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Datacores explained - CCP
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#61 - 2012-05-10 05:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia, I believe I requested that you figure out the population split between NPC Null, which receives things like the Drone Nerf, and PC Alliance Null, which receives things like Moon Goo, several days ago.

Did you forget?
Never heard of it. What does that have to do with anything?

Mara Rinn wrote:
Can you give me an example of a value accumulation system which doesn't require player interaction to continue accumulating value after value is extracted, but does have a defined end time, but is still "passive" in your sense?
If RP only accumulated when you're online.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2012-05-10 05:44:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia, I believe I requested that you figure out the population split between NPC Null, which receives things like the Drone Nerf, and PC Alliance Null, which receives things like Moon Goo, several days ago.

Did you forget?
Never heard of it. What does that have to do with anything?


I feared as much.

You entered scary space and had one of the Goon zombies suck your brain out, didn't you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#63 - 2012-05-10 05:46:49 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
I feared as much.

You entered scary space and had one of the Goon zombies suck your brain out, didn't you?
What the hell are you on about? Ugh
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2012-05-10 05:58:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
I feared as much.

You entered scary space and had one of the Goon zombies suck your brain out, didn't you?
What the hell are you on about? Ugh


Have you even read what you've posted in this thread?

The evidence of a Goon zombie attack is there for all too see. Inability to understand the common definition of words, a loss of basic listening function...

At least you haven't started muttering "tinfoil, tinfoil... tiiiiinnnnnnnfoil" in that horrible moan they have.

Gives me the shivers just thinking about it.
Andrey Wartooth
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2012-05-10 06:01:28 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
I feared as much.

You entered scary space and had one of the Goon zombies suck your brain out, didn't you?
What the hell are you on about? Ugh


Have you even read what you've posted in this thread?

The evidence of a Goon zombie attack is there for all too see. Inability to understand the common definition of words, a loss of basic listening function...

At least you haven't started muttering "tinfoil, tinfoil... tiiiiinnnnnnnfoil" in that horrible moan they have.

Gives me the shivers just thinking about it.


Look at this guy here not making any sense.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#66 - 2012-05-10 06:03:52 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Have you even read what you've posted in this thread?
Yes. The question remains: what the hell are you on about? You are making absolutely no sense. Ugh

Do you want some kind of answer? To what? Why? In what context? What does it have to do with anything?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#67 - 2012-05-10 06:11:31 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
I feared as much.

You entered scary space and had one of the Goon zombies suck your brain out, didn't you?
What the hell are you on about? Ugh



You are either pretending to not know what he means or are looking for a bait point. In simple english, it's called a double standard. They say it's about passive income when what they really mean is it's high sec income.

CCP seem to be trying to create a New Eden that has minimal to no resources left inside the empires. A New Eden that imports its raw materials from low security and null security regions, where they can then be processed and manufactured. It's a sound idea based on Urban and Rural principals. The trouble is, they don't seem to have the ability or desire to explain themselves.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#68 - 2012-05-10 06:17:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Skydell wrote:
You are either pretending to not know what he means or are looking for a bait point.
No, I'm asking him what he's on about since he suddenly sprung a question on me from out of nowhere and presumed I had an answer.

Quote:
They say it's about passive income when what they really mean is it's high sec income.
You mean side from them wanting to fix all kinds of passive income?

Quote:
CCP seem to be trying to create a New Eden that has minimal to no resources left inside the empires.
No, they seem to want to create a New Eden where the rewards any particular area has to offer is somewhat on par with the risks involved in living in that area. As for moving things out of empire space, no, or they wouldn't have chosen to move bulk RP production to factional warfare.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2012-05-10 06:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Have you even read what you've posted in this thread?
Yes. The question remains: what the hell are you on about? You are making absolutely no sense. Ugh

Do you want some kind of answer? To what? Why? In what context? What does it have to do with anything?


Just because you have decided some arbitrary definition of passive so you can explain the world in black and white terms and make yourself happy doesn't mean that anyone else here uses the definition of "passive" that you have created.

