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New frigate stats on SiSi listed here. Tiercide is upon us, discuss!
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Tobiaz
Spacerats
#1 - 2012-05-10 10:40:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
CCP Goliath wrote:


Frigate balancing:
• Incursus
• Merlin
• Punisher
• Tormentor


Incursus:
10% Small Hybrid Turret Falloff
5% Small Hybrid Turret Damage
10% Armor Repairer Effectiveness


  • CPU 135 (+25)
  • Grid 45 (+11)
  • Hi 3
  • Med 3
  • Low 4 (+2)
  • Turret 3

  • Shield 400 (+87)
  • Armor 450 (+82)
  • Struct 500 (+132)
  • Drone Cap 5
  • Drone BW 5
  • Cargo 165
  • Inertia 3.15 (+0.0005)
  • Capacitor 370 (+45)
  • Cap Rech 185 (-49.83)
  • Lock range 30 (-7.5)
  • Scan Res 600 (-20)
  • MAG 9
  • Max Lock 4 (+1)
  • Sig Rad 42 (-2)
  • Velocity 340 (-4)


Merlin:
10% Small Hybrid Turret Optimal Range
5% Shield Resistances
5% Small Hybrid Turret Damage


  • CPU 180 (+5)
  • Grid 40 (+5)
  • Hi 3 (-1)
  • Med 4
  • Low 3 (+1)
  • Turret 3 (+1)
  • Missile 0 (-2)

  • Shield 500 (+31)
  • Armor 350 (-1)
  • Struct 400 (+87)
  • Cargo 150 (+20)
  • Inertia 3.6 (+0.2845)
  • Capacitor 350
  • Cap Rech 175 (-59.38)
  • Lock range 50 (+20)
  • Scan Res 580 (+30)
  • GRAVI 9
  • Max Lock 5 (+1)
  • Sig Rad 39 (-1)
  • Velocity 310 (+42)


Punisher:
10% Small Energy Turret Capacitory Use
5% Armor Resistances
5% Small Energy Turret Damage

  • CPU 124 (+9)
  • Grid 55 (+10)
  • Hi 4
  • Med 2
  • Low 4
  • Turret 3

  • Shield 350 (-41)
  • Armor 500 (+31)
  • Struct 450 (+59)
  • Cargo 135
  • Inertia 3.35 (-0.86)
  • Capacitor 425
  • Cap Rech 212.5 (-68.75)
  • Lock range 25
  • Scan Res 640 (+30)
  • RADAR 9
  • Max Lock 4 (-1)
  • Sig Rad 37 (-1)
  • Velocity 330 (+43)


Tormentor:
5% Cargo Capacity
20% Mining Laser Yield
-60% Mining Laser Capacitor Use (role)
10% Small Energy Turret Capacitory Use
5% Small Energy Turret Damage

  • CPU 130 (-10)
  • Grid 49 (+34)
  • Hi 3 (+1)
  • Med 3 (+2)
  • Low 4 (+1)
  • Turret 2

  • Shield 350 (+243)
  • Armor 450 (+207)
  • Struct 400 (+165)
  • Drone Cap 10 (+5)
  • Drone BW 10 (+5)
  • Cargo 130 (-105)
  • Inertia 3.05 (-1.41)
  • Capacitor 400 (+275)
  • Cap Rech 200 (+106.25)
  • Lock range 40 (+15)
  • Scan Res 620 (+110)
  • RADAR 9 (+5)
  • Max Lock 4 (+1)
  • Sig Rad 35 (-10)
  • Velocity 320 (+19)


WOW, Tiercide is some serious ****!!! Shocked

My opinion

  • I love the new Tormentor, but drop the damage bonus (leave the tank&spank to the punisher) for a small drone bonus or something to boost active tanking or perhaps even a nos bonus. It needs a slightly better defined role.

  • I think the Tormentor would be an extremely viable ship if it was turned more into a nos&drone boat. It would also suit it's name :) In that case it should also get like 15 Drone BW and a 30m3 bay on top of the nos bonus.

  • I think the Tormentor should get only 8 or even 7 RADAR strength. It has it's drones to back it up.

  • The new Merlin is BAD. It's current role as T1 frigate sniper is quite unique and the 10% hybrid optimal with 4 high and good tank, kept at least the option open to be used as an acceptable blastership. Don't remove the 10% hybrid optimal ( the new +20km locking range is now also just insult to injury). One more low and a new damage bonus can't compensate for the loss off range + hi slot, and just locks it into a role as a very average blastership.

