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The not-quite-a-carebear objection to the wardec system.
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#41 - 2012-05-10 13:52:17 UTC
Savage Angel wrote:

If you can write a routine that can tell the subjective difference between a valid reason and a petty one, you will be a millionaire.



They can't even manage to make this happen for Market Bots and those issues.

But it is nice to have a dream.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#42 - 2012-05-10 14:00:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
Cassiel Valdis wrote:

Re: your edit: Hardly. As I stated VERY clearly in my OP, I approve of PVP. That said, PVP and plain griefing are NOT the same thing, and you know it.


Just saying you're not against PvP , but only if it doesn't affect you, doesn't fly in EVE, mister.

And stomping a clueless carebear corp in empire into oblivion with a wardec isn't grieving either. Yes it's brutal, but it's no different from the fox that eats the chicken that leaves the safety of the coop (meaning the NPC-corp).

Wardecs keep empire healthy by weeding out failcorps that prey on clueless newbies.

I didn't say anything about the effect on me, specifically, being the reason I'm against the wardec system - I clearly stated that I had NOT lost anything to a wardec so far, in fact. All other forms of PVP, be it in null, low, or highsec affect me, and as I said, I haven't got the slightest problem with that. I've lost my fair share of ships and then some, I suspect, and I've learned from each loss and moved on. It's a reasonable part of the game.

I'm not sure what your definition of griefing actually is, but personally, I see anything that causes new players to be completely helpless no matter where they go and what they do to be a realistic definition of the word. Cut-throat competition is one thing, and it's great for the game; bludgeoning new people into povery just because you're bored is another thing entirely, and is terrible for the game.

I am not asking for PVP to be removed, even from the highest of high sec, I'm only arguing that the aggressors should have to risk something in order to engage there. Two million credits is nothing.

Edit: It's "sister," not "mister," if you want to be precise; though I'm not offended either way.


My definition of griefing is picking on a person for non-gameplay reasons. Declaring war with a big corp of veteran players on a small newbie corp for no ingame motive like removal of a pos or somthing, is griefing. Yet that almost never happens. No matter how many carebears use this as an argument against wardecs.

And there is nothing wrong with killing newbies, because nobody can bounce back from a loss as easily as a newbie. The problem is in newbies not understanding basic rules like 'don't fly what you can't afford to lose', or how getting bigger and better ships is not a good way to have more fun in EVE. And either they learn that the hard way, or they are lucky enough to join a good corp that teaches them that.

Too bad there are just too many failcorps in the game, though they luckily often fold instantly under the pressure of a wardec. The fact that this affects newbies, doesn't make it griefing in any way in my opinion. The best lessons are the ones that hurt.

And this is something not many players seem to understand, but being poor in a game is a good thing. Being rich is one of the fastest ways to quit EVE, either by boredom or by losing it all in one swoop.

You should also take a look at the current wardec mechanics on SiSi. It seems the cheapest you can wardec a corp for now is 50m ISK.

As for the gender, I just assume everyone in EVE is male, unless I've heard them on TS (and even then there are occasional doubts.)

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!
Cassiel Valdis
#43 - 2012-05-10 14:03:31 UTC
Savage Angel wrote:
There are very valid reasons to have a wardec system, and to declare war on an enemy corp. There are also some very petty, silly, or plain mean reasons to declare war.

The real question with wardecs has always been: Can you tell the difference with a few lines of code?

If you can write a routine that can tell the subjective difference between a valid reason and a petty one, you will be a millionaire. If not, CCP has to chose whether they want a PvP centric game and let a few smaller corps be collateral damage, or allow enemy corps to hide in Hisec when they want to. I think we all know which way CCP will go on that decision.

I can see the reasons the system exists - huge corporations at war with each other is a big part of the theme of the game, and I'm behind that. The problem is that the mechanic as-is doesn't differentiate between rival corporations who've taken off the gloves to each other, and corporations who are simply crushing smaller, helpless newbs. I agree that a few lines of code can't tell what a player's intent may be, but they CAN at least penalize corps who are wardeccing another corp which obviously cannot mount a defense (see the first page post on relative SPs) - or at the VERY least, they could make a wardec cost enough to discourage some people for just doing it for lulz. Sure, you could still **** someone off bad enough that they could be willing to come after you despite the cost - but at the current pricetag, there is no dis-incentive to thrashing random newbs just because you're psychotic and bored.