I am generously assuming you are not being a sophist like the Goon Zombies here.

For most people, hitting "Install Program" and "Submit" once every 14 days to collect PI is passive. The fact that you have decided that one minute every 14 days makes PI "not passive" is irrelevant for most people.

Your definition of "passive" isn't what Soundwave was trying to "fix" either. If it was, then Soundwave could have decided to make a "Research panel" where people had to "schedule" datacore production every 14 days from anywhere in the universe. I guarantee the datacore farmers wouldn't have cared.

If they had had to do it once every day, then most of them probably would have been pretty okay with it to.

The point was never about "passive" income as you define it.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#70 - 2012-05-10 06:24:54 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Can you give me an example of a value accumulation system which doesn't require player interaction to continue accumulating value after value is extracted, but does have a defined end time, but is still "passive" in your sense?
If RP only accumulated when you're online.


Okay, bizarro world hypothetical examples aside, are there any systems which work like that ingame at the moment?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#71 - 2012-05-10 06:25:10 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Just because you have decided some arbitrary definition of passive
Yeah, see… “non-participative” isn't really an arbitrary definition — it's what the word means.

Quote:
For most people, hitting "Install Program" and "Submit" once every 14 days to collect PI is passive.
That's their problem. The simple fact remains that noting about PI is passive or that, if it is, then everything in EVE is passive and the word no longer has any meaning.

Quote:
Your definition of "passive" isn't what Soundwave was trying to "fix" either.
Yes it is. That's why the RP accumulation will be better done through something that requires constant activity. Whether FW is the right avenue for this is a different matter, but the change from passive to active matches pretty much exactly what I'm talking about: a change from non-participative and uninvolved to participatory and involved.

Quote:
The point was never about "passive" income as you define it.
So why are they only changing the passive part of the RP accumulation and pushing it towards being an active endeavour?

You still didn't answer the questions, by the way…
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#72 - 2012-05-10 06:27:10 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Okay, bizarro world hypothetical examples aside, are there any systems which work like that ingame at the moment?
Not that I can think of.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#73 - 2012-05-10 06:28:58 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
The point was never about "passive" income as you define it.


I suspect the situation was more, "we need to remove this perpetual motion machine from the game" combined with "we need more shiny things to offer people as a reward for participating in our skinner box activity called Faction Warfare." The logical outcome is offering datacores through FW instead of research agents.

So it would be truer to say, "the issue is about more than just perpetual value accumulation." The current behaviour of R&D agents has been on CCP Soundwave's "not quite right" list for a while.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#74 - 2012-05-10 06:29:52 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Okay, bizarro world hypothetical examples aside, are there any systems which work like that ingame at the moment?
Not that I can think of.


So why would you introduce a system which encourages merely logging in? Surely you would want to encourage activity?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2012-05-10 06:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Tippia wrote:
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Tippia, I believe I requested that you figure out the population split between NPC Null, which receives things like the Drone Nerf, and PC Alliance Null, which receives things like Moon Goo, several days ago.

Did you forget?
Never heard of it. What does that have to do with anything?.

I can see where you might run into problems fulfilling his request because there is NPC 0.0 space (Venal) that is dripping with tech moons, while there are zero NPC drone regions.

So okay the population split of NPC 0.0 dwellers effected by the drone nerf (zero because they don't exist) vs Venal residents (some) turned out to be easy to calculate after all.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#76 - 2012-05-10 06:37:43 UTC
Greyscale Dash wrote:
Passive income must die.


You are absolutely correct passive income must die. Lets start killing off them moon harvesters
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#77 - 2012-05-10 06:40:55 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Skydell wrote:
You are either pretending to not know what he means or are looking for a bait point.
No, I'm asking him what he's on about since he suddenly sprung a question on me from out of nowhere and presumed I had an answer.

Quote:
They say it's about passive income when what they really mean is it's high sec income.
You mean side from them wanting to fix all kinds of passive income?