  • I'd prefer it if the Merlin kept it's fourth missile slot instead of the additional lowslot.

  • If the Merlin is to be a frigate sniper (and I think it should at least keep that option open) it's Sig radius is a bit too much. Snipers can barely speedtank, so it should get at least some sigtank (perhaps swap it with the Punisher)

  • Please make sure that the 3 hi slot turrets all use the Merlin's turret blisters on the nose of the ship, not the one on the wings or the one on the cabin.

  • The Punisher's new laser damage bonus is great, though if people stop fitting projectiles on it, the tank suddenly becomes a lot less remarkable when active tanked, especially without the cap drain bonus. The tank is the main reason why people fly Punishers (though many also use buffer tanks). This needs some serious discussion, how to keep the Punisher a good optional active tanking ship while still promoting lasers.

  • I think the Punisher should get a locking range of 30 so it can fit medium beams without a mandatory sensor booster.

  • I think the Inertia reduction of the Punisher is a bit too much.

  • The Incursus already is an pretty nasty ship. And while it can't hold a candle to the popularity of Rifters, I think it's still one of the more popular T1 frigates used in RvB, even as a Tr2. It's used as a glass cannon though and I fear with all the new boosts to EHP and the armor rep bonus, it might become a bit too good. Perhaps keep the EHP boost, and swap the armor rep bonus for a MWD cap and/or speed bonus. Keep it a glass cannon, only one that can have a lot more fun with a MWD, while remaining (slightly less) brittle.

  • If the Incursus is going to be boosted to OMGWTFBQBINYOURFACE, it deserves to have its magnetrometric strenght dropped to 8 and it's locking range to 25.


One very big problem though: Tiercide should ALSO mean taking a good look at the mineral costs. The Tormentor for example only costs like 50k, yet now it becomes close to the efficiency of current Tr3 frigates!

Also CCP Ytterbium, if you're committing Tiercide, why are you powercreeping the Tr3 frigates first?

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Sarmatiko
#2 - 2012-05-10 12:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarmatiko
Looks like it's just simple compilation of known stats from "Frigate rebalance" thread.

Actual stats from the diff between current TQ and latest Sisi clients:

  • Incursus
    • [-|y] shipFalloffBonusGF
    [+|n] shipArmorRepairingGF2
    agility: 3.1445 => 3.15
    armorHP: 368.0 => 450.0
    capacitorCapacity: 325.0 => 370.0
    cpuOutput: 110.0 => 135.0
    hp: 368.0 => 500.0
    lowSlots: 2.0 => 4.0
    maxLockedTargets: 3.0 => 4.0
    maxTargetRange: 37500.0 => 30000.0
    maxVelocity: 344.0 => 340.0
    powerOutput: 34.0 => 45.0
    rechargeRate: 234375.0 => 185000.0
    scanResolution: 620.0 => 600.0
    scanSpeed: 3500.0 => 2500.0
    shieldCapacity: 313.0 => 400.0
    signatureRadius: 44.0 => 42.0
    warpCapacitorNeed: 1.67e-06 => 2.24e-06

  • Merlin
    • [-|y] shipHybridRangeBonusCF2
    [+|n] shipHybridDamageBonusCF2
    agility: 3.3155 => 3.6
    armorHP: 351.0 => 350.0
    capacity: 130.0 => 150.0
    cpuOutput: 175.0 => 180.0
    hiSlots: 4.0 => 3.0
    hp: 313.0 => 400.0
    launcherSlotsLeft: 2.0 => 0
    lowSlots: 2.0 => 3.0
    maxLockedTargets: 4.0 => 5.0
    maxTargetRange: 30000.0 => 50000.0
    maxVelocity: 268.0 => 310.0
    powerOutput: 35.0 => 40.0
    rechargeRate: 234375.0 => 175000.0
    scanResolution: 550.0 => 580.0
    shieldCapacity: 469.0 => 500.0
    shipBonusCF2: 10.0 => 5.0
    signatureRadius: 40.0 => 39.0
    turretSlotsLeft: 2.0 => 3.0
    warpCapacitorNeed: 2.68e-06 => 2.24e-06

