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Mac development - how does it work?
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Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#1 - 2012-05-10 12:24:41 UTC
So, just out of curiosity, how does Mac development work? This is a completely serious, 100% non-sarcastic question. Do the guys switch back and forth, or is there a dedicated Mac team (even if that team is just one or two people)?

I ask only because I see an ever-growing pile of Mac-specific issues that have either no CCP response, or outdated CCP responses saying "we've found something and will hopefully get it fixed soon" from months ago. Not to mention outdated stickies in this forum, such as the "how to connect to SiSi" thread,* the "Macintosh (Useful Threads)" thread, etc etc.

If there isn't a dedicated Mac team... would that be too much to ask, for future consideration? Even, like I said, one or two people. Thanks!



*The answer is,
1. Make a copy of your EVE Online application.
2. Name it "EVE Online SiSi."
3. Paste "/Applications/EVE\ Online\ Sisi.app/Contents/MacOS/EVE\ Online /server:87.237.38.50" into the terminal.
4. That's it, you're done! Keep in mind that SiSi for Mac does not always work; its updates sometimes lag behind the Windows version.

EVE Music
yellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-05-11 02:18:50 UTC
The Windows version is wrapped in Wine and fingers are crossed, with the maintenance and support being handled by a third party.

Basically, I wish this was false advertising (and I wish I researched it before paying) to claim they have a Mac version, if it isn't running natively, it isn't a Mac version. In fairness, CCP isn't the only offender but that doesn't really excuse the lack of support.
Christa Larne
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-05-12 19:44:56 UTC
Apple Mac machines represent around 10% of the installed based of personal computers worldwide. If we assume that translates into Eve, and that 10% of players are using the Mac client (whether it be native or not) then realistically we can expect to get 10% of CCP's issue resolution resources allocated to our problems. Add to that the fact that the problems we experience are likely to be less straightforward due to the additional application layer and it's no real surprise that some issues hang around for a while and that across the board we sometimes feel that we are not receiving the attention we would like.

While I would love to have a client that runs as stable as the Windows one I'm just happy that they have one that runs on the Mac (far too many games developers just don't bother). If the problem gets too bad I guess I could install bootcamp but right now I hate Windows more than I hate the problems with Eve so I will just stick with it.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#4 - 2012-05-13 04:28:20 UTC
I have my doubts that that 10% of EVE subscribers play on a Mac. Even so, zero people comprising a Mac-specific development team is still zero percent. I really would be interested to know if such a thing does in fact exist.

EVE Music
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-13 16:42:37 UTC
The current Vice chair of the CSM is an avid mac user- Trebor. I was hoping to hear some feedback from him regarding the mac issue and what he plans on doing about it.
So if anyone else fancies contacting him then please do so, as i personally think he's entered the witness protection program and disappeared.

Love United- Hate Glazer
yellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-05-14 11:38:17 UTC
Christa Larne wrote:
Apple Mac machines represent around 10% of the installed based of personal computers worldwide. If we assume that translates into Eve, and that 10% of players are using the Mac client (whether it be native or not) then realistically we can expect to get 10% of CCP's issue resolution resources allocated to our problems. Add to that the fact that the problems we experience are likely to be less straightforward due to the additional application layer and it's no real surprise that some issues hang around for a while and that across the board we sometimes feel that we are not receiving the attention we would like.

While I would love to have a client that runs as stable as the Windows one I'm just happy that they have one that runs on the Mac (far too many games developers just don't bother). If the problem gets too bad I guess I could install bootcamp but right now I hate Windows more than I hate the problems with Eve so I will just stick with it.


I don't pay 10% of the price. These things are irrelevant from a consumer point of view, it is not my job to care about how spreadsheets balance. Provide the service advertised or don't advertise it at all.

If CCP want to advertise they have a non-native Mac client, wrapped in a Wine server, that may or may not be functional at any given update, given the multiple layers of abstraction and that they may or may not provide adequate support for it based on the difficulty and cost of the problem. Fine, who ever pays understood the terms. But it isn't really that transparent is it? It is advertised as equal to the Windows version and priced the same.
Christa Larne
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-15 08:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Christa Larne
I haven't sat and gone through CCP's T&C but speaking as someone who runs Apps Dev projects as part of my job I would be pretty sure that in there are all the necessary caveats making it clear that they make no commitments whatsoever. You are not buying a product, you are paying for a monthly service, and as a consumer your right is to cancel your subscription at any time and stop being a customer. Beyond that I don't see that you have any legal claim whatsoever.

CCP is a business and while you as an individual may not be happy, expecting that they are going to structure their entire business around your demands is unrealistic. Given the fairly small number of people posting similar complaints on the Macintosh forums I think it is fairly safe to say that the vast majority of users are willing to accept the limitations.