Quote:
CCP seem to be trying to create a New Eden that has minimal to no resources left inside the empires.
No, they seem to want to create a New Eden where the rewards any particular area has to offer is somewhat on par with the risks involved in living in that area. As for moving things out of empire space, no, or they wouldn't have chosen to move bulk RP production to factional warfare.


I don't buy that whole risk and reward crap. Blobswarm hasn't had a moon contested in two years and everyone knows it, yet Technetium is still at 200K.

I live in Toronto and everyone in Canada hates us because we are the big evil city. It's helps explain why the hill billies out in Deklien are always shaking their pitch forks at high sec though. I'd be mad too if I had to live in the sticks.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#78 - 2012-05-10 06:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Tippia wrote:
The simple fact remains that noting about PI is passive or that, if it is, then everything in EVE is passive and the word no longer has any meaning.


Research Agents are every bit as active as PI or Invention: you do lead up work, sit back and wait, then collect product. The fundamental difference between the activities is that PI and other industrial activities have a finite duration: they are temporary effort, or "project work" in real-world terms. R&D agents are perpetual, and are more like "administration" in the real world. If research agents were to be commissioned to perform research projects which have certain expected outcomes over various durations, there would be no fundamental difference between these types of activity. Even better, the Research Project Management skill would actually mean something :)

If this nerf was actually about moving from perpetual to temporary modes of value accumulation, that is the only change that would need to be made.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2012-05-10 06:44:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Skydell wrote:
BPO - Cost is mine, absorbed
run copies - Cost absorbed

Copy requires 2 types of datacore to invent x 2 each
I run 6 Invention jobs at a time. (All skills related to the blueprints are 4 and 5)

Cost of datacores is 200K each average. (If I get those datacores myself, I still count them as cost assuming I had bought them)

24 datacores every time I run inventions. Once a day for me, they take 12.5 hrs and I can't be arsed to log in at 4 in the morning to restart them. 4.8 mill in datacore costs to run. On average I get 2 that come out, 4 will fail. Some times 3, once I even got 4 but the stamp is on 2 of 6 or 33% suckcess. That's 2.4 million ISK per invention in cost, before materials.

You guys can do whatever you want to datacores. That cost is built in to the price of the T2 Items I build. If my margin isn't met, the item will sit in the hangar until I can sell it at a profit and I won't make more above that cost. If that additional cost is doubled, so be it. My price margins are based on market value of the cores. I don't care what I paid for them, that's the only way I can manufacture and sell and not turn the entire market in to a reproc mule.

Keep in mind, every hr of the day people are being a carebear they are not being a PvP l33tboi. While you say you don't like passive income, your actions also say you don't like carebears. So try talking out of one side of your mouth or the other and stop with all the rhetoric. Everything I just showed you is passive income. You think I actually farm my mats? No, I assure you I don't. Its all passive income and it won't change because you guys made datacores active income: ie: more carebearing.

Hope that helps.

your assumptions regarding the elasticity of demand for T2 items (or rather the total lack thereof) may or may not be true,

personally I have a hard time believing demand is perfectly inelastic (and if it isn't you won't be able to pass the cost increase on fully to consumers) - before buying a new vagabond I always look at the price of cynabals.

.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2012-05-10 06:48:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
So why would you introduce a system which encourages merely logging in?
Such as?

Quote:
Research Agents are every bit as active as PI or Invention
Then you should bug report it, because I have never been forced to restart my R&D agents like I have with my PI, nor have I been forced to (re)set them up or load them with resources like I have with my PI and invention. Unlike PI and invention, R&D agents require zero interaction to keep accumulating their output.

So no, they are not passive in the slightest; RP accumulation is. You can stop mincing words about it, because you're not that stupid.

Skydell wrote:
I don't buy that whole risk and reward crap.
Then you'll have a lot of problems understanding many of the tweaks and changes that has, does, and will happen in the game, such as the move away from passive income streams.