  • Punisher
    • [-|y] shipEnergyTCapNeedBonusAF
    [+|n] shipSETDmgBonus2AF
    agility: 4.21 => 3.35
    armorHP: 469.0 => 500.0
    cpuOutput: 115.0 => 124.0
    hp: 391.0 => 450.0
    maxLockedTargets: 5.0 => 4.0
    maxVelocity: 287.0 => 330.0
    powerOutput: 45.0 => 55.0
    rechargeRate: 281250.0 => 212500.0
    scanResolution: 610.0 => 640.0
    shieldCapacity: 391.0 => 350.0
    shipBonus2AF: -10.0 => 5.0
    signatureRadius: 38.0 => 37.0
    warpCapacitorNeed: 1.67e-06 => 2.24e-06

  • Rifter
    • armorHP: 351.0 => 400.0
    capacity: 130.0 => 140.0
    hp: 336.0 => 350.0
    maxVelocity: 353.0 => 355.0
    rechargeRate: 187500.0 => 125000.0
    shieldCapacity: 391.0 => 450.0

  • Tormentor
    • [-|y] miningCapBonus
    [-|y] shipCargoBonusAF
    [-|y] shipMiningBonusAF
    [+|y] shipEnergyTCapNeedBonusAF
    [+|y] shipSETDmgBonusAF
    agility: 4.46 => 3.05
    armorHP: 243.0 => 450.0
    capacitorCapacity: 125.0 => 400.0
    capacity: 235.0 => 130.0
    cpuOutput: 140.0 => 130.0
    droneBandwidth: 5.0 => 10.0
    droneCapacity: 5.0 => 10.0
    hiSlots: 2.0 => 3.0
    hp: 235.0 => 400.0
    lowSlots: 3.0 => 4.0
    maxLockedTargets: 3.0 => 4.0
    maxTargetRange: 25000.0 => 40000.0
    maxVelocity: 301.0 => 320.0
    medSlots: 1.0 => 3.0
    powerOutput: 15.0 => 49.0
    rechargeRate: 93750.0 => 200000.0
    scanRadarStrength: 5.0 => 9.0
    scanResolution: 510.0 => 620.0
    scanSpeed: 5000.0 => 2000.0
    shieldCapacity: 118.0 => 350.0
    shipBonus2AF: 20.0 => -10.0
    signatureRadius: 45.0 => 35.0
    warpCapacitorNeed: 1.67e-06 => 2.24e-06
    Autonomous Monster
    Paradox Interstellar
    #3 - 2012-05-10 12:35:31 UTC
    Active tank on a frigate? Not... what I would have gone for. What? But I guess it's worth testing.

    Especially with all those other bonii, jaysus. Shocked
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #4 - 2012-05-10 12:36:55 UTC
    I just looked them up on SiSi. I don't really have the skillset to dig them up from the client data itself. The stats are the same though. I looked for a discussion thread for the new frigate stats here on the test server feedback forum, but I didn't see one.

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
    Jame Jarl Retief
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #5 - 2012-05-10 12:51:28 UTC
    Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #6 - 2012-05-10 12:58:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?



    Imicus still has 15m3 drones. My guess is that one is going to be boosted to be on par with the rest as as a combat frigate, the Atron might hold a suprise similar to the Tormentor, and perhaps even some more drones for the Tristan, dropping its missiles.

    I do hope CCP isn't going to change the Imicus into the new squatting 'pooper' model they showed at fanfest though. The art-devs' crusade against asymmetry is getting ridiculous.

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
    Jerick Ludhowe
    Internet Tuff Guys
    #7 - 2012-05-10 13:14:19 UTC
    Need to do ALL t1 frigates at once else this is going to cause a **** storm once live. Going to have 5mini afs, and then a bunch of **** for the rest with most probably a 6+ month waiting period till another handful of ships are given attention that they have needed for years upon years upon years.

    Please don't lie to us ccp... Inferno was to be far more significant than crucible as far as changes and balance is concerned per your own words. At this rate it looks like crucible was far more significant in terms of balance and it will be years upon years until we get a functionally balanced game... Take some of that money you're printing with plex sales and invest it into a competent content balance team please, it's been desperately needed since tomb bowed out so many years ago.
    Tankn00blicus
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #8 - 2012-05-10 15:00:16 UTC
    Tobiaz wrote:
    [quote=Jame Jarl Retief]I do hope CCP isn't going to change the Imicus into the new squatting 'pooper' model they showed at fanfest though. The art-devs' crusade against asymmetry is getting ridiculous.
    The Imicus model needs to be changed to something other than its current derp form.
    Mariner6
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #9 - 2012-05-10 15:07:33 UTC
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?