Someone wants to kill random people, that's fine and there are already mechanics in place - ones which make sense - that allow it; you're just going to have to either take some risk yourself, or wait until those newbs grow up a bit and start wandering out into the scary parts of town. I don't understand why this is not only unacceptable to so many people, but so unacceptable that they're willing to go nuts on someone for even discussing it.

I once killed a six-pack, just to watch it die.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#44 - 2012-05-10 14:05:17 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:

As for the gender, I just assume everyone in EVE is male, unless I've heard them on TS (and even then there are occasional doubts.)



I think we are getting some hints as to some of the mindsets that are reflected in game play, that do indeed have no connection to reality.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Cassiel Valdis
#45 - 2012-05-10 14:16:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassiel Valdis
Tobiaz wrote:
My definition of griefing is picking on a person for non-gameplay reasons. Declaring war with a big corp of veteran players on a small newbie corp for no ingame motive like removal of a pos or somthing, is griefing.

Yet I submit that this is *exactly* what started me writing this thread. The corp was the same size as ours, but when their average member has been playing 10x+ as long as ours... well, you see the problem.

Tobiaz wrote:

And there is nothing wrong with killing newbies, because nobody can bounce back from a loss as easily as a newbie.

I don't disagree, I'm not asking for some sort of blanket newb immunity. I just don't see why THIS particular way of engaging them makes sense. Clueless newbs ARE going to wander into low security systems, they ARE going to lose ships, and that IS a good thing for them. Again, no problem whatsoever with brutal PVP. I just think this one specific mechanic as it currently stands is wide-open to abuse, without adding any real value to make up for it.

Tobiaz wrote:
You should also take a look at the current wardec mechanics on SiSi. It seems the cheapest you can wardec a corp for now is 50m ISK.

This makes me happy. I actually read over the dev post on it and gods help me, but I didn't notice this. I think I was too busy /facepalming over the wardec cost being modded by the number of random alts you stuck in your corp.

Tobiaz wrote:
As for the gender, I just assume everyone in EVE is male, unless I've heard them on TS (and even then there are occasional doubts.)

Well, as I said, I'm not really bothered either way - I grew up playing FPS games and pretending I was a dude because it just wasn't cool to be a chick playing violent games back then. But just to be a devil's advocate - I'd like to point out that this is no more sane than assuming everyone is female unless proven otherwise. I ain't asking you to move in with me, what's the harm in assuming I'm the gender that I claim I am? /offtopic

I once killed a six-pack, just to watch it die.
Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-10 14:32:06 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Nothing of the kind is happening. That's just player choice and the game offering options. Each choice has its pros and cons — you have to choose which one is the better for you.

The only “encouragement” comes from players who perpetuate the myth that it's dangerous to have a corp.


Few things here. First, you are seriously missing the point to my main post, to whit: war decs in general add nothing but grief, subtract from realism. I don't care how much you like/don't like PC/NPC corps or the decision making process surrounding them - the war dec system is absurd from any angle.

Second, what do you think pros and cons are, if not things which encourage people to make specific choices? Adding massive cons to something is absolutely an encouragement to do the opposite. If you're going to try playing semantics games with me, at least do a good job of it.

Third, your "myth" is currently my reality, so don't even bother trying to convince me of that piece of garbage.



The way things are, nothing is going to be changed on this mater. You take it or leave it.
And when critical mass is reached, CCP will lose or gain players if they do not react promptly.
Pushing someone to do something he don't want to do is generally bad idea.
At the end, everything is about money.

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !
Cassiel Valdis
#47 - 2012-05-10 14:45:18 UTC
Scien Inkunen wrote:

The way things are, nothing is going to be changed on this mater. You take it or leave it.
And when critical mass is reached, CCP will lose or gain players if they do not react promptly.
Pushing someone to do something he don't want to do is generally bad idea.
At the end, everything is about money.

