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No more learning implants!
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flapie 2
Malevelon Roe Industries
Convocation of Empyreans
#241 - 2012-05-10 07:59:19 UTC  |  Edited by: flapie 2
Gogela wrote:
OP... there are players that have had +5s since 2003. If anything we will see stronger implants so newer players can catch up. What's done is done. You're going in the opposite direction of what must be done, and what CCP is doing already. gl w/ that


Ow really, give me 1 name i dare you 1 name of a person that had +5 implants since 2003.
You wont be able to do so, and you need need to figure out why cause i ain't gonna tell you why.
But regardless of the fact if you actually find out why no player had +5s since 2003, this remark is totally useless and very untrue.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#242 - 2012-05-10 15:01:46 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:


Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way.

You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous.

HTFU Nullbear.Twisted



[A big wall of text]

The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get..


And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#243 - 2012-05-10 15:23:12 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:


Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way.

You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous.

HTFU Nullbear.Twisted



[A big wall of text]

The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get..


And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended.


In losing those implants you're losing training over time, not just isk
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#244 - 2012-05-10 15:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Joe Risalo wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:


Yes and you CHOOSE that option in order to GAIN the benefits of null sec. Something not everyone HAS to do. Its a risk vs reward TRADEOFF. Some make it ONE way and others make it the OTHER way.

You want the rewards of null sec? They come with reduced training time OR your going to give away some nice pod mails now. Your whine is ridiculous.

HTFU Nullbear.Twisted



[A big wall of text]

The only thing players should have to risk in relation to risk vs reward is isk. The more isk you risk, the more reward you get..


And when you wear those +5 implants in Nullsec, what are you risking besides isk? Its the same if you take your 2 billion isk faction fit Battleship to Nullsec. If you wear +5 implants in Nullsec then you are risking more isk for a higher reward. Working as intended.


In losing those implants you're losing training over time, not just isk


Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#245 - 2012-05-10 16:06:24 UTC
I bet if you would have played the game more instead of watching your skill bar blinking, you would loose less pods in the end.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#246 - 2012-05-10 17:52:06 UTC
Zyress wrote:


Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford.


Ya kinda just stated my point....

Cash gets you a plex, plex gets you isk, isk gets you attribute implants, attribute implants give you more SP per year.

hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.

Now, as far as evaluating your risks. Most players (expecially noobs) would place high value on attribute implants. So, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, OR don't fly where you're taking heavy risks on losing what you can't afford to lose.

When it comes to ships and modules, you can lose everything including your isk and all you would need to do is go grind out some isk for a couple of weeks and be back on your feet.

Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.

There should be no method to allow purchasing of SP, yet this is what attribute implants are.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with this idea. It's a benefit to EVERYONE in Eve.

The only valid agrument that has been made is that they're a risk vs reward factor.
I agree, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be removed.

Instead, remove them and do as I have posted from another player's suggestion and allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots.

This does several things for Eve. Equal SP accumulation for all players, keeps risks up by allowing hardwires to be put in those slots, allows COMBAT to be modified instead of SP, also has the benefit of giving players more hardwire implant versatility, and helps out the hardwire implant market which is generally only effective for the most directed implants such as damage buffs and mining buffs.
Now, if players could mix and match, you might get players like me in a stealth bomber with an implant in slot 1 to boost CPU allowing me to get a better fit, and buff to torp damage in slot 6.

Hardwire implants are something most players are much more willing to risk because they actually feel like perks, so when you lose them, you don't feel like your effectiveness has been hendered.

Attribute implants are the exact opposite in that players feel they're a priority and without them your SP per year is hendered.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#247 - 2012-05-10 19:15:13 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Zyress wrote:


Not if you haver new +5's waiting in your respawn station, which I know I do, its just isk. Much like not flying a ship you can't afford to loose you shouldn't wear implants you can't afford to loose, you have to evaluate your risks and what you can afford.


Ya kinda just stated my point....

Cash gets you a plex, plex gets you isk, isk gets you attribute implants, attribute implants give you more SP per year.

hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.

Now, as far as evaluating your risks. Most players (expecially noobs) would place high value on attribute implants. So, don't fly what you can't afford to lose, OR don't fly where you're taking heavy risks on losing what you can't afford to lose.

When it comes to ships and modules, you can lose everything including your isk and all you would need to do is go grind out some isk for a couple of weeks and be back on your feet.

Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.

There should be no method to allow purchasing of SP, yet this is what attribute implants are.

I don't see why anyone wouldn't agree with this idea. It's a benefit to EVERYONE in Eve.

The only valid agrument that has been made is that they're a risk vs reward factor.
I agree, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be removed.

Instead, remove them and do as I have posted from another player's suggestion and allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted into these slots.

This does several things for Eve. Equal SP accumulation for all players, keeps risks up by allowing hardwires to be put in those slots, allows COMBAT to be modified instead of SP, also has the benefit of giving players more hardwire implant versatility, and helps out the hardwire implant market which is generally only effective for the most directed implants such as damage buffs and mining buffs.
Now, if players could mix and match, you might get players like me in a stealth bomber with an implant in slot 1 to boost CPU allowing me to get a better fit, and buff to torp damage in slot 6.