    Well why not? CCP hates Gallente and the Arbi is arguably already a better drone boat than the Vexor. Why is there not T1 Gallente frig that can handle a single full flight of lights? Oh wait, because the awesome new overpowered extrinsic mod is out to save the day. Too bad it eats too much CPU to put on a frig. Of course that whopping extra 11 dps might OP the ship.

    More active repping? really? I know lets just force this whole game into solo work and small gang. Maybe with the supposed change to rigs but then again Gallente continues to be pigeon holed vice giving it bonuses that allows creativity with the fit without having to sacrifice a ship bonus that could be useful. So if you want to buffer the incurses, forget it.
    Callic Veratar
    #10 - 2012-05-10 15:34:03 UTC
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?



    The Navitas is supposed to become a full drone frigate (guessing a wing of 5 with no guns).
    Callic Veratar
    #11 - 2012-05-10 15:37:26 UTC
    An important point: the current defined role for these ships (merlin is a sniper, incursus is a glass cannon) may not work with the new balance. These ships are meant to be the combat frigate backbone of a fleet.
    Tobiaz
    Spacerats
    #12 - 2012-05-10 16:17:37 UTC
    Callic Veratar wrote:
    An important point: the current defined role for these ships (merlin is a sniper, incursus is a glass cannon) may not work with the new balance. These ships are meant to be the combat frigate backbone of a fleet.


    True, but those 'backbones' don't necessarily have to follow the same doctrine for every race. And currently the Merlin is OK, even with it's sniper bonus, it's probably the second most used T1 frigate in RvB.

    Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
    Mariner6
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #13 - 2012-05-10 20:44:02 UTC
    Callic Veratar wrote:
    Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
    Wait, hold on, am I reading this right? Tormentor gets twice the drones of the Incursus? Sooo, it's official? Amarr are the new drone masters and Gallente are what exactly?



    The Navitas is supposed to become a full drone frigate (guessing a wing of 5 with no guns).


    Where did you see this about the Navitas? Its not on Sisi.

    1) I can't believe the Rifter got faster and better, already hands down the best T1 frig.
    2) I can't believe the incurses got slower despite all the issues with blaster's short range and time to get there.
    3) I can't believe that the scan resolution of the Incurses got lowered. I mean, if Gallente are supposed to be the scan resolution race/dampeners then shouldn't they have the highest scan res of any race? Kind of like Caldari seem to have the highest sensor strength? They just made this a much less valuable tackle ship.
    4) Why does the Atron even mention mining in the description, always wondered that?
    5) Hate the armor repair bonus. I mean really? Isn't it fail enough on the Myrm and Hyperion. Lets see, a close in tackler that must come into neut range to do its job, and lets active rep it. Great. So much for tackling anything other than frigs and maybe some cruisers. Oh i know I'll put a cap booster on it, then I lose web and once I'm scrammed I lose all speed. Lets nerf the speed some more too. Oh and hybrids still need cap to shoot, so now the drones pwn me. Very frustrated with all this. What's the vision here CCP?

    Mariner6
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #14 - 2012-05-10 20:55:00 UTC
    Callic Veratar wrote:
    An important point: the current defined role for these ships (merlin is a sniper, incursus is a glass cannon) may not work with the new balance. These ships are meant to be the combat frigate backbone of a fleet.


    I always saw the tristan as the combat frig and the incurses as the tackler. But whatever.
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #15 - 2012-05-10 21:13:16 UTC
    Sarmatiko wrote:
  • Rifter
    • armorHP: 351.0 => 400.0
    capacity: 130.0 => 140.0
    hp: 336.0 => 350.0
    maxVelocity: 353.0 => 355.0
    rechargeRate: 187500.0 => 125000.0
    shieldCapacity: 391.0 => 450.0

    What the herping derp?

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Jame Jarl Retief
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #16 - 2012-05-10 21:36:23 UTC
    Mariner6 wrote:

    Where did you see this about the Navitas? Its not on Sisi.

