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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

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Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-05-09 21:01:31 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
I believe the slow buf from CCP is related to a few very distinct issue, First the range of variance in damage from the most dangerous drone users to the weakest is significantly larger than the most dangerous gun user, this means the module will have a a disproportionate effect on the applied DPS of the "big" users vs the supplemental users.

Second as far as I know the big drone users ships are considered solid choices, the DOMI, Ishtar and Gila (vexor and arbitor varients may fall here as well). This where s real problem lies if you buff a slightly unpowered ship to much you get FOTM if you overbuff a already balanced ship it becomes the most OP thing ever, the boards fill with tears.

The last issue is a caariers, CCP just nerfed super caps to get them out of the subcap murdering business, last thing we all need is more carriers are overpowered nonsence, like someone above said 2200+ DPS Thantos may be a little over the top for pvp and PVE

-1
Cap Tyrian
Guiding Hand Social Club
#142 - 2012-05-09 21:26:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Cap Tyrian
@CCP SoniClover
They currently only give Gallente BC/BS a Max dps fitting variation while interfering with Gallente ship concept.

What i would like to see at least considered,

ArrowMake them active cap intensive High-slot Modules that require either a turret or Missile hard point to fit,
and bless them with a rely nice futuristic radar dish that starts spinning and emitting some nice wave effects when active.

What also can be considered.
If the damage bonus amount and some ship setups seem OP you can consider stack them in three sizes that only boost up to a certain drone Bandwidth(not drone size), therefor consuming more Capacitor.
And possibly balancing these Modules with PG usage.
As drones have no fitting requirement i find it dangerousness to just throw a damage mod in there. And with three sizes you can scale your radar dish module to look awesome on all ship sizes.

Why?
It seems more balanced and gives a much greater fitting variation to much more ships and hinders some crazy high dps setups.
And although it seems more work and balancing to be done i can assure you it is A: worth it, and B: much much easier to balance


Edit: And their name is a bit confusing.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#143 - 2012-05-09 21:56:32 UTC
Um 13-15 sentry drones/ heavy Drones, not 10. So the base damage with one tech II sentry drone rig gets closer to 1k. Set the modifier at 23% like some above were asking for ... then 6 months later add a faction version doing + 28%. Stuff 2-3 (not sure of stack with sentry rigs) of these on and the ship and boom we have 1500+ DPS (sorry about the 2200 number I took it from a post higher up the thread without verifying).

It is not about the standard ship, it is what happens at the extremes and can we have something that suddely disbalances. Yeah anything but the occasional Drone control units are now considered taboo, but when the answer is 1500 DPS with solid range, good tracking that can be switched out for lower but very effective anti -frig or anti cruiser DPS (with 3 extrins at 23% we more than a 50% damage buff) , with a massive tank (even after gimping for the Drone pimping), for the price of a slightly pimped faction BS, you know someone is going to do it. And then more people are going to do it.

You also dismissed my point without addressing the stronger argument in point 2 that the Domi, Gila are considered good and the Ishtar is considered at least adequate in PVE/solo small group PVP and we are in effect buffing all of them. Don't forget it does not take much to go from slightly unerpowered to to FOTM, look how small the buff were to angel ships insolation a while ago they went from basic unflown to the king of the hill.

I am not saying the modules values are set properly for the damage bonuses they may be to low at 12%, we need to see what happens at the extremes as well as the net effect of difficult to fit and minor bump to DPS the Curse gets over a BCS for its two missles, the beauty of Eve is also its biggest problem, flexibility. The issues often arise when someone uses a new rules, module, ship or ammo in an unexpected way. I am pretty sure that at least a few of the people screaming for "moar buffs" have already figured it out and are prepping to abuse it until it is nerfed.
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#144 - 2012-05-09 22:09:45 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Um 13-15 sentry drones/ heavy Drones, not 10. So the base damage with one tech II sentry drone rig gets closer to 1k. Set the modifier at 23% like some above were asking for ... then 6 months later add a faction version doing + 28%. Stuff 2-3 (not sure of stack with sentry rigs) of these on and the ship and boom we have 1500+ DPS (sorry about the 2200 number I took it from a post higher up the thread without verifying).

It is not about the standard ship, it is what happens at the extremes and can we have something that suddely disbalances. Yeah anything but the occasional Drone control units are now considered taboo, but when the answer is 1500 DPS with solid range, good tracking that can be switched out for lower but very effective anti -frig or anti cruiser DPS (with 3 extrins at 23% we more than a 50% damage buff) , with a massive tank (even after gimping for the Drone pimping), for the price of a slightly pimped faction BS, you know someone is going to do it. And then more people are going to do it.