Hardwire implants are something most players are much more willing to risk because they actually feel like perks, so when you lose them, you don't feel like your effectiveness has been hendered.

Attribute implants are the exact opposite in that players feel they're a priority and without them your SP per year is hendered.


This is assuming everyone buys plex with cash. A practice I don't support. Never bought one, never sold one. I pay my subscription every month, thats the only real cash I put into the game. No way I can prove that to you but it is what it is. I support removing plex but not attribute implants.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#248 - 2012-05-11 03:01:09 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.




Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.


All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.

Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to.

You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2012-05-11 03:48:31 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.




Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.


All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.

Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to.

You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.


ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh.

SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#250 - 2012-05-11 04:19:46 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.




Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.


All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.

Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to.

You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.


ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh.

SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle.


Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use.

You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#251 - 2012-05-11 05:25:41 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.




Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.


All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.

Ultimately you want to have your cake and eat it to.

You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.


ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh.

SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle.


Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use.

You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase.


If u would bother to read my other posts, I suggest the removal of attribute implants and instead allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted, with restrictions of course.

Also, the fact that this thread has gone 13 pages means that there are plenty of players that support and don't support the idea.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. You're not that special not matter what your mom tells you.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#252 - 2012-05-11 05:54:12 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


Like I said, apart from not having an updated clone and flying a t3 you should never have to risk SP. You risk isk to gain isk.




Yet you dont risk SP. If you want the faster SP training you must risk it in ur pod.


All you are arguing is a nerf to high sec and a buff to null sec because of the WAY you play a game. PERIOD. Theres is not other reason this argument exists. You hate that someone else has something YOU cant have because of where you are in the game YET your perfectly fine that you have moon goo or other nice nifty bonuses that you get in null because you are THERE and it cannot be gotten somewhere else.

Ultimately you want to have your cae and eat it to.

You all made your choice the way you wanted to play and where. Now your reaping the cost of being there. And instead of HTFU and dealing with it as a way of life your screaming on the forums for a nerf/buff to make it all even and saying its "for the noobs" which its NOT its for null sec bears who are now whining.


ACTUALLY, I'm am one of the dreaded high sec carebears flying around with the same +5 attribute implants I've had since I bought them. I've been in Eve for 4 years and spent only 4 weeks of that either in null or in a wh.

SO, I am not protecting my interests at all, but rather noticing something that IMO, not only hinders the amount of available pvp, but is also unfair to those who chose a more rugged lifestyle.


Joe, no one cares. The idea sucks, its unnecessary and removes risk. Making ISK in the game is a goal and with it comes power. Be it a better ship or faster training. Mittani for instance, or Chribba, can pvp in full 5s and such and do it all day. You cannot I assume. It's because you don't have the isk to spare. Most don't. As such you have motivation to make more. Because it's power in game. Your idea bring us closer to the line of worthless isk. If you stopped losing implants upon podding the money would instead go to bigger ships and the same people who can afford the 5s would be instead in much more powerful hulls. The same argument could be made to just put everybody in the same income bracket to equalize ship use.

You can come up with a million reasons on why this or that needs to occur but its not broke doesn't need fixing and it will be rejected by the playerbase.


If u would bother to read my other posts, I suggest the removal of attribute implants and instead allow hardwire implants to be cross fitted, with restrictions of course.

Also, the fact that this thread has gone 13 pages means that there are plenty of players that support and don't support the idea.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. You're not that special not matter what your mom tells you.



No it doesn't joe. It just means the same few people reply with really long posts. You don't have thirteen pages of support and I doubt you have thirteen people behind it. Even if you did it doesn't mean anything. Some things one can envision being changed others not. If you believe you have a shot in hell of having podding risk reduced to a minimal level for the sake of fairness to those who die everyday compared to those who rarely die by all means keep posting. Like AFK cloak threads, ECM nerf threads, hulk survivability threads and make highsec safe threads your thread isn't likely to get a dev response. Ill check back next week and see if it's changed.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#253 - 2012-05-11 07:54:39 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:

No it doesn't joe. It just means the same few people reply with really long posts. You don't have thirteen pages of support and I doubt you have thirteen people behind it. Even if you did it doesn't mean anything.


I didn't say 13 pages of support, I said 13 pages of supporters and non-supporters. However, if I cared to go back through and count all the supporters of this idea in this single thread on this topic (not even considering several others on this thread) then I would find well over 13 supports in this one alone.


Oh, and yes, the more player support an idea has, the more likely it is to happen.

Also, CCP has already removed training skills, so...what's the next step?

Quote:
Some things one can envision being changed others not. If you believe you have a shot in hell of having podding risk reduced to a minimal level for the sake of fairness to those who die everyday compared to those who rarely die by all means keep posting. Like AFK cloak threads, ECM nerf threads, hulk survivability threads and make highsec safe threads your thread isn't likely to get a dev response. Ill check back next week and see if it's changed.