To put this in context, CCP produce a single client and have engaged with a third party to provide a wrapper for it to run on the Mac. They could have just left us to sort that wrapper out ourselves giving us no option for support whatsoever. Personally I laud their willingness to at least make the attempt. Given this context, and the fact that much of the Mac complexity lies outside of CCP's immediate control, then the logical conclusion of your argument is that if CCP can't provide a quality of service that you are happy with then they should just stop delivering a Mac client. Well I need to be clear that you speak very much for yourself and I want CCP to continue doing everything they can to provide a Mac client and to make it work as best they can.

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.
OldMan Gana
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-15 15:15:37 UTC
I haven't sat and gone through the T&C either, however, speaking as a graduate of UC Berkeley Haas school of business with an MBA and a current Marketing Director for a national company, I feel I am somewhat qualified to write about customer expectations. The classic examples of : " Switch to Windows, Your Demands," etc etc, are absurd in the extreme.
Some wise words I learned from Naomi Karten, on managing customer expectations.

The product refers to the solution, system, response, resolution, deliverable and / or result. Whatever form the product takes, customers want it to work properly, to meet their needs, and to have that elusive quality of, well, quality. This is the technical element of service, and you're not likely to have happy customers without it.
But excelling in the technical element alone may not keep customers coming back unless you also attend to the process. In fact, for many customers, the process is more important than the product. The process concerns how customers feel they've been treated. This is the human element of service. And touchy-feely though it may appear, the human element is exceedingly important in achieving a high level of customer satisfaction.
Says it all really- standard business expectations 101.

Love United- Hate Glazer
yellow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2012-05-22 01:47:42 UTC
Christa Larne wrote:
I haven't sat and gone through CCP's T&C but speaking as someone who runs Apps Dev projects as part of my job I would be pretty sure that in there are all the necessary caveats making it clear that they make no commitments whatsoever. You are not buying a product, you are paying for a monthly service, and as a consumer your right is to cancel your subscription at any time and stop being a customer. Beyond that I don't see that you have any legal claim whatsoever.

CCP is a business and while you as an individual may not be happy, expecting that they are going to structure their entire business around your demands is unrealistic. Given the fairly small number of people posting similar complaints on the Macintosh forums I think it is fairly safe to say that the vast majority of users are willing to accept the limitations.

To put this in context, CCP produce a single client and have engaged with a third party to provide a wrapper for it to run on the Mac. They could have just left us to sort that wrapper out ourselves giving us no option for support whatsoever. Personally I laud their willingness to at least make the attempt. Given this context, and the fact that much of the Mac complexity lies outside of CCP's immediate control, then the logical conclusion of your argument is that if CCP can't provide a quality of service that you are happy with then they should just stop delivering a Mac client. Well I need to be clear that you speak very much for yourself and I want CCP to continue doing everything they can to provide a Mac client and to make it work as best they can.

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.


I don't even remotely think I have any legal ground, nor would I even care to pursue such a thing in the slightest, I only pursue it here in the hope of improving the Mac community as a whole, I'm sick of poor quality ports and Wine wrappers with lacking support.

If you read what I wrote again, my issue is with transparency of service. No my conclusion is not to provide no Mac client at all, my conclusion is to be adequately transparent about the type of client being provided.

If they want to advertise it as an equal service to the Windows client with equal support for equal price, that's fine, they are free to do that. However I feel it is disingenuous and transparency on the matter would have been appreciated. To be clear, I don't think dense T&C's are transparent.

Your last assessment is correct, given that I won't play on Windows, I have only one option left and I have taken it, my subscription is not set to continue. If there is an exit survey, I will tell CCP my reasons and that will be the end of it. I don't have any hard feelings, I understand I may be a minority in a minority but that won't and shouldn't stop me from expressing an opinion.
Christa Larne
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2012-05-22 11:06:49 UTC
Sorry to see you go but sympathise with your reasons.

I think what is also interesting is the lack of consistency in problems on the Mac operating system. Some people can barely play the game at all while others have a mostly stable existence with the occasional glitch. Given that most of us are running similar versions of OS X on machines that are technically comparable (they are all Macs after all) I find this difficult to explain. One might assume this is a result of interactions between Cider and other applications on the Mac which, if true, would explain why it is so difficult to track these problems down.

Yes it would be nice if CCP went for a native Mac OS X build but I think if they were going to do that they would have done so by now so I do not hold out any real hope on that front.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-05-24 18:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Christa Larne wrote:
....

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.


Better yet, install Parallels or VMWare on your Mac and save the rebooting between Windows and OSX partitions. :)

This is the win-win IMHO, get the better OSX user experience you bought a Mac for, and when you want pew pew you launch the windows EVE client from the OSX dock just like any OSX application, seamless with 'coherence mode' turned on... :)

Would you like to know more?
ito kazami
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-05-25 15:35:07 UTC
mac devellopement - how doest it work ?

easy : it doesn' t work.
Dieter Rams
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-28 14:33:03 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Christa Larne wrote:
....

