for FW minor plexes.
Zoidberg Gahiji
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-05-11 17:46:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoidberg Gahiji
If you want an active tank bonus put it on the Tristan and don't neuter the Incursus.

Range is what it let's stand out and what makes it useful, not tanking capabilities. If you want the latter grab a Tristan, which is already a good active tanker.


I'm a big fan of active tanks on frigates myself, but that is not what the Incursus excels at. Blaster frigates get kited within scram range and the falloff bonus helps to offset it. Even more so it let's the Incursus kite within that range itself. An active tank bonus doesn't even come close in versatility to this, especially when the new slot layout will make it a good active tanker even without the rep bonus.

Gank at close range is the strong point of the Incursus. Not tanking. And the rep bonus will offset that. I'm sorry but that additional TEs can be fitted is bollocks too when I could have EVEN MORE range with the falloff bonus. Or even fit an EANM or ANP to boost my local tank all the while still having a range advantage. Or god forbid fit a MFS.



Seriously, what do you expect from a bonused frigate level tank that's worth the loss of range and versatility?

In a 1vs1 situation against another frigate you benefit far more from a quick gank than a dragged out slugfest with a laughable bonused frigate tank. Against a cruiser or bigger you don't even need a bonused tank once you're close and if you're not close even the rep bonus won't save you.

Outside of 1on1s the rep bonus will do frak for you.



Case in point how stupid this bonus is are the Brutix and Hyperion. The Brutix tanks laughably bad while doing pathetic damage at even more pathetic ranges when active armor tank fit. That's why everyone shield fits it or goes straight to the Myrmidon. And the Hyperion with an active armor tank is only useful because it can tank about 3.000 DPS with a T3 booster. Do you think the Incursus will tank 3k DPS? No it won't.



Active tanks are fun and useful but the Incursus is a gank boat. Not a tanker.

Give that 10% rep bonus to the Tristan. It's almost perfectly suited for that role with 2/3 of its weapons being capless and already having a good slot layout for tanking which can be improved upon. But a tank bonus on the Incursus is nuts.
Monger Man
D.S.A.
#37 - 2012-05-11 19:37:07 UTC
Zoidberg Gahiji wrote:
If you want an active tank bonus put it on the Tristan and don't neuter the Incursus.

Range is what it let's stand out and what makes it useful, not tanking capabilities. If you want the latter grab a Tristan, which is already a good active tanker.


I'm a big fan of active tanks on frigates myself, but that is not what the Incursus excels at. Blaster frigates get kited within scram range and the falloff bonus helps to offset it. Even more so it let's the Incursus kite within that range itself. An active tank bonus doesn't even come close in versatility to this, especially when the new slot layout will make it a good active tanker even without the rep bonus.

Gank at close range is the strong point of the Incursus. Not tanking. And the rep bonus will offset that. I'm sorry but that additional TEs can be fitted is bollocks too when I could have EVEN MORE range with the falloff bonus. Or even fit an EANM or ANP to boost my local tank all the while still having a range advantage. Or god forbid fit a MFS.



Seriously, what do you expect from a bonused frigate level tank that's worth the loss of range and versatility?

In a 1vs1 situation against another frigate you benefit far more from a quick gank than a dragged out slugfest with a laughable bonused frigate tank. Against a cruiser or bigger you don't even need a bonused tank once you're close and if you're not close even the rep bonus won't save you.

Outside of 1on1s the rep bonus will do frak for you.



Case in point how stupid this bonus is are the Brutix and Hyperion. The Brutix tanks laughably bad while doing pathetic damage at even more pathetic ranges when active armor tank fit. That's why everyone shield fits it or goes straight to the Myrmidon. And the Hyperion with an active armor tank is only useful because it can tank about 3.000 DPS with a T3 booster. Do you think the Incursus will tank 3k DPS? No it won't.



Active tanks are fun and useful but the Incursus is a gank boat. Not a tanker.

Give that 10% rep bonus to the Tristan. It's almost perfectly suited for that role with 2/3 of its weapons being capless and already having a good slot layout for tanking which can be improved upon. But a tank bonus on the Incursus is nuts.



I know you love you're incurses, and my first reaction to this change was the same as you. But I really wouldn't be surprised
if the atron filled the role the incurses used to, and by doing that adding another frigate to use. And I wouldn't be so fast about
stating the tristan makes a better active tank because half its weapons are capless. I'm getting the feeling the tristan is going to drop the rockets, and probably add more drones.

I'm speculating here I know.

I tried the incurses a bit last night. Had a dual rep setup and was tanking a rocket fly catcher like a beast. I only had access to 200 shot boosters and that setup really needed 400 navies to work. But during the time I had cap that fly catcher couldn't drop me. With 400's I might have been able to take it down.

Now I'm not disagreeing that the rep bonus may not work for frigs, I generally dislike rep bonuses on that small a ship. But the 10% per level seems to actually work out fairly well.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#38 - 2012-05-11 19:55:37 UTC
If you must give the Tormentor the 10% Cap use bonus, perhaps it would be more sensible to give it a ROF bonus instead of the damage bonus. It would give the Tormentor a little extra omf on damage over the damage bonus, visually it would make it more interesting and different from the other ships, and make sense that it would need a cap use bonus even though it has fewer guns.

I guess it just seems odd that a ship with fewer lasers would need the cap use bonus, but I could see one that despite the few number of guns had a much higher ROF.

Optionally, it would probably be better off with a simple Cap Recharge bonus. This would open up many variations in fitting (including neuts), active tank, any number of things.

Currently it still seems a little outclassed by the other frigates, and if I understand the goal correctly it should be competitive while being somewhat unique and fill a different role in a competitive way.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Copine Callmeknau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-05-11 20:19:59 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious


Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?

I love how you conveniently only post 3 races in your examples, making it appear gallente are the odd one out.

I'm not seeing too many prophecy's and raven's in PvP either buddy ^^

There should be a rather awesome pic here
Jiji Hamin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-05-11 21:02:08 UTC
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Copine Callmeknau wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrmidon and Hyperion had this bonus for a long while now, and neither ship sees much use.

1/10 cannot tell if serious


Let me say it another way, in form of a question:

What do you see more often: Drake, Hurricane or Myrmidon? Note, on EVE Killboards Drake is #1, Hurricane is #2 and Myrmidon does not appear on the list of top 20 at all.

What do you see more often: Maelstrom, Abaddon or Hyperion? Note, on EVE Killboards Maelstrom is #12, Abaddon is #6 and Hyperion does not appear on the list of top 20 at all (neither does Dominix or Megathron, for that matter).

If you want to look at frigate hulls, Rifter is #7, Merlin #16. Incursus, surprise surprise, is not on the list.

If these ships are so great, wouldn't at least ONE of them appear on the top 20? As it is, there's not a single solitary Gallente hull in the top 20 list right now. Not a single one. And that's what we call "balance"?

I love how you conveniently only post 3 races in your examples, making it appear gallente are the odd one out.

I'm not seeing too many prophecy's and raven's in PvP either buddy ^^


right and we all know how the nyx, moros, thanny and erebus are terrible pvp caps or how the lachesis and arazu are never necessary for anything, etc.
Previous page123Next page