Again, my idea was NOT to reduce the risks of being podded. If you would ever care to comment on my suggestion that I've posted several times about removing them and allowing hardwire implants to be cross fitted with certain limitations, then you'd see that whether it's a +3 or a 3%, they still contain the same risks.

I don't see why you or anyone else can't get behind this idea. It's not like we're suggesting this for the sake of making life better for a certain group of people. This is good for EVERYONE in Eve.

Right now you might think it's a suggestion meant purely for null and wh cowboys. However, then next time you get podded and lose attribute implants, or the next time you have to spend 24 hrs stuck in a jump clone wondering how much time you're losing on the special skill you're training, then you'll be a lot more interested in a suggestion like this.

However, to me it appears that you, like me, spend most of your time in high sec putting little to no risk on your implants and seem to think that you have the right to do that while others don't.

EVERYTHING in Eve is designed to INCREASE with risks.
Mining in null gets you more rewards at greater risks
ratting/missioning/plexing in null gets more rewards at greater risks
Hardwire implants are noticably more effective in pvp than pve.

Everything grows with risk, EXCEPT attributes. I can fly in high sec safe and sound and even if I do get my ship exploded then my mod can escape relatively easily. However, in low you have insta scram gate camps and in null/wh you have bubbles. So, if rewards are supposed to increase with risks, then why are low/null/wh space players not getting higher benefits from attribute implants then those of high sec?
Oh wait, it's because they're not balanced around a risk vs reward system.... They're simply there to allow all players to increase there sp per year.

Again though, I don't see why anyone would be against this because it means that we can ALL train at faster rates without having to risk something that is basically a necessity.
Wouldn't it be nice to start a new character and not have to worry about spending 600 mil right off the bat for implants just so you can get into a ship and actually play the game?

I'm willing to bet that if you have an alt char/account then the first thing you did was buy those implants, which brings me back to my point of, If they're not a necessity, then why does everyone strive so hard to get and maintain them?
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#254 - 2012-05-11 08:00:25 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
[
hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.


I never saw ppl bitching about plex for imps. This is really that insignificant noone gives a f*ck about.
What people are against is pure instant SP for YOUR TOON against PLEX/CASH. What you are doing is just trying to justify your silly idea with something which simply is not true.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#255 - 2012-05-11 08:10:18 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
[
hence cash for SP which last time I checked the OVERWHELMING population of Eve was strongly against.


I never saw ppl bitching about plex for imps. This is really that insignificant noone gives a f*ck about.
What people are against is pure instant SP for YOUR TOON against PLEX/CASH. What you are doing is just trying to justify your silly idea with something which simply is not true.


How is it not true? If I use a plex to purchase attribute implants, then I have essentially just bought over 1 month worth of SP for the year, and if I do it every time I get podded then I've essentially removed this so called "risk" of having attribute implants.

No one gives a crap about hardwire implants because they dont' make the player and they don't break the fight. They simply give a slight edge that can easily be overcome through SP or player skill.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#256 - 2012-05-11 08:14:50 UTC
so people are apparently fine with this. Stop pretending its a big deal and thus a reason to remove them.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#257 - 2012-05-11 08:24:05 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
so people are apparently fine with this. Stop pretending its a big deal and thus a reason to remove them.


If everyone was fine with this, this and every other thread just like it that has been made wouldn't exist.

I'm sure if you actually measured this out, the vast majority of Eve players would be for the removal of attribute implants as long as something was there to maintain the risks.

I've already given an idea on how the risks could be maintained. Don't really feel like saying it again.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#258 - 2012-05-11 08:30:40 UTC
this is the first and only thread I remember having seen in this forum about removing learning implants.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#259 - 2012-05-11 08:50:50 UTC
Implants for high sec are a trade off. Theres lots of cheap ways to put implants into your clones. Some of which have been suggested here. And if you can afford to PvP in BC, T2 or T3 hulls but CANNOT afford even TWO +3s for your current attribute enhancements which gives you 3/5s of the training time and KEEP those in each time you get podded in null you are definitely either dying FAR to much or you suck at making isk in Eve and should never be flying the fleet setups your flying.

And if your Alliance has a ship replacement fund why not just have them *gulp* set up an implant replacement fund for every pod loss mail? I mean theyre swimming in isk according to the numbers. Its up to the players to use whats given to them NOT for CCP to nerf **** to oblivion everytime someone bitches.


Implants are NOT mandatory they are suggested highly at a price......RISK of loss.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2012-05-11 08:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: HELLBOUNDMAN
Robert Caldera wrote:
this is the first and only thread I remember having seen in this forum about removing learning implants.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=98727

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1100446#post1100446

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=187401#post187401

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26894

http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2011/10/death-to-attributes.html


I don't know how to search the old forums, but i'm sure there were tons on there, and these are the ones on these forums that were easy to find.