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.


Better yet, install Parallels or VMWare on your Mac and save the rebooting between Windows and OSX partitions. :)

This is the win-win IMHO, get the better OSX user experience you bought a Mac for, and when you want pew pew you launch the windows EVE client from the OSX dock just like any OSX application, seamless with 'coherence mode' turned on... :)


How's the performance with this? I'm currently running EVE through Boot Camp.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-05-28 16:44:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Dieter Rams wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Christa Larne wrote:
....

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.


Better yet, install Parallels or VMWare on your Mac and save the rebooting between Windows and OSX partitions. :)

This is the win-win IMHO, get the better OSX user experience you bought a Mac for, and when you want pew pew you launch the windows EVE client from the OSX dock just like any OSX application, seamless with 'coherence mode' turned on... :)


How's the performance with this? I'm currently running EVE through Boot Camp.


Performance is excellent. With enough RAM and tuning the RAM & CPU assigned to the Parallels VM I find performance equal to running in BootCamp. I also give the Windows VM priority over the OSX OS, to ensure I am running EVE as close to native as possible. In summary, Parallels is smart enough to know when EVE is running fullscreen to give it priority.

On an 8 core iMac with 16GB I assigned 4 cores to the Windows VM and 4GB of RAM, and consistently get 60FPS on two EVE clients running simultaneously, and alt-tabbing between the two.

Now if we could just get CCP to acknowledge this is *the* way to play EVE on a Mac and formally support Parallels, my life would be complete....

Would you like to know more?
Denuo Secus
#15 - 2012-05-29 14:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:


...

Performance is excellent. With enough RAM and tuning the RAM & CPU assigned to the Parallels VM I find performance equal to running in BootCamp. I also give the Windows VM priority over the OSX OS, to ensure I am running EVE as close to native as possible. In summary, Parallels is smart enough to know when EVE is running fullscreen to give it priority.

On an 8 core iMac with 16GB I assigned 4 cores to the Windows VM and 4GB of RAM, and consistently get 60FPS on two EVE clients running simultaneously, and alt-tabbing between the two.

Now if we could just get CCP to acknowledge this is *the* way to play EVE on a Mac and formally support Parallels, my life would be complete....


Interesting! I tried Parallels as well, but quite while ago (~2 years). Was not playable then. Two questions:

- Did you try a current VMWare version as well? If so: How's the performance compared to Parallels?
- Do you run two EVE clients in one VM or in two individual VMs?
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-05-30 13:39:13 UTC
Denuo Secus wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:


...

Performance is excellent. With enough RAM and tuning the RAM & CPU assigned to the Parallels VM I find performance equal to running in BootCamp. I also give the Windows VM priority over the OSX OS, to ensure I am running EVE as close to native as possible. In summary, Parallels is smart enough to know when EVE is running fullscreen to give it priority.

On an 8 core iMac with 16GB I assigned 4 cores to the Windows VM and 4GB of RAM, and consistently get 60FPS on two EVE clients running simultaneously, and alt-tabbing between the two.

Now if we could just get CCP to acknowledge this is *the* way to play EVE on a Mac and formally support Parallels, my life would be complete....


Interesting! I tried Parallels as well, but quite while ago (~2 years). Was not playable then. Two questions:

- Did you try a current VMWare version as well? If so: How's the performance compared to Parallels?
- Do you run two EVE clients in one VM or in two individual VMs?


I am running Parallels 7 but started on v 6. At the time of my purchase Parallels 6 outscored VMWare on graphics/directX performance so I went the Parallels route at that time, don't have any current comparitive data but can say Parallels 7 rocks.

I run both client instances in the same VM, in full screen mode -- and alt-tab between the two apps (within the vm).

Key is to not have 'shaders' in EVE graphics settings set to high, but all other settings you can crank up if inclined -- and get 60FPS.

Would you like to know more?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#17 - 2012-05-30 20:28:47 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Christa Larne wrote:
....

If you really cannot deal with the stability issues then either install bootcamp and play on Windows or stop playing.


Better yet, install Parallels or VMWare on your Mac and save the rebooting between Windows and OSX partitions. :)

This is the win-win IMHO, get the better OSX user experience you bought a Mac for, and when you want pew pew you launch the windows EVE client from the OSX dock just like any OSX application, seamless with 'coherence mode' turned on... :)


Unfortunately, unless CCP gets some pretty rich data from the client, they now think that they have one less Mac user and one more Windows user, and life becomes that much worse for the remaining users running the Mac client.

The logical end of this road is the termination of the Mac client. And, since I have no other reason to install Windows and no inclination to pay for it just to play EVE, I would be forced to leave if that happened.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!