You also dismissed my point without addressing the stronger argument in point 2 that the Domi, Gila are considered good and the Ishtar is considered at least adequate in PVE/solo small group PVP and we are in effect buffing all of them. Don't forget it does not take much to go from slightly unerpowered to to FOTM, look how small the buff were to angel ships insolation a while ago they went from basic unflown to the king of the hill.

I am not saying the modules values are set properly for the damage bonuses they may be to low at 12%, we need to see what happens at the extremes as well as the net effect of difficult to fit and minor bump to DPS the Curse gets over a BCS for its two missles, the beauty of Eve is also its biggest problem, flexibility. The issues often arise when someone uses a new rules, module, ship or ammo in an unexpected way. I am pretty sure that at least a few of the people screaming for "moar buffs" have already figured it out and are prepping to abuse it until it is nerfed.


Slightly underpowered? Drone dps is the lowest of the damage types by a blatant margin. On top of that, you yourself misstated 2200 for 1500. You didn't even bring up what happens if you fit a carrier like that. If you stuck 4 drone control units on a carrier with 2 drone damage mods, you SHOULD have 1500 dps with the shortest range/highest damage sentry available. The investments required gimp the tank, neuts, and remote repair possibilities of the carrier in question. Supers were/are overpowered because they gave/give too much overall stats to one specific player regardless of their cost. A carrier does not possess these specifics.

You are afraid of a domi putting on 3 drone damage mods, 3 mag stabs, a full rack of short range blasters, and ogres/gardes? You do know the CPU required to fit that? You actually can't fit a proper tank. On top of that, you are about as effective as a blaster mega. If you aren't aware, blaster megas are terrible.

Your arguments are laden with fear, inaccurate numbers, gross generalizations, and can be described as an absurdity.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2012-05-09 22:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tankn00blicus
Airto TLA wrote:
Um 13-15 sentry drones/ heavy Drones, not 10. So the base damage with one tech II sentry drone rig gets closer to 1k. Set the modifier at 23% like some above were asking for ... then 6 months later add a faction version doing + 28%. Stuff 2-3 (not sure of stack with sentry rigs) of these on and the ship and boom we have 1500+ DPS (sorry about the 2200 number I took it from a post higher up the thread without verifying).

It is not about the standard ship, it is what happens at the extremes and can we have something that suddely disbalances. Yeah anything but the occasional Drone control units are now considered taboo, but when the answer is 1500 DPS with solid range, good tracking that can be switched out for lower but very effective anti -frig or anti cruiser DPS (with 3 extrins at 23% we more than a 50% damage buff) , with a massive tank (even after gimping for the Drone pimping), for the price of a slightly pimped faction BS, you know someone is going to do it. And then more people are going to do it.

You also dismissed my point without addressing the stronger argument in point 2 that the Domi, Gila are considered good and the Ishtar is considered at least adequate in PVE/solo small group PVP and we are in effect buffing all of them. Don't forget it does not take much to go from slightly unerpowered to to FOTM, look how small the buff were to angel ships insolation a while ago they went from basic unflown to the king of the hill.

I am not saying the modules values are set properly for the damage bonuses they may be to low at 12%, we need to see what happens at the extremes as well as the net effect of difficult to fit and minor bump to DPS the Curse gets over a BCS for its two missles, the beauty of Eve is also its biggest problem, flexibility. The issues often arise when someone uses a new rules, module, ship or ammo in an unexpected way. I am pretty sure that at least a few of the people screaming for "moar buffs" have already figured it out and are prepping to abuse it until it is nerfed.
-1

LaserzPewPew wrote:
If you aren't aware, blaster megas are terrible.
I remember when blaster boats used to be dreaded. Of course, when they nerfed MWD such that scrams shut it down, it made blasters nonviable; but, that nerf was still badly needed in many ways because you had the whole "NANO ALL THE THINGS" trend going on up until then.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#146 - 2012-05-10 00:40:02 UTC
If people/CCP fear this damage mod( and its requested high slot) so much just give the drone boats a role bonus to fit DCU's
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#147 - 2012-05-10 01:36:37 UTC


LaserzPewPew wrote:
If you aren't aware, blaster megas are terrible.
I remember when blaster boats used to be dreaded. Of course, when they nerfed MWD such that scrams shut it down, it made blasters nonviable; but, that nerf was still badly needed in many ways because you had the whole "NANO ALL THE THINGS" trend going on up until then.[/quote]

Hence why they are terrible.
Perihelion Olenard
#148 - 2012-05-10 10:49:43 UTC
Don't forget about the web nerf and boost to other turrets with great range on top of it.
Bent Barrel
#149 - 2012-05-10 14:57:05 UTC
my ishkur screams mid slot please .... also 35CPU if possible and a bit more damage
Thomas Gallant
Quafe Company Courier Shipping
#150 - 2012-05-11 00:08:18 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
my ishkur screams mid slot please .... also 35CPU if possible and a bit more damage


Eh, my domi has most of it's mid slots filled with cap rechargers, as well as his rigs, dual large armor reps are costly
bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2012-05-11 07:09:51 UTC
The 1500 dps Carrier whine is truly laughable.