I think the money thing is probably a point in my favor here. Now, I'll be the first to say I'm going on gut instinct here rather than any concrete research, but which do you guys honestly think does/would cause more ragequits? Newbies/PVEers/industrialist getting harassed, or PVPers being forced to fight on fairer terms?

Sure, I know there are a few low-grade griefers out there who'd ragequit if they lost a favorite outlet, but I suspect there are a lot more newbies being lost over the years because they play for a week or two and go "It's fun, but I'm not willing to suffer base and baseless (oh, English, why do you do these things to me?) harassment in order to keep playing this game."

And keeping in mind that PVP and harassment are not the same thing - can you really blame newbs for deciding this?

I once killed a six-pack, just to watch it die.
Scien Inkunen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-05-10 15:03:15 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
[quote=Scien Inkunen]
The way things are, nothing is going to be changed on this mater. You take it or leave it.
.......

And keeping in mind that PVP and harassment are not the same thing - can you really blame newbs for deciding this?



No.

But, CCP promote that you must be in a corp so you can deal with harassment so you can fully enjoy PVP. Or you bring your friends (the more the better), they buy accounts, you make your corp and deal with the trouble. Than bigger corp wardec you, annihilate you, you buy new ships, they wardec you again, and ....
You get the picture...

Or you get really mad about that, and start harass other smaller corp and the circle start again. And in the mean time, you make friendly chat with everybody and live happily after with great cooperation on forums and in game.

You know the syndrome of double personality - one for in game use and other one for real life.
"Me??? - I am not that kind of person in real life, this is just for the game and for fun ..."

And things like that ...

Read the "Fart file" and you will understand the meaning of life !
Savage Angel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2012-05-10 15:20:59 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
Savage Angel wrote:
There are very valid reasons to have a wardec system, and to declare war on an enemy corp. There are also some very petty, silly, or plain mean reasons to declare war.

The real question with wardecs has always been: Can you tell the difference with a few lines of code?

If you can write a routine that can tell the subjective difference between a valid reason and a petty one, you will be a millionaire. If not, CCP has to chose whether they want a PvP centric game and let a few smaller corps be collateral damage, or allow enemy corps to hide in Hisec when they want to. I think we all know which way CCP will go on that decision.

I can see the reasons the system exists - huge corporations at war with each other is a big part of the theme of the game, and I'm behind that. The problem is that the mechanic as-is doesn't differentiate between rival corporations who've taken off the gloves to each other, and corporations who are simply crushing smaller, helpless newbs. I agree that a few lines of code can't tell what a player's intent may be, but they CAN at least penalize corps who are wardeccing another corp which obviously cannot mount a defense (see the first page post on relative SPs) - or at the VERY least, they could make a wardec cost enough to discourage some people for just doing it for lulz. Sure, you could still **** someone off bad enough that they could be willing to come after you despite the cost - but at the current pricetag, there is no dis-incentive to thrashing random newbs just because you're psychotic and bored.

Someone wants to kill random people, that's fine and there are already mechanics in place - ones which make sense - that allow it; you're just going to have to either take some risk yourself, or wait until those newbs grow up a bit and start wandering out into the scary parts of town. I don't understand why this is not only unacceptable to so many people, but so unacceptable that they're willing to go nuts on someone for even discussing it.


There are valid reasons for a large corp to wardec a small one. Anything done to protect small corps will be exploited to the fullest by the larger corps and alliances to shelter assets and alts from a legitimate war. Again, you are asking CCP to protect smaller groups at the expense of angering its largest and most established groups, which is not likely to happen.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#50 - 2012-05-10 15:36:02 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
but does NOT mean Eve is "All about PVP, all the time, everywhere."


your mistake. Id like to see even an OPTION for the corp BEING wardecced to have a WAY TO WIN
not pay isk to put the war off, to WIN the war

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Renivira Que
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2012-05-10 17:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Renivira Que
Well, i consider myself in the same boat as OP although i am much more newbish and kind of more carebeary. Just hanging around, deciding how much more of Eve maybe of interest to me.

I agree on most of stuff she wrote although the danger of abusing the flawed war-deck mechanics against small corps maybe overrated, the ability to do so is kind of meh. I get that you guys view most of Eve activities as a tool to compete with other players but i don't know understand why should you force that view on players who may consider those activities as fun on it's own. It's not like the two cannot coexist at all, it would bring more money to Eve developers and make your game actually more fun to play in daily routines. More-ever Eve would actually stand up to it's advertisement.