    1) I can't believe the Rifter got faster and better, already hands down the best T1 frig.
    2) I can't believe the incurses got slower despite all the issues with blaster's short range and time to get there.
    3) I can't believe that the scan resolution of the Incurses got lowered. I mean, if Gallente are supposed to be the scan resolution race/dampeners then shouldn't they have the highest scan res of any race? Kind of like Caldari seem to have the highest sensor strength? They just made this a much less valuable tackle ship.
    4) Why does the Atron even mention mining in the description, always wondered that?
    5) Hate the armor repair bonus. I mean really? Isn't it fail enough on the Myrm and Hyperion. Lets see, a close in tackler that must come into neut range to do its job, and lets active rep it. Great. So much for tackling anything other than frigs and maybe some cruisers. Oh i know I'll put a cap booster on it, then I lose web and once I'm scrammed I lose all speed. Lets nerf the speed some more too. Oh and hybrids still need cap to shoot, so now the drones pwn me. Very frustrated with all this. What's the vision here CCP?



    That's pretty much my reaction as well. Doesn't look well thought-out at all.

    I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but on paper it looks like same old disastrously poor balancing without any thought given to how and where the ships can be used.
    Mariner6
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #17 - 2012-05-10 21:38:50 UTC
    Ya, that's what I said. Just tried a couple of incurses fits. If you like solo work against other T1 frigs then this boat is great. Good luck finding that fight other than arranged.

    Otherwise hate it, went in for a tackle on a Hurricane. Insta neuted, insta death. Want my buffer back, but then wasted ship bonus. Did I mention its slower?
    Recoil IV
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2012-05-10 23:20:27 UTC
    i am dissapoint,i dont have gunnery skills except weapon up.but i do have max missiles skills,and only caldari ship skills.so what ships do i loose instanly because of ccp`s poor decisions,


    merlin (wont be able to fitt rocket launchers now)
    cormorant (only turret slots :( , i am very dissapoint about that,every other race has bonuses and slots for what they are focused on)
    ferox (no bonuses for missiles,altough i can fitt 5 missile launchers )
    rokh (do i really need to say??only 4 turret slots,and no bonus damage for them)
    raptor,eagle,naga etc.


    compared to minmatar : all their ships can use projectiles no matter what,and they have enough turret slots and bonuses to worth flying.

    compared to gallente : all gallente ships have turret slots no matter what,except for eris and lachesis,but they also have enough turret slots.

    compared to amarr : all t1 amarr ships will have only turret slots.some t2 ships are specialized on missiles like vengeance,malediction,sacrilege,damnation.<<----this doesnt really fair either.

    please ccp,restore balance,human kind will be greatefull for your workLol
    Kuehnelt
    Devoid Privateering
    #19 - 2012-05-11 00:45:35 UTC
    Is cap recharge being buffed or nerfed with the changes above?

    The new Tormentor is cool enough that I'll actually try again to get a SiSi client working. Can't wait to see what they do to the Executioner.

    Re. Amarr and drones: the current pattern is for Amarr to have larger drone bays and less drone bandwidth (see: Arby vs. Vexor, Sentinel vs. Ishkur). Right now, on TQ, the Magnate has two drones, the Crucifier has one drone, and the Tormentor has one drone -- but none of these ships do any damage worth speaking of. And of the Arby being a better drone boat: sure, you can argue it, but have you seen their respective highslot layouts? The Vexor can do everything the Arby does even better - more neuting, more repairing, whatever, but Vexor pilots take the option given to them of a rack of guns. If you want to kill stuff in a drone boat, Amarr doesn't beat Gallente. And the new Tormentor is so much better of a boat that I think you should be more excited about what's coming for Gallente.
    Kuehnelt
    Devoid Privateering
    #20 - 2012-05-11 01:02:31 UTC
    Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
    Need to do ALL t1 frigates at once else this is going to cause a **** storm once live. Going to have 5mini afs, and then a bunch of **** for the rest with most probably a 6+ month waiting period till another handful of ships are given attention that they have needed for years upon years upon years.


    Not against other ships getting this treatment, but right now: Rifter is king, Caldari have Merlin and Kestrel, Gallente have Tristan and Incursus, Amarr have only the Punisher. After just the listed changes, Rifter would still be king but Amarr would have a secondary combat frig. So please call off the **** storm.
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