If a Carrier wants to lose 3 of its low slots and all of its high slots to be able to do a staggering 1500 dps at a whopping 30km let it. The only possible application is going to be farming sanctums. And even at that Sentries aren't actually very good without a couple of omni's thrown on so now its lost some low slots as well.

None of the sub-cap drone boats would be made even remotely OP with a full 22% damage mod.

The Domi/Ishtar/Vexor/Ishkur would all have to make sacrifices to fit them due to low slot competition and certainly in the case of the Ishtar massive CPU issues. Domi's are only viable in PvP as it is because of the utility their high slots provide with reps and neuts. A realistic fit would run with 2 EDA's because 4 lows just ins't enough for a viable tank so even at 22% that would only give it 650 odd dps.

As for making them some lol high slot option losing half of your utility ( the thing that makes you good) just to get slightly better than teir 2 BC dps doesn't make sense to anyone with a functioning brain.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-05-11 11:50:34 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:
[Dominix, Mother Drone]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II

Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Drone Speed Augmentor II
Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x10
Hobgoblin II x10


That would be awesome...
You know that wouldn't work unless DCUs gave +25 drone bandwidth each or something, right?
Bent Barrel
#153 - 2012-05-11 12:45:47 UTC
Tankn00blicus wrote:
Tenga Halaris wrote:
[Dominix, Mother Drone]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II

Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Drone Speed Augmentor II
Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x10
Hobgoblin II x10


That would be awesome...
You know that wouldn't work unless DCUs gave +25 drone bandwidth each or something, right?


You know that that's just the dronebay config right ? 2 waves of Ogres and 2 waves of Hammers ...
Bent Barrel
#154 - 2012-05-11 12:46:22 UTC
Thomas Gallant wrote:
Bent Barrel wrote:
my ishkur screams mid slot please .... also 35CPU if possible and a bit more damage


Eh, my domi has most of it's mid slots filled with cap rechargers, as well as his rigs, dual large armor reps are costly


well I need my scan probe launcher in my only utility high slot :-))) but for PvP it would work.
Strata Maslav
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#155 - 2012-05-11 14:04:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
In addition to the proposed bonus how about increasing the ships dronebay/bandwidth?
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#156 - 2012-05-11 20:13:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Soon Shin
The Myrmidon should get a 100 mb bandwidth, having only 75mb makes is a joke. Its dps is barely much better than a vexor.

Morons completely forget that Drones are destroyable. If DPS of drones is the problem, then shoot the drones.

Gameplay should not be balanced based on the lowest possible ******** dumbass.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#157 - 2012-05-11 21:13:19 UTC
Soon Shin wrote:
The Myrmidon should get a 100 mb bandwidth, having only 75mb makes is a joke. Its dps is barely much better than a vexor.

Morons completely forget that Drones are destroyable. If DPS of drones is the problem, then shoot the drones.

Gameplay should not be balanced based on the lowest possible ******** dumbass.


We all love you too! :D
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-05-11 21:33:21 UTC
Bent Barrel wrote:
You know that that's just the dronebay config right ? 2 waves of Ogres and 2 waves of Hammers ...
2 waves of Ogres and 2 waves of Hobgoblins, actually. But if he wasn't planning on being able to use all 10 Ogres at once then why even bother with 5 DCU's? Being able to use 10 lights at once isn't a good enough reason to use 5 high slots on those.
Frothgar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-05-11 21:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Frothgar
As long as the drone boats fitting guns retain comperable damage numbers to gun boats fielding drones, I'm not sure what the problem would be in making the drone damage mods comperable.

Drone boats have utility in the ability to field drones of varying sizes to suit the target being fought, the drawback of this is the drones can be killed.

Can someone compare what a Dominix with ions looks like fidling 3 damage mods, vs an Armageddon with DHPs (Conflag) fielding a flight of Ogres with 3 heatsinks?

If the Geddon with the heatsinks is doing 1k and the domi only does 800, the buff the drone damage.

If the dominix suddenly starts cranking out vindicator DPS, then CCP has the right idea to go slowly.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#160 - 2012-05-11 21:53:35 UTC
It is not even remotely close to that simple. If the droneboat pilot is competent he will be pulling in drones that take damage. It's pretty damn hard to kill drones in that situation. The ability to drop smaller-sized drones on ships that would otherwise avoid your primary damage is an incredible boost.

Also, droneships don't lose their primary damage when jammed. They can't be tracking-disrupted (after Inferno, drones will be the only weapon system effectively immune to TDs).

...And droneships still have guns. Even bonused guns in most cases. The Domi already dumps out good DPS with blasters.