Addressing this question to someone with better knowledge of Eve mechanics, is it possible to make a middle ground between NPC Corp and a PC Corp, so that it would have some of the features that OP wants but still be not too exploitable by by the larger corps ? Some sort of limitations.
Gloomy Gus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#52 - 2012-05-12 00:31:57 UTC
This thread is much funnier now isn't it Krixtal

"DIE N***ERS1 DIE!!!" - EVENEWS24's Riverini "Gloomy Gus is literally a pocket" - Krixtal Icefluxor (former EVE Online player)
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-05-12 00:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Saia Tae Arragosa
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
My experience is that 90% of the War Decs are a joke.

The 'perpetrators' hardly ever undock, much less engage.

One has to be on one's toes though during all other normal activities, as one never knows.

I say if the War Dec initiators have not engaged one in any way within the first 7 days, the dec should be automatically cancelled.

The people who War Dec for a month and then never log in at all should recieve a 30 Day Harrassment Ban.



Actually I think it should even be more harsh. If they do not engage in 3 days it is canceled automatically at the end of 7 days whether they do finally engage or not causing them to have to re-do the whole warded but it should be at 3x the cost. If they do not engage in a week it comes with a two week ban. Seen this before where some corp from hicksville decs another and then nothing happens. Even if you try to confront the war deccing instigator they run and hide in their station or any station to avoid actually fighting.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#54 - 2012-05-12 01:20:38 UTC
Some facts:

1. People will exploit the Wardec system, no matter what they do with it.

2. It's pointless to argue with Tippia.

3. The current WarDec system will be gone soon; it will be replaced by another Wardec system with different exploits.

That said, I agree with you in some respect, but dropping your Corp for an NPC corp is not the answer. Even as a Newb, there are things you can do to make a WarDec ineffective, and if nothing else you can fight, (scrap with them), and they might even be a little intimidated by it.

You can use your watchlist and a Neutral alt to spy on them and find out who their members are. Before that, you can check their Killboards on Battleclinic to get an idea of what ships they use and who their most frequent killers are, (This should be an in-game tool; perhaps later after the WarDec changes to in-game killmails; maybe we'll get in game kill reports for players, Corps, and Alliances outside of that particular application).

Actually, it would be nice if more intelligence tools were available. A Corp must have some sort of history and registered member list that is officially logged and audited by Concord or something. Would be nice if we could get access to that much like using Locator agents to find someone.

Aside from that, you can always just move to a different section of space. It is not very likely they will follow you. It's possible they have perfectly realistic reasons for doing what they are doing. It may be territorial, or it may be that they think you are botting, or maybe they just want to grief you. It's possible that they don't realize you are a Newb, or do and want to teach you some lessons they consider important.

No telling why they're doing it really, and you can't expect anything from asking why aexcept carebear references and such. Territorial reasons should be self-explanatory, but just in case they aren't: Basically, you could be disrupting some business run by their mains/alts. Quite often these guys are alts of Industrialists and they are just used to keep people out of their market/territory. Keep their belts safe, or whatever.

If you happen to be in a mission area, then it is possible you are just another juicy target. It's also quite possible they are career griefers, though I'm not sure they still exist. Did they all get banned? I have no idea, but I think if I checked Battleclinic I'd find they didn't Honestly, the ones I used to run into, last I checked, had all moved off to other pursuits. Nullsec, Lowsec Piracy, Wormholes, etc...

Just adapt and find a way to work with it. You can't be a success as a Corporation in EVE until you get past the ability of griefers to hinder or prevent your activities. Whatever that may take is up to you; everybody presumably chooses a different path. Just remember, a Griefers first course is often denial. He is trying to prevent you from doing something; either find a way around it or find something else to do.

It may be unfortunate that is true, but EVE is a harsh game and quite often that is a very valid play style. Things would be less complicated and ambiguous without alt corps, alts, and all the other means available to deflect people from finding out your true goals, motives, and identities.
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Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#55 - 2012-05-12 01:36:17 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
...Sure, I know there are a few low-grade griefers out there who'd ragequit if they lost a favorite outlet, but I suspect there are a lot more newbies being lost over the years because they play for a week or two and go "It's fun, but I'm not willing to suffer base and baseless (oh, English, why do you do these things to me?) harassment in order to keep playing this game."
...


This is essentially true.

Many players consider it a means to keep EVE clean, others just think it's funny at the time, and still others don't even know if your some 2003's alt or a new player. Either way, it ends up with new players quitting because the game is to frustrating when up against the low skill level challenge, lack of knowledge and experience, lack of help, and other players inability to see that this is a problem.

Quite often you'll get the response that anyone could just start a new alt and be PvPing in no time. Quite often older players do start a new alt, claim they are a newb, and suitably demonstrate that fact to try and encourage newbs and/or prove them wrong. Obviously, they are completely transparent to some of us; or maybe all of us. I'm not sure. Transparent to me anyway.

Despite EVE being lauded as having a Great Community, being a Social MMO, or any number of other things, EVE is also a very antisocial game. Players don't communicate and ignore attempts at communication, some communicate agressively and are not friendly at all, others communicate through griefing and mock their targets and others. Generally speaking, antisocial behaviour in all cases, but often not recognized as such.

Most players will tell you EVE is a PvP game and rationalize that logic for every aspect of EVE, from markets to mission running and even mining. Others will say it is PvP-centric, (Queue Tippia), and generally disagree with anyone who say it isn't doesn't half to be, or that there are other ways to play and aspects to the game. I think Tippia coined the term "PvP-centric," but I might be mistaken.

Oddly enough, the friendliest players can often be found in Nullsec, even while they are podding you and sending you all the way back to some Highsec station. Most friendly discussions I've had in EVE, or occaisions where I've found someone willing to talk, 'just because', have all been in Nullsec; often right before they trapped me on some gate and blew up my ship.

Actually, I almost never get podded, but it has happened a few times. Mostly, when I avoid it I'm just lucky.

Recommend joining Red vs. Blue or a Faction Warfare Corp, or both until you skill up and get to know the ins and outs of the game.

Fly safe,

M
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gfldex
#56 - 2012-05-12 01:37:11 UTC
Cassiel Valdis wrote:
He enjoys the economic and PVE aspects, and like it or not, that's a completely valid game experience. Your Eve is PVP, and that's fine - but his is not. Just because someone else is buying his **** to PVP with does not me that he personally is playing a PVP game.


He is undercutting my prices. Please name that individual so I can send armed forces after him.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2012-05-12 01:38:51 UTC
i like the bribe concord idea, its like concord war decs you, but never attacks you unless you do something illegal.
gfldex
#58 - 2012-05-12 01:43:38 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
PvP requires some kind of engagement.....or so I was always led to believe.


Your capacity to read the handbook is lacking:

Quote:
The term can be used to describe anything from ship to ship combat to market competition against your peers.


Third sentence in the first paragraph.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
Shian Yang
#59 - 2012-05-12 02:05:57 UTC
Greetings capsuleers,

New Eden would be so much better if CONCORD gave up, mothballed their ships and left for Flosten Paradise or similar. When the artificial security blanket of CONCORD and High Security is removed; we'll see capsuleers understanding their role as immortals within New Eden.

You are meant to stride amongst the stars as a god, capsuleer. You pilot a vessel the size of old Earth cities, you rain the might of suns down upon your foes and haul the wealth of nations in your holds.

You are not meant to snivel because you were war-decced without even being shot at.

Live up to who you are. It is your destiny; seize it and carve out an empire for yourself.

Shian Yang
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#60 - 2012-05-12 03:56:28 UTC
gfldex wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
PvP requires some kind of engagement.....or so I was always led to believe.


Your capacity to read the handbook is lacking:

Quote:
The term can be used to describe anything from ship to ship combat to market competition against your peers.


Third sentence in the first paragraph.


You do realize that CCPs evelopedia guys are not just CCP employees but ISDs that do not work for CCP, and in any case, they are using the player definition of the term for the sake of that article/stub so you're claim is rather invalid.

..not that it really matters - just